The sealed

[PinSeeker]

So this came up in a current ongoing thread, and seems worthy of a thread of its own:

Concerning the sealed, Paul specifically calls them those whom God has put His seal on and given His Spirit in their hearts as a guarantee (2 Corinthians 1:22), those who are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13), and those sealed by the Holy Spirit of God for the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30). John, in his revelation, says the sealed are those with the seal of the living God and number 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, for a total of 144,000 (Revelation 7:4-8).

It is generally accepted that Paul and John were referring to the same group of people. However, Paul indicates an innumerable multitude of folks, in the 2 Corinthians and Ephesians passages above, while John seems to indicate a hard number of people (144.000), although he does, though, talk about an innumerable multitude immediately after he speaks of the 144,000 in Revelation 7 (vv.9-17).

Questions for debate:
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1. Were Paul and John, in the aforementioned passages, speaking of the same group of folks as being "sealed"?

2. If they were speaking of the same folks, how is it both an innumerable multitude and strictly 144,000 people at the same time?

3. Was John referring to a different group of people in Revelation 7:9-17 than he referred to in Revelation 7:1-8?

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Grace and peace to all.

[PinSeeker]

Did you not say that {quote} "Paul indicates an innumerable multitude of folks, in the 2 Corinthians and Ephesians passages"?

Do you not think his words are true for all past, present, and future Christians? You know, all those that have ever been, are, and will be in Christ? The ones who are true descendants of Abraham? You know, as Paul said in all his letters. And I'm sure Paul, as knowledgeable of the Scriptures as he was -- he very often quoted and referred to many Old Testament passages, for sure -- knew all about how God told Abraham that his descendants would number as the stars of heaven. “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them. So shall your offspring be,” God said to Abraham in Genesis 15, and of course Abraham was not able to number the stars; no man could possibly do so. Yes, Paul knew all about that. So yes, Paul knew perfectly well he was indicating an innumerable multitude as those sealed by the Holy Spirit and was very purposeful in doing so, and he knew his readers would get exactly what he was saying. So do you not believe any of this?

More dancing, it seems... Again, answer the questions as stated in the opening post. Or, you can choose not to participate, of course, but that would speak volumes.

Grace and peace to you.

[Checkpoint]

...your answers in this next post seems to have touched on a somewhat raw nerve.

Indeed. I knew that would be the case. It was not my intention to touch any nerve, raw or otherwise, though. And, regardless of possible nerve-touching, I knew there would be some, ah, shall we say, "dancing."

I am with you on this one, and may the Lord be also in your exchanges on this new thread.

Thank you for stating your position. Grace and peace to you also.

Yes, you could say that.

Perhaps even "dancing on thin ice".

Ah well, enjoy it while you can, or if you can, anyway.

And, of course, with grace and in peace.

[PinSeeker]

Ah well, enjoy it while you can, or if you can, anyway.

Quite honestly, Checkpoint, I don't really enjoy debate on these things, per se. But I know of nowhere in the Bible where God says anything to the tune of, "you will always enjoy what you are called to do." It seems to me He basically says, figuratively speaking, "You will not enjoy all that you are called to do, and that even the opposite may be true, but do it anyway, because I have called you to do it." But one of His great promises is, "I will help you do it -- the Holy Spirit will help you do so -- and you will be glad and even praise and glorify Me for it and because of it -- in the end." As James (1:2-4) puts it:

• "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing."

Grace and peace to you and all.