God Visited Original Sin Upon All Of Mankind Because . . .

[Miles]

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. . . Because?


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[nobspeople]

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. . . Because?


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He's a D-Bag?
In all honestly, people can point the finger at others but if God's the ultimate of everything, everything (good and bad) rolls up to his responsibility to me.
I wonder how much of our own decisions are are own, if God exists?

God could have created ANYTHING , ANY WAY he wanted. But he chose to do it this way, knowing what would happen. And yet we're expected to bow down to him? Really now...seriously?
Nope.
My god doesn't work like that.

[otseng]

He's a D-Bag?

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[theophile]

God Visited Original Sin Upon All Of Mankind ... Because?

I'm not sure the question is a fair one since God didn't visit original sin upon us. Also, the concept of original sin (at least in its popular, Augustinian form) isn't really in the bible. But there is something very close to it going on there, as well as a counter narrative (of redemption) that undoes it. So let me answer the question that way, i.e., by trying to reorient to the real meaning of original sin (and more importantly, redemption).

The point, I think, is not that we are all born sinful because of Adam's original sin, but rather that we are all caught up in sin (/ a fallen world), and are made suspect because of it.

Note the two aspects to what I said..

1) Being born into a fallen world, our worldview is by default distorted, and we are more likely to sin. We think things, believe things, and do things because that is the way of the world (and in a fallen world, that means sin). For instance, born into a world that subjects women, we will be more likely to subject women. Born into a world that accepts slavery, we will be more likely to accept slavery... In the words of Bruce Cockburn, we are lovers in a dangerous time, and must kick at the darkness 'till it bleeds daylight.

2) Because one sinned (Adam), we are all made suspect. This logic works both ways (as Paul describes), but first operates on sin in the bible. That is, Adam's sin casts all humankind in doubt as to whether we are worthy of our place on this earth. This is no different from taking a bite of an apple only to find it rotten on the inside: this casts all of the other apples in the batch in doubt. Whether they are rotten or not, you will bite into the next one more cautiously (if you don't throw the whole batch out). And likely test it first...

This second aspect above all is the biblical concept of original sin. It is the hyperbolic logic of how one can cast all in doubt. And it is precisely what Jesus (Job, and Abraham...) show the counter logic of. That is, just as one can cast all in doubt, so one can redeem, and show the potential in us all.

That is why Abraham was tested. Why Job was tested. Why Jesus was tested. To show the potential in us all and create the counter logic to original sin... i.e., a redemptive wave that automatically justifies us all / our place in this world...

Paul puts it perfectly in Romans 5. E.g.,

Just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all.

So rethinking original sin that way, which I think is just a common sense, highly relatable way to do so, the OP question makes no sense. i.e., God did not visit original sin upon us. If anything, God visited original redemption upon us through Jesus Christ.

[Miles]

God Visited Original Sin Upon All Of Mankind ... Because?

I'm not sure the question is a fair one since God didn't visit original sin upon us.

Not in those specific words, but it's certainly implied.

Genesis 8:21
21 The Lord smelled these sacrifices, and it pleased him. The Lord said to himself, “I will never again curse the earth as a way to punish people. People are evil from the time they are young, but I will never again destroy every living thing on the earth as I did this time.

Romans 5:12
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because wall sinned—

And, unless one rejects Augustine Christian doctrine, it does apply. Know of any Christian denomination that rejects it?

Also, the concept of original sin (at least in its popular, Augustinian form) isn't really in the bible.

Kind of like the Trinity. The Bible is inerrant, We are saved by faith alone. Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins. And only Christians can be saved.

The point, I think, is not that we are all born sinful because of Adam's original sin, but rather that we are all caught up in sin (/ a fallen world), and are made suspect because of it.

Semantics. Semantics. Semantics. And why would god, who would be the only one who really cared, suspect us when he's omniscient and would know?

Note the two aspects to what I said..

1) Being born into a fallen world, our worldview is by default distorted, and we are more likely to sin.

Have no idea what would constitute a "fallen world" other than one in which everyone is beset with sin. Exactly what is a "fallen world"?

We think things, believe things, and do things because that is the way of the world (and in a fallen world, that means sin).

And we do these things because we can't do otherwise. In the Christian deterministic world sin is just one of the inevitablities.

2) Because one sinned (Adam), we are all made suspect.

And your source for this is Chapter ____ verse _____ .


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[theophile]

[Replying to Miles in post #24]

I'm not sure the question is a fair one since God didn't visit original sin upon us.

Not in those specific words, but it's certainly implied.

If you had read my post a little further, you would have seen that I acknowledge something very similar to the popular concept of original sin going on in the bible. And I cited Romans 5 too - which is probably your best source. But even Romans 5 counters your point.

i.e., it was through ONE MAN, not God. So maybe you should read your own references a little more closely as well.

And, unless one rejects Augustine Christian doctrine, it does apply. Know of any Christian denomination that rejects it?

What are we debating here? The acceptance of Augustine's teaching as church doctrine? That is very different from what the OP set up. So I'm not sure what your point is here, unless it is that we should accept popular concepts as true. I accept that there may very well be something to them, but that was never in question.

Also, the concept of original sin (at least in its popular, Augustinian form) isn't really in the bible.

Kind of like the Trinity. The Bible is inerrant, We are saved by faith alone. Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins. And only Christians can be saved.

Did I say anything about the trinity, inerrancy of the bible, salvation through faith alone, or the scope of God's saving grace? On the last, I suppose I did. But you'll notice I scoped it to ALL people. Not just Christians.

But again, are you trying to have a discussion or are you throwing out random, off topic points to stop discussion? I would tend to agree that these concepts aren't in the bible either. They are popular concepts common throughout Christian circles with theological roots that we should explore, but that's it. They shouldn't be taken for granted.

The point, I think, is not that we are all born sinful because of Adam's original sin, but rather that we are all caught up in sin (/ a fallen world), and are made suspect because of it.

Semantics. Semantics. Semantics. And why would god, who would be the only one who really cared, suspect us when he's omniscient and would know?

No, that is not just semantics. There is a BIG difference between being born already a sinner because of some past original sin, and what I said. What I said 1) actually makes logical sense and 2) leaves a wide open door to a human being / humankind that is WITHOUT sin.

Also, are you capable of making a point or asking a question that doesn't come preloaded with bias and presupposition? Who said that God is omniscient in this way? Why would God test Abraham if God knew what the outcome would be? ...

If your interpretation / understanding makes no logical sense, you should try again versus just assuming it and pointing out all the incoherencies that it generates. Now, if your point is to dissuade a Christian who holds to such popular notions of an omniscient, omnipotent Super Being out there, then sure, have at it. There is definitely a time and place for it. But that, again, was not the question set by the OP.

Or, if it was part of the question, then you should make all of your assumptions clear so we know where we're starting from versus you just assuming them of anyone you meet.

Have no idea what would constitute a "fallen world" other than one in which everyone is beset with sin. Exactly what is a "fallen world"?

It's the world ushered in by sin and that is described quite well in Genesis 3. A world where we now hide or setup barriers between each other and God out of fear / self preservation. A world where we blame others to save ourselves and create rifts in our relationships (setting one against the other). A world where we seek to rule over our wives and other human beings as a result (rule or be ruled). A world where the earth itself resists us, babies are reluctant to enter, and there is increasing enmity between human and animal-kind.

The hyperbolic language of Genesis 3 aside, it's a world where we have departed from our original calling in Genesis 1 to create the conditions for life in this world, and where we instead make life harder / create the conditions for death. It's a world of separation and one against the other versus a world of mutuality and helpfulness.

2) Because one sinned (Adam), we are all made suspect.

And your source for this is Chapter ____ verse _____ .

Did you miss my citation of Romans 5? You cited from it yourself so I'm not sure why you're asking... But okay, let me do so again (verse 18 if that helps):

Just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all.

See that? One trespass results in condemnation for all. That's precisely what I am saying, and describing the very clear, relatable logic of. (Versus jumping to some magical attribution of sinfulness to every human being from the moment of birth, which simply makes no sense no matter how popular a concept it may be.)

[Revelations won]

My position is that God’s plans do not fail. God makes no mistakes.

My position is that mortality and the fall are a part and parcel of God’s plan of salvation and exaltation for all mankind. For Christ our redeemer was foreordained by God the Father to this very mission before the foundations of the earth were laid as so testified in the scriptures.

The certain need for a savior and redeemer was clearly established and the plan was in place long before the fall.

Mortality was a critical part of that plan and was engineered and designed as a test to each and every one of us to carry out the full exercise of agency which allowed all to either choose faith and obedience to Christ and receive of the great atoning sacrifice or choose captivity and spiritual death and be subject to the devil.


As I see it no one is ever denied salvation because of the fall including Adam and Eve.

May I suggest that if Adam had not made the choice he did, that he then would have made God a liar. For there would have been no need for our Savior and redeemer.

Was Mortal life a part and parcel of God's eternal plan for us?

Was Mortality a divinely appointed element of God's plan?

Does not mortality provide us the greatest opportunity to exercise the divine GIFT OF AGENCY to prepare and prove ourselves worthy of his greatest blessings?

God the Father sent His only begotten Son into this world to be tested and tried as we are tested and tried. Are we greater than He???

If anyone has a greater plan than this, then please present it and show how it would work for our best interest?

Kind regards,
RW

[DBSmith]

"....Original Sin....Because....." we are to be tested

We lived as spirits in Heaven (first estate) before coming to this earth with a mortal body Job 38:4-7 --> Jude 6 --> Rev 12:9,11 Jer 1:5
Heavenly Father wanted his heavenly spirits to live on earth in a body & grow and spiritually mature and be like him --> Acts 17:29 Heb 12:9

(Gen 3:19 --> body turns to dust --> Eccl 12:7 (how can spirits return from earth to heaven if they weren't there in the beginning)

spirits were to be tested to see who would perform obediently before receiving all that God hath --> 2 Thess 2:9-13 --> 1 Pet 1:2 --> Eph 1:4-5
---> gotta have a love of the truth that you might be saved

spirits that were not obedient on earth when they were totally free to do so, will not be blessed with power to progress & do things in heaven

Adam & Eve are responsible for the Fall. Eve figured it out first and got Adam to join her. They realized they were naked: sexual attraction --> as a result she become the mother of all living upon this earth and the both of them taught their children the ways of God ...and they lived righteously until Satan's influence was able to gain control over the hearts of some men and women. So, the Fall, St Augustine's so-called original sin, was mankind's separation from God, physical and spiritual, being kicked out of the Garden and into the mortal world.

We are born into mortality --> Deut 32:8 --> Acts 17:26 --> predetermined in heaven for all His spirit children
all receive the Light of Christ to quickly discern right from wrong John 1:4 --> I John 1:7 --> Phil 1:19 (?)
and will be judge accordingly

all who are seeking to choose the right can receive a witness from the Holy Ghost of the truthfulness of things in our lives --> 1 John 3:19-22

2 Cor 1:6-7 we choose and act in faith, not by what our sight and other senses tell us....mankind created science/philosophy...not God
we can build a life with family and community unto God by earning a living....or gain riches by science and philosophies
some are able to earn good livings and become rich for God's purposes...not just for carnal gain above others
science is not evil, we use it to better our existence.....similarly neither is money evil, but the love of money is

And we all sin, being in this mortal body with all its needs and desires to maintain as we dwell upon the earth. In the Garden of Eden Heavenly Father and His Son promised Adam and Eve a Savior, Gen 3:15: Jesus dying for our sins, bitten by the serpent ....and the Resurrected Jesus destroying all evil bruising serpent's head (concussion to head: death) and restoring the earth to its previous glory like unto the Garden of Eden.....then Kingdom of God comes down on earth.

And the Savior was sent to do these things because our Heavenly Father wants us to return to Him and become like unto Jesus by choosing the right and spiritually maturing John 3:16 John 13:17 John 15:16

So, we have a way to have confidence towards God in keeping his commandments knowing we can repent and be forgiven as we continue faithful in all things to receive more of the Spirit each day and grow in faith....

And we all die and will be judged according to our choices ....and according to our life's circumstances and what knowledge we had during our lives

And those who didn't come to know the gospel of Jesus Christ nor the ways of God, they will have a chance after they die.....Jesus visited them and taught them His gospel before he ascended to our Heavenly Father ---> 1 Pet 3:18-20 --> 1 Pet 4:6

Then comes the Resurrection of the dead with everyone receiving that which they were willing to receive here on earth: judged according to their works: good or evil, etc.....

So, here is a quick minimally referenced summary of such a plan, per the last post's request

[Revelations won]

Dear DBSmith,

Sorry for the delay in responding to your well presented post.

Thank you for your very well articulated post. I agree wholeheartedly with you.

I think it is very cool that we were sent to this earth to prove ourselves worthy of The Fathers greatest blessings of exaltation in his kingdom.

God never said it would be easy for any of us, but worth it.

Kind regards,RW