God Visited Original Sin Upon All Of Mankind Because . . .

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God Visited Original Sin Upon All Of Mankind Because . . .

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.


. . . Because?



.

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Re: God Visited Original Sin Upon All Of Mankind Because . . .

Post #11

Post by 2timothy316 »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:04 am
Revelations won wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:55 pm Hi everyone,

I think 2timothy316 brought out a good point that may be worth discussing.

"You mean that Adam was aware that in eating the apple all those to follow on earth would be sinful? (That he knew what sin was?) Kind of doubtful wouldn't you say."

By the way, could someone quote the scripture that says Adam rebelled against god? (Genesis 3:12) As I see it Adam was asked a direct question and he gave a direct and honest answer.
"Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.” - Gen 2:16
"He began eating it." - Gen 3:6

There were no words exchanged to denote Adam's rebellion. Much like if you tell a rebellious child "don't you dare throw that ball in the house!" Then they look directly at you and throw a ball anyway. An onlooker would need no words to be exchanged to note the child's rebellion.
I would ask what would have happened if Adam had not partaken of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
The best Bible educated guess from me would be that if Adam rejected the fruit then only Eve would have been stuck with the consequences of sin. By rejecting the fruit he would have stood on Jehovah God's side and kept His commandment. Keeping his spiritual bond with his Creator. Eve would have severed her bond with her Creator. Like a fan that you pull the plug from it's power source, though it might spin for awhile. Eventually it stops moving.
Also, I find no scripture that Adam claimed he was given a defective wife. That appears to be an unsupported assumption by some.
Adam blamed his wife for his misdeed and then says it was God who gave him his wife so implying it's God's fault. See post 9 viewtopic.php?p=1022218#p1022218
Does Adam,s choice deny anyone from receiving salvation, the resurrection and redemption from sin provided by the Savior?
No. Only a person's personal choices can do that. Hebrews 10:26, 27 and James 1:14, 15.

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Re: God Visited Original Sin Upon All Of Mankind Because . . .

Post #12

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:54 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:14 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:53 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:44 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:29 pm .


. . . Because?



.
First, God didn't put sin on us, Adam put sin on us.
You mean that Adam was aware that in eating the apple all those to follow on earth would be sinful? (That he knew what sin was?) Kind of doubtful wouldn't you say.

.
According to the Bible "Adam was not deceived." - 1 Tim 2:14. He knew what would happen if he rebelled. In the Bible, they didn't feel the weight of their wrong doing until Adam ate not eve. (Gen 3:6-7) Only after Adam ate did both feel the effects of sinning against God. Genesis 3:17 says that Adam was more interested in listening to his wife than God. Adam even tried to blame Jehovah saying that He had given him a defective wife. (Gen 3:12) Yet according to 1 Tim 2:14 he didn't fool Jehovah. He knew what what was in Adam's heart.
Doesn't say a thing about Adam knowing anything.

This is where critical thinking skills come into an analysis of a text.

We Jehovah Witnesses do not need everything to be spelled out to us with the explicit words being written befor we understand somethjng is being communicated. For those that cannot do this it may be difficult to grasp how one comes to a particular conclusion.



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Re: God Visited Original Sin Upon All Of Mankind Because . . .

Post #13

Post by 2timothy316 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:40 am
Miles wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:54 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:14 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:53 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:44 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:29 pm .


. . . Because?



.
First, God didn't put sin on us, Adam put sin on us.
You mean that Adam was aware that in eating the apple all those to follow on earth would be sinful? (That he knew what sin was?) Kind of doubtful wouldn't you say.

.
According to the Bible "Adam was not deceived." - 1 Tim 2:14. He knew what would happen if he rebelled. In the Bible, they didn't feel the weight of their wrong doing until Adam ate not eve. (Gen 3:6-7) Only after Adam ate did both feel the effects of sinning against God. Genesis 3:17 says that Adam was more interested in listening to his wife than God. Adam even tried to blame Jehovah saying that He had given him a defective wife. (Gen 3:12) Yet according to 1 Tim 2:14 he didn't fool Jehovah. He knew what what was in Adam's heart.
Doesn't say a thing about Adam knowing anything.

This is where critical thinking skills come into an analysis of a text.

We Jehovah Witnesses do not need everything to be spelled out to us with the explicit words being written befor we understand somethjng is being communicated. For those that cannot do this it may be difficult to grasp how one comes to a particular conclusion.



JW
People use critical thinking all the time in every day life too. I don't have to tell people that I can read English. Folks figure that out on their own. No one is asking others if they took a breath of air today. People know living people need to breath air.

Thus if the Bible says, "Adam was not deceived" this means that what Adam did wasn't the result of a ruse by Satan or Eve. His act was thoughtful and deliberate. He was not tricked into eating the fruit, he did it with eyes wide open. Eve was told and thought she wouldn't die, Adam was not deceived by that lie. He knew the consequences. The only speculation is his detailed motive as to why he ate it. Perhaps, he would rather die than be told what to do. I come to this conclusion only because I've heard many people say such things to me in my lifetime. I even had person tell me that they would rather die than live forever if they were not allowed to get drunk. Anywho, we cannot be sure as to his exact motive. What is not speculation and what is sure is that he did know what he was doing.

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Re: God Visited Original Sin Upon All Of Mankind Because . . .

Post #14

Post by PinSeeker »

2timothy316 wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:14 pm According to the Bible "Adam was not deceived." - 1 Tim 2:14. He knew what would happen if he rebelled. In the Bible, they didn't feel the weight of their wrong doing until Adam ate not eve. (Gen 3:6-7) Only after Adam ate did both feel the effects of sinning against God. Genesis 3:17 says that Adam was more interested in listening to his wife than God. Adam even tried to blame Jehovah saying that He had given him a defective wife. (Gen 3:12) Yet according to 1 Tim 2:14 he didn't fool Jehovah. He knew what what was in Adam's heart.
Not really arguing with what you say here 2timothy316, but...

This is interesting to talk about. I don't think Adam was "more interested" in listening to Eve than God. I think he was just a bit wimpy -- not a good leader, or just failed in that important role at that critical moment -- and did not keep his wife from deception even though he could have and knew he should have. On a human level... as well as understanding the plight of a husband :)... it is quite easy to understand that he was avoiding confrontation and, in a sense, taking the easy way out. This is what I hear in Genesis 3:17. And that makes perfect sense; all us husbands are guilty of that from time to time.

Too, rather than Adam trying to "blame Jehovah," while I don't really disagree with that on its face (because that's what he did) it seems to me that he knew what he did was wrong, that he knew he didn't fulfill his calling from God as a husband, and his reaction before God was a sort of defense mechanism, an attempt to remove his own guilt (which he knew was impossible) and shift it to God. He knew he was guilty, and not God.

At any rate, I think we agree on this: Adam REALLY sinned. Like, badly. :)

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Re: God Visited Original Sin Upon All Of Mankind Because . . .

Post #15

Post by 2timothy316 »

PinSeeker wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:54 am I don't think Adam was "more interested" in listening to Eve than God.
My conclusion comes from Genesis 3:12 were Jehovah said to Adam, “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’.
There is clear contrast in that scripture between who's voice Adam was willing to listen to and act on. It's as if Jehovah is saying, 'You will listen and do to what she says but not listen and do what I say. Because you are more willing to do what she says verses what I say then here is what is going to happen'.

To conclude Adam was 'wimpy' would be speculation. Perhaps he was but that was his choice. Perhaps he was making himself a wimp by spending a lot time imagining to eat the fruit. James 1:14 says, "Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire." So by him dwelling on his own desire for so long, he made himself so much of a wimp that when Eve offered, he gladly took it.

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Re: God Visited Original Sin Upon All Of Mankind Because . . .

Post #16

Post by PinSeeker »

2timothy316 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:04 am
PinSeeker wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:54 am I don't think Adam was "more interested" in listening to Eve than God.
My conclusion comes from Genesis 3:12 were Jehovah said to Adam, “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’.
There is clear contrast in that scripture between who's voice Adam was willing to listen to and act on. It's as if Jehovah is saying, 'You will listen and do to what she says but not listen and do what I say. Because you are more willing to do what she says verses what I say then here is what is going to happen'.
Actually, that's Genesis 3:17, not 3:12. I don't really have a problem with your conclusion, per se, but if you want to accuse me of "speculation," you would have to say the same thing about yourself. My conclusion comes from Genesis 3:17, too, and it is at least every bit as valid; I think much more so, obviously. In a sense, I agree that Adam was "more interested" in Eve than God, but this was not really his motivation for doing what he did. It is clear that Adam was really more interested in himself, and avoiding conflict with the wife God gave him. He was selfish, prideful, and really idolatrous, in that he idolized his own comfort. He was weak and did not do what he knew was right (because God had told him). And this would fit with really all the rest of the Bible and what it says about the condition of man, that "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned -- every one -- to his own way..." (Isaiah 53:6).
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:04 am To conclude Adam was 'wimpy' would be speculation.
Quite obviously, he failed in his obligation to God to lead. That's a failure due to weakness. Paul makes this very clear what Adam knew regarding the responsibility of husbands with regard to their wives in Ephesians 5:25-27... the husband is to love his wife so that she will be cleansed (by God) by the washing of water with the word, so that she might be presented in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. Adam failed in this, because of his weakness.
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:04 am Perhaps he was but that was his choice.
Agreed.
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:04 am Perhaps he was making himself a wimp by spending a lot time imagining to eat the fruit.
Uh, what? No, he failed in his responsibility as Eve's husband.
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:04 am James 1:14 says, "Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire."
Yes, I think this is very applicable to Adam in Eden. And, of course, to all of us.
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:04 am So by him dwelling on his own desire for so long, he made himself so much of a wimp that when Eve offered, he gladly took it.
Isn't this speculation, too? The clear fact is that he failed in his responsibility as Eve's husband, among other things. Because he was weak, not as good a leader as he should have been and was called to be, and avoided confrontation. Among other things. We all agree -- you, me, and JW -- on the fact that this is where critical thinking skills come into an analysis of a text, and we do not need everything to be spelled out to us with the explicit words being written before we understand something is being clearly communicated.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: God Visited Original Sin Upon All Of Mankind Because . . .

Post #17

Post by Revelations won »

Dear JW and all others,

I think it is very unfortunate that so very many are so quick to pass judgement on Adam without knowing all the facts and understanding of their status in the Garden of Eden.

I trust that all who make such railing accusations against our great Father Adam and Mother Eve are prepared to receive their own final judgement in turn based on their own level of judgemental accusations.

The book of Genesis covers a period of religious history covering several thousand years in just 78 pages. After having studied Genesis for over 600 times, I for one find the accounts given in that book to be very, very abbreviated in the extreme. The account of the creative periods, as well as the the marvelous lifetime of Adam being shown to be 930 years to be presented in less than 7 pages!

I find it amazing to see how some can arrive at such condemning conclusions with only a little over 6 Pages covering 930 years of Adam’s lifetime!

With such spartan details would it not be a much wiser course for us to be very careful to withhold railing accusations and judgements until the time when God reveals to us “the rest of the story”?

I would suggest you consider the following questions regarding Adam and Eve:

1. Prior to partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is there any evidence that Adam and Eve had any knowledge of the concept of “good or evil”?

2. Prior to their partaking of the fruit is there any evidence that they fully understood the consequences and meaning thereof by partaking of the fruit of this “very good tree”?

3. If they had no prior knowledge of good or evil, then who appointed us as descendants to so dishonor and harshly judge our first Father and Mother?

4. Is there any evidence that they were raised in the Garden of Eden as children?

5. In Genesis chapter 1 is there any indiction that Adam or Eve were created as children?

6. Does Genesis chapter 1 show where they we living prior to being placed in the garden?

7. Is it not self evident from Genesis that the eyes of their understanding were NOT OPENED until AFTER they partook of the fruit?

8. Was not God very merciful and kind by making them clothing after the fall?

Genesis 3:
21
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

9. The account regarding Adam and Eve is shown in the following:

Genesis 1:


26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Did not the Lord also according to verse 29 give unto Adam and Eve the fruit of EVERY TREE for meat?

10. Did not God also according to verse 31 testify that “EVERYTHING” which He made was “VERY GOOD” ?

11. Did not God also give unto Adam and Eve the agency and right to use the fruit of “EVERY TREE FOR MEAT”?

12. Did God intend for Adam and Eve to remain in ignorance for all eternity to not know the difference between good and evil?

13. Thereafter in chapter 2 God, after all things were created, then He took Adam and his wife from an unknown location and planted them in the Garden of Eden.

14. It is also evident that Adam and Eve and the earth and all things therein were spiritually created before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. Where were they created?

15. In Genesis chapter 2 we are given evidence that there was a spiritual creation preceding the nature creation:

Genesis 2:


4
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.


7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9
And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

My position is that God’s plans do not fail. God makes no mistakes.

My position is that mortality and the fall are a part and parcel of God’s plan of salvation and exaltation for all mankind. For Christ our redeemer was foreordained by God the Father to this very mission before the foundations of the earth were laid as so testified in the scriptures.

The certain need for a savior and redeemer was clearly established and the plan was in place long before the fall.

Mortality was a critical part of that plan and was engineered and designed as a test to each and every one of us to carry out the full exercise of agency which allowed all to either choose faith and obedience to Christ and receive of the great atoning sacrifice or choose captivity and spiritual death and be subject to the devil.


As I see it no one is ever denied salvation because of the fall including Adam and Eve.

May I suggest that if Adam had not made the choice he did, that he then would have made God a liar. For there would have been no need for our Savior and redeemer.

If anyone can argue clearly from the scriptures to show this entire position to be false, then feel free to so prove their point from the scriptures.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: God Visited Original Sin Upon All Of Mankind Because . . .

Post #18

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:15 pm ... if Adam had not made the choice he did, that he then would have made God a liar. For there would have been no need for our Savior and redeemer.
What is your scriptural support for the idea that Adam remaining obedient "would have made God a liar"?






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Re: God Visited Original Sin Upon All Of Mankind Because . . .

Post #19

Post by Menotu »

Miles wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:29 pm .


. . . Because?



.
Maybe he was bored.
Or he's a childish [insert your own negative wordings here].
Or he knew he couldn't control all of humanity so he said 'Well, might as well start them all out this way to make it easy!" (aka lazy)
Or maybe it's just story told to control
Wondering why 'God did this or that' is an exercise in futility from my experience.

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Re: God Visited Original Sin Upon All Of Mankind Because . . .

Post #20

Post by Avoice »

There is no original sin.
Don't get me wrong...Christians are just like Adam and Eve. In that they have fallen for the oldest trick in the book. They choose to listen to a voice that is not God's voice.

God said dont eat from that tree
The serpent encouraged it
The serpent said they would live forever. They wouldn't die

God said his laws are forever. We are to keep them
The church clainsvtge laws are done away with
If you listen to Jesus you will live forever.

THATS THE SIN OF CHRISTIANS. BUT IT ISN'T INHERITED. ITS A CHOICE THEY MAKE. THEY CAN'T BLAME ANYONE ELSE. IF THEY WANT TO BELIEVE ANOTHER VOICE THEN THEY ARE FOOLS.

The garden of Eden narrative contains the primary rule to life. Obey God's voice. Even if you are promised eternal life. ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE PROMISED ETERNAL LIFE.

That is purely an idea concocted by the church. This idea is found no where in the Hebrew Scriptures.

If there was original sin then Adam and Eves children would gave been 'infected' with it. IF THAT WERE TRUE...

Why did God tell Cain:

"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”.

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