The The Killing of Saul And The Veracity Of The Bible

[Miles]

.

The authors of First and Second Samuel, and First Chronicles decidedly disagree on who killed Saul, the first king of Israel, which doesn't speak well of the veracity of the Bible at all. So, can you sort it out and come up with a good explanation of the true culprit?

Your choices

Saul did it.
1 Samuel 31:4
4 Saul told the boy who carried his armor, “Take your sword and kill me or else these foreigners will do it and torment me as well!” But Saul’s helper was afraid and refused to kill him. So Saul took out his own sword and fell on it.
------------------------------------------
An Amalekite did it
2 Samuel 1:6 -10
6 The young soldier said, “I happened to be on Mount Gilboa. I saw Saul leaning on his spear. The Philistine chariots and horse soldiers were coming closer and closer to Saul. 7 Saul looked back and saw me. He called to me and I answered him. 8 Then Saul asked me who I was. I told him that I was an Amalekite. 9 Then Saul said, ‘Please kill me. I am hurt badly. And I am about to die anyway.’ 10 He was hurt so badly that I knew he wouldn’t live. So I stopped and killed him. Then I took the crown from his head and the bracelet from his arm and brought them here to you, my lord.”
-------------------------------------------------
The Philistines did it
2 Samuel 21:12
12 And David went and took the bones of Saul and the bones of Jonathan his son from the men of Jabeshgilead, which had stolen them from the street of Bethshan, where the Philistines had hanged them, when the Philistines had slain Saul in Gilboa:
-------------------------------------------------
The Lord did it
1 Chronicles 10:13-14
13 Saul died because he was not faithful to the Lord. He did not obey the Lord’s word. Saul also went to a medium and asked her for advice 14 instead of asking the Lord. That is why the Lord killed Saul and gave the kingdom to Jesse’s son David.

.

[JehovahsWitness]

WHO KILLED SAUL?

Reading the full accounts:

Saul commited suicide

With defeat by the Philistines imminent, Saul mortally wounded committed suicide when his attendant refused to kill him. The final blow was self inflicted (compare 1 Sam 31:3, 4b)

------------------------------------------------------------------

The Amelekite lied about his role in Saul's death

The young man, who came upon the bodies, evidently during said battle, stole his identfying arm band and crown and then the Amelakite lied to David hoping for some kind of a reward. (See above)

------------------------------------------------------------------

The Philistines caused his death


The defeating Philistinse, beheaded the bodies and hung them up for public display. The Philistines were ultimately responsable for Saul's death because had they not battled with him Saul would not have been wounded. (compare 1 Sam 31: 4b)


------------------------------------------------------------------
God allowed it

God killed Saul by allowing all this to happen.

[Miles]

WHO KILLED SAUL?

Reading the full accounts:

Saul commited suicide

With defeat by the Philistines imminent, Saul mortally wounded committed suicide when his attendant refused to kill him. The final blow was self inflicted
Yup, The Amelekite didn't kill Saul. The Philistines didn't kill Saul. God didn't kill Saul. Saul killed Saul
------------------------------------------------------------------

The Amelekite lied about his role in Saul's death

The young man, who came upon the bodies, evidently during said battle, stole his identfying arm band and crown and then the Amelakite lied to David hoping for some kind of a reward.
Of course! It's all there in 2 Samuel 1:6a,b - 7d - 8b and 9 - 10. 2 Samuel 1:8b "And the Amelakite was deemed a liar, liar, pants on fire."

------------------------------------------------------------------

The Philistines caused his death


The defeating Philistinse, beheaded the bodies and hung them up for public display. The Philistines were ultimately responsable for Saul's death because had they not battled with him Saul would not have been wounded.

Certainly, because Saul can't be blamed for starting it; the murderer that he was. "And the Lord answered, “Saul and his family of murderers. are the reason for the famine, because he killed the Gibeonites.” (2 Samuel 21:1) so let's say the Philistines started it all and were ultimately responsible for Saul's death. Yeah! That's it. The Philistines started it all.

------------------------------------------------------------------
God allowed it

God killed Saul by allowing all this to happen.

Just as god is responsible for killing my father with a heart attack by allowing it to happen. A claim so broad as to be meaningless

.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to Miles in post #3]

Why are we not talking about Saul? Why are we talking about your father? How is the life your father lived and the life that Saul lived similar? Tell us, what was your father like and what was Saul like? Are you just mad at God for death period? Death to God is just like someone sleeping. Your father is sleeping. Unless he hated God and everything he stood for then he will live again. Do you hate God and everything thing he wants to do? Will you meet your father when he lives again? If not, what do you want him to know when he is resurrected to live again? PM me his name and if I am able, I will tell him why you are not there to meet him.

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #3]

Why are we not talking about Saul? Why are we talking about your father?

Because saying "God killed Saul by allowing all this to happen" is as dumb as saying: "God is responsible for killing my father with a heart attack by allowing it to happen."
Fact is, the Bible doesn't say god allowed Saul's death, as if permitting someone/thing else to kill Saul, but rather that he had good reason to personally kill him; Saul was not faithful to the Lord, nor did he obey the Lord's word, nor ask the Lord for advice.

1 Chronicles 10:13-14
13 Saul died because he was not faithful to the Lord. He did not obey the Lord’s word. Saul also went to a medium and asked her for advice 14 instead of asking the Lord. That is why the Lord killed Saul and gave the kingdom to Jesse’s son David.



.

[JehovahsWitness]

.. saying "God killed Saul by allowing all this to happen" is as dumb as saying: "God is responsible for killing my father with a heart attack by allowing it to happen."

Well the difference is God conndemned Saul for his evilness. Because of Saul's rebelliousness, Jehovah deliberately withdrew his protection from him. Saul thus launched in a campaign which would normally have been God ordained without God's blessing and was doomed to failure and sooner ir later, premature death.

There is no reason to extrapolate from that, that all deaths are as a direct result of God's punishment for wicked acts as was the case of Saul. Sickness and death (including heart attacks) are the result of our inherited imperfect condition and sadly both the righteous and the unrighteous suffer its ravages. God is indeed allowing sickness and death, however is not because he has cursed their victims for their rebelliousness but because it is not his time to remedy the situation. It would thus be wrong to say the victim of a heart attack was "killed by God".






JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to

SICKNESS , DEATH, and ...THE MIRACLES OF JESUS CHRIST

[JehovahsWitness]

Certainly, because Saul can't be blamed for starting it... The Philistines started it all.

Started what exactly? To what are you refering? .... the battle of Gilboa? The Philistine wars? Something else?

... the murderer that he was. "And the Lord answered, “Saul and his family of murderers. are the reason for the famine, because he killed the Gibeonites.” (2 Samuel 21:1)

The Gibeonites were not Philistines (they were Canaanites, probably Amorites). But as I said, Saul committed many atrocities, including a planned genocide of the Gibeonites.

... so let's say the Philistines ...were ultimately responsible for Saul's death. Yeah! That's it

Maybe I should't have said "responsible" (Saul was resonsible for his own premature death because of his rebellion) but the Philistines caused his death, by wounding him at least that is how the facts are presented in the bible narrative (see 1 Sam 31:3, 4b).

[JehovahsWitness]

DID GOD KILL SAUL?

Fact is, the Bible doesn't say god allowed Saul's death, as if permitting someone/thing else to kill Saul ...

That is where critical thinking skills come in to play. As Jehovah's Witnesses we don't need a specific scripture for every conclusion. Thanks to our ability to anaylze what is said, we can understand what is meant.

... he [God] had good reason to personally kill him; Saul was not faithful to the Lord, nor did he obey the Lord's word, nor ask the Lord for advice.

1 Chronicles 10:13-14
13 Saul died because he was not faithful to the Lord. He did not obey the Lord’s word. Saul also went to a medium and asked her for advice 14 instead of asking the Lord. That is why the Lord killed Saul and gave the kingdom to Jesse’s son David.

Agreed. God has good reason for everything he does. 1 Chronicles 10:13-14 however doesn't say how he did what he did, only WHY. God can personally execute someone directly or he can use a human agent to ensure the execution takes place. The bible does contain examples when without a human agent, God directly kills individuals. However this was not the case with Saul. The bible narrative clearly shows that Saul died as a result of falling on his own sword.

[Miles]

DID GOD KILL SAUL?

Fact is, the Bible doesn't say god allowed Saul's death, as if permitting someone/thing else to kill Saul ...

That is where critical thinking skills come in to play. As Jehovah's Witnesses we don't need a specific scripture for every conclusion. Thanks to our ability to anaylze what is said, we can understand what is meant.

Yes, I know. It's pretty obvious. Concocting reasons, ways, and conclusions is a great way to make the Bible fit one's theology. Even better than cherry picking.

... he [God] had good reason to personally kill him; Saul was not faithful to the Lord, nor did he obey the Lord's word, nor ask the Lord for advice.

1 Chronicles 10:13-14
13 Saul died because he was not faithful to the Lord. He did not obey the Lord’s word. Saul also went to a medium and asked her for advice 14 instead of asking the Lord. That is why the Lord killed Saul and gave the kingdom to Jesse’s son David.

Agreed. God has good reason for everything he does. 1 Chronicles 10:13-14 however doesn't say how he did what he did, only WHY.

But you already said that "God killed Saul by allowing all this to happen,." Saul killed himself, the Amalekite killed him, and the Philistines killed him, all of which is pretty ludicrous, wouldn't you say?

God can personally execute someone directly or he can use a human agent to ensure the execution takes place. The bible does contain examples when without a human agent, God directly kills individuals. However this was not the case with Saul. The bible narrative clearly shows that Saul died as a result of falling on his own sword.

And the bible narrative clearly shows that Saul died as a result of the Amalekite killing him.

2 Samuel 1:6 -10 (NWTHS version)
The young man replied: “By chance I was on Mount Gil·boʹa,+ and there was Saul supporting himself on his spear, and the chariots and horsemen had caught up with him.+ 7 When he turned around and saw me, he called me, and I said, ‘Here I am!’ 8 He asked me, ‘Who are you?’ I replied, ‘I am an A·malʹek·ite.’+ 9 Then he said, ‘Please stand over me and put me to death, for I am in great agony, but I am still alive.’* 10 So I stood over him and put him to death,+ for I knew that he could not survive after he had fallen down wounded. Then I took the crown* that was on his head and the bracelet that was on his arm, and I brought them here to my lord.”


And the bible narrative clearly shows that Saul died as a result of the Philistines killing him.

2 Samuel 21:12 (NWTHS version)
12 So David went and took the bones of Saul and the bones of his son Jonʹa·than from the leaders* of Jaʹbesh-gilʹe·ad,+ who had stolen them from the public square of Beth-shan, where the Phi·lisʹtines had hung them on the day that the Phi·lisʹtines struck down Saul on Gil·boʹa.


And the bible narrative clearly shows that Saul may have died as a result of the none of these. He may just as well have died as the result of god using some other means.

1 Chronicles 10:13-14 (NWTHS version)
13 Thus Saul died for the unfaithfulness he had shown against Jehovah because he had not obeyed the word of Jehovah,+ also for consulting a spirit medium+ 14 instead of inquiring of Jehovah. So He put him to death and turned the kingship over to David the son of Jesʹse.


.

[JehovahsWitness]

I have already addressed those points (HERES the link)
viewtopic.php?p=1023922#p1023922


Was there anything non repetitive you wished to ask?





JW



RELATED POSTS

Are all deaths punishment for wickedness?
viewtopic.php?p=1023950#p1023950

To learn more please go to other posts related to

LIFE, DEATH and ...THE HUMAN SOUL