You MUST be born again

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Checkpoint
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You MUST be born again

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

You MUST be born again".

That is a very emphatic statement, made to Nicodemus, a Jewish teacher.

Here now is the whole passage, from John 3:

1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit b gives birth to spirit.

7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.
8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
An interesting exchange, and an interesting subject.

How do you understand what Jesus taught in these verses?

What do you say being born again, or being born of the Spirit, actually is?

Is this for every follower of Jesus, or only for some believers?

Does it take place in this life, or in the one to come, or both?

Why is it so important?

Could it be similar to, or the result of, repentance and/or saving faith?

How would you explain verse 8?
Last edited by Checkpoint on Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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William
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Re: You MUST be born again

Post #491

Post by William »

myth-one.com wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:23 pm
William wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:54 pm That which is born of spirit is not born in the same way as that which is born of flesh, but the process is similar.

The birthing simply refers to a beginning event, which occurs when the individual makes the initial request...
Jesus claims only one thing needs to be done.

You're saying more than one thing is required.
Not at all. We say the same. The one things is a process and a process requires many things within it.
William wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:54 pm Personal effort and commitment is required. If one has not experienced these insights - peeks into the spiritual realm - it is because they have yet to begin their journey into being born again. Of The Spirit.
Isn't this is a "cart before the Horse" dilemma?
Not at all. The one begets the other. The journey is the whole process. The born again initiate will have such experiences.
Jesus told Nicodemus that "no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."
You're claiming that one must peek (see) into the spiritual realm "before" being born again of the Spirit and able to see into the spiritual realm.
Not at all. One must be born again before one can experience the 'peeks' - the peeking is only in regard to the fact that for the time being, this physical universe is the dominant reality one is experiencing - The Spirit universe is that to which one has access as part of the process of being born again. It shows itself to those who are born of The Spirit.
Last edited by William on Sat Mar 20, 2021 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #492

Post by We_Are_VENOM »


9. No unconstructive one-liners posts are allowed in debates.

Kindly refrain from making posts that contribute nothing to debate and/or simply express agreement / disagreement or make other frivolous remarks.

For complimenting or agreeing use the Thank button. For anything else use PM.
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

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Re: You MUST be born again

Post #493

Post by JehovahsWitness »

So we have established 3 things ...


#1 THE LAKE OF FIRE DESTROYS WHAT GOES IN IT
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:25 pm Because no one will ever die again, no one will ever be buried in a grave again. Therefore, the concepts of death and hell (the grave) are both "cast" into the lake of fire and destroyed
1 CORINTHIANS 15:26

Contemporary English Version
and the last enemy he destroys will be death.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The last enemy he will destroy is death.

Literal Standard Version
The last enemy is done away with—death.

NET Bible
The last enemy to be eliminated is death.

#2 THE LAKE OF FIRE CAUSES THINGS TO CEASE TO EXIST
myth-one.com wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:46 am They cease to exist ever again...
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:25 pm There will be no more death!




#3 SATAN IS THROW INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE

Image
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: You MUST be born again

Post #494

Post by William »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #494]

"Delete" It is simply a symbolic gesture for the deletion of form and function which is no longer applicable.

The existence of Satan is purged from the Mind of The Creator. It served a purpose but is no longer required.

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Re: You MUST be born again

Post #495

Post by myth-one.com »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:12 am So we have established 3 things ...

#1 THE LAKE OF FIRE DESTROYS WHAT GOES IN IT
No, not everything! Spiritual beings cannot be destroyed. The devil, for example, will live there for eternity.
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:25 pm Because no one will ever die again, no one will ever be buried in a grave again. Therefore, the concepts of death and hell (the grave) are both "cast" into the lake of fire and destroyed
JehovahsWitness wrote:#2 THE LAKE OF FIRE CAUSES THINGS TO CEASE TO EXIST
myth-one.com wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:46 am They cease to exist ever again...
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:25 pm There will be no more death!
Those humans whose names are not written in the Book of Life after their judgment, are cast into the lake of fire and quickly perish.

When the last living human is either born again as a spirit or cast into the lake of fire, there will be no more death.
JehovahsWitness wrote:#3 SATAN IS THROW INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE
The devil is cast into the lake of fire, and will be tormented there for ever and ever.

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You MUST be born again

Post #496

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #470]

This post continues and completes post # 488 to you.
Being born again, of the Spirit, of God, is evidenced by how we live at this time in this body.

Paul writes of these evidences in Galatians 5:13-24.

About which the NIV says:
In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit.
As Paul further explains in Romans 8:
5 Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
6 The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,

7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
8 Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
The Christian life is a spiritual one, and it begins when w are born again of the Spirit as God's children.

It is very real. He calls it our new self, a new creation, and regeneration and renewal.

Galatians 6:15
For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!

Titus 3:

4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
5He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth/regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 This is the Spirit He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior.
.
==========================================

Thus, for man to gain everlasting life, he must be born of the Spirit.
Amen.

We can at least agree on this!

As to what, why, and when it is, is another story entirely.

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Re: You MUST be born again

Post #497

Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:35 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:12 am So we have established 3 things ...
#1 THE LAKE OF FIRE ]DESTROYS] WHAT GOES IN IT.
No, not everything! Spiritual beings cannot be destroyed. The devil, for example, will live there for eternity.
Well, no, that is in fact established, but what is not being understood correctly is the concept of destruction. In this life, if I lose my job and am then unemployable, lose my house, my family, lose everything... then, though I am still alive, I am destroyed, my life is ruined. In the same way -- although on a much greater level -- when the unbeliever, who is already dead in his sin, is thrown into the lake of fire, he or she no longer has any opportunity to repent of his/her sin and believe on Christ and be saved. This is utter destruction. Yes, the lake of fire destroys everything that goes into it. JW is correct.

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:35 pm Because no one will ever die again, no one will ever be buried in a grave again. Therefore, the concepts of death and hell (the grave) are both "cast" into the lake of fire and destroyed.
Right, no one will ever die again. That's for sure. We all agree on that, I'm sure. But again, the concept of destruction is not what you imagine it to be. See above.

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:35 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:12 am #2 THE LAKE OF FIRE CAUSES THINGS TO CEASE TO EXIST.
They cease to exist ever again...
They do not cease to exist. Again, the concept of destruction is not what you imagine it to be. See above.

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:25 pm
There will be no more death! Those humans whose names are not written in the Book of Life after their judgment, are cast into the lake of fire and quickly perish. When the last living human is either born again as a spirit or cast into the lake of fire, there will be no more death.
Agreed on all three counts, but I would make a couple of clarifications here. No, there will be no more death, as you say, but those who are dead (not in Christ) will remain permanently dead (not in Christ). Yes, those humans whose names are not written in the Book of Life after the Judgment are cast into the lake of fire -- with the devil, who has already been put there at that point -- and experience the second death. And finally, all humans who are born again, will have experienced this new birth before the Judgment, even before their physical deaths from this life.

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:35 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:12 am SATAN IS THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.
The devil is cast into the lake of fire, and will be tormented there for ever and ever.
Agreed, but the unrepentant, those who remain unrepentant, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, will suffer the same fate as the devil -- will be thrown into the lake of fire. Of them, Revelation 20 says NOTHING beyond that, but since the devil is tormented day and night forever there, we can know that the unrepentant suffer the exact same fate. This is made very clear by our Lord in Matthew 25:41-46 (specifically verses 41 and 46), and in His parable of Luke 16:19-31 (specifically verses 23 through 28).


So, back to the topic again, if anyone here is not born again, pray that God would make it so. ALTHOUGH... if anyone does this, it just may be evidence that their new birth has already been effected by the Spirit. How 'bout them apples? :)

Grace and peace to all.

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Re: You MUST be born again

Post #498

Post by myth-one.com »

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:35 pmThe devil is cast into the lake of fire, and will be tormented there for ever and ever.
PinSeeker wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:50 amAgreed, but the unrepentant, those who remain unrepentant, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, will suffer the same fate as the devil -- will be thrown into the lake of fire. Of them, Revelation 20 says NOTHING beyond that, but since the devil is tormented day and night forever there, we can know that the unrepentant suffer the exact same fate. This is made very clear by our Lord in Matthew 25:41-46 (specifically verses 41 and 46), and in His parable of Luke 16:19-31 (specifically verses 23 through 28).
The wages of sin for humans is death.

Humans cast into a lake of fire and brimstone will die instantly.

And following their death, there is no torment:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

And the wages of their sin is everlasting:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:46)

They will be dead for all eternity -- even the memory of them is forgotten.

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Re: You MUST be born again

Post #499

Post by myth-one.com »

Checkpoint wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:01 am
Myth-one.com wrote:Thus, for man to gain everlasting life, he must be born of the Spirit.
Amen.

We can at least agree on this!

As to what, why, and when it is, is another story entirely.
Yes we can -- thanks for that.

Good post!

But Paul explained very clearly as to what, why, and when.

Regarding believers, he wrote that the natural body comes first and the spiritual body comes last.

If that is true, then you have not been born again of the Spirit as you still have a natural body.

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Re: You MUST be born again

Post #500

Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:11 pm Humans cast into a lake of fire and brimstone will die instantly.
This is the second death, certainly. The mere fact that some will die a second death should tell you something, myth-one. It tells us other things, too, but at the very least, it should tell you that death is not a cessation of existence.
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:11 pm And following their death, there is no torment: "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing"... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
Three things here:

1.) the whole of Ecclesiastes is concerning life as we exist on this planet... temporal life, not eternal life. This is indicated over and over again throughout Ecclesiastes by the phrase "under the sun."

2.) What you say is here is quite contrary to the situation Jesus describes in his parable concerning the rich young ruler, who has died, but is very conscious and in a place of anguish and torment after his physical death.

3.) Revelation 20 clearly indicates that the unrepentant meet the same fate as the devil, beast, and false prophet, following them into the lake of fire and sulfur. They are tormented day and night forever, and logically, the unrepentant do are as well; Revelation 20 itself does not indicate otherwise. And this corresponds intensely with what Jesus says in Matthew 25 and Luke 16.
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:11 pm And the wages of their sin is everlasting...
Absolutely.

myth-one.com wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:11 pm They will be dead for all eternity -- even the memory of them is forgotten.
Absolutely. We who are saved will remember them no more.

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