Who Sinned First?

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Who Sinned First?

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Post by William »

Adam or Eve?
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Re: Who Sinned First?

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PinSeeker wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:30 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:07 pm Although Adam may have been there, even standing right beside Eve, there's no indication that he heard anything or understood what the serpent was saying.
Okay, granted, but there's no explicit or implicit indication otherwise, either, and the silence is deafening, especially in view of the fact that at the end of the accounting of the conversation and the eating -- which is a mere four verses -- it is crystal clear that Adam was there with Eve (verse 6).
In which case your "granted" is meaningless. And the silence, while perhaps deafening, still doesn't say a thing. As I pointed out, just because it may be "crystal clear" to you that Adam was there with Eve, doesn't necessarily mean he heard a thing.
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:07 pm It could very well be the case that only Eve could hear or understand the serpent.
Well, you can hold to that if you want -- as if you need my, or anyone else's, approval -- but I hold that that cannot be the case. Genesis 3:6, as I said, is very clear, and really indisputable.
"Cannot" is a pretty decisive position, and without supporting evidence, of which I've seen none, doesn't mean a thing.
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:07 pm Just as if you heard someone speak in a foreign language you didn't understand; it would be meaningless.
A "foreign language?" Where did that even come from?
Surely you know what "as if" means, don't you? Perhaps not.
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:07 pm We just don't know, and to claim we do is unjustified by the evidence: what is written.
We do know; it is quite well justified. We'll agree to disagree on that.
Sorry, but nothing you've presented rises to the level of knowing. You may suspect, wish, or believe it's justified, but I'm quite certain you don't "know."


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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post #92

Post by PinSeeker »

Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:54 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:30 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:07 pm Although Adam may have been there, even standing right beside Eve, there's no indication that he heard anything or understood what the serpent was saying.
Okay, granted, but there's no explicit or implicit indication otherwise, either, and the silence is deafening, especially in view of the fact that at the end of the accounting of the conversation and the eating -- which is a mere four verses -- it is crystal clear that Adam was there with Eve (verse 6).
In which case your "granted" is meaningless.
Well, right; that's kind of the point I was making. Sure.
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:54 pm ...the silence, while perhaps deafening, still doesn't say a thing.
To you. Sure. It should, but very well.
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:54 pm As I pointed out, just because it may be "crystal clear" to you that Adam was there with Eve, doesn't necessarily mean he heard a thing.
Adam was not deaf. :)
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:54 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:30 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:07 pm It could very well be the case that only Eve could hear or understand the serpent.
Well, you can hold to that if you want -- as if you need my, or anyone else's, approval -- but I hold that that cannot be the case. Genesis 3:6, as I said, is very clear, and really indisputable.
"Cannot" is a pretty decisive position...
That it is, Miles. That it is.
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:54 pm ...without supporting evidence, of which I've seen none, doesn't mean a thing.
Well, perhaps you eyes are closed. Or your mind. Or both. :)
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:07 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:30 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:07 pm Just as if you heard someone speak in a foreign language you didn't understand; it would be meaningless.
A "foreign language?" Where did that even come from?
Surely you know what "as if" means, don't you? Perhaps not.
Yeah, my bad. Missed that little "as if." But still, Adam heard God and he well understood. As I said, Adam was not deaf, and nothing in Genesis indicates any lack of understanding on his part, and in fact quite the opposite.
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:07 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:30 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:07 pm We just don't know, and to claim we do is unjustified by the evidence: what is written.
We do know; it is quite well justified. We'll agree to disagree on that.
Sorry, but nothing you've presented rises to the level of knowing.
In your opinion. Sure. And I respect that opinion. But yes, it's very clear. And you can surely say that's my opinion, and I would agree.
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:07 pm You may suspect, wish, or believe it's justified, but I'm quite certain you don't "know."
Very well. Sorry to make you angry; that was surely not my intent.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post #93

Post by William »

So in this thread, we are presented with evidence that Christians will go to extraordinary lengths in interpreting the bible and even adding to or taking away from older versions of the mythology in order to carry on with the deception - primarily the deception being that Middle Eastern Mythology is presenting a story as something which actually happened and the consequence of Woman bringing sin into the world.

One such example is this - GENESIS 3:6b - NWT

"So she began taking of its fruit and eating it.+ Afterward, she also gave some to her husband when he was with her, and he began eating it."

The same passage from the KJV

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

As can be seen, the addition of the word "afterward" changes the storyline in a most significant manner - one which should lead the reader to suspect that it is an attempt to 'correct' the story so that one can then argue that Adam was not privy to the conversation between his wife and the Serpent. ["Afterward, she also gave some to her husband when he was with her..."]

This in turn allows us to study any responses from those who use changed versions of the bible story to argue that Adam was not present throughout the exchange between Serpent and Woman - therefore "Woman sinned first."

This use of adding to and taking away from this biblical story clearly is an attempt to deceive the reader. Indeed, even that it is the habit of believers in this Middle Eastern Mythology to view the Human Woman as the primary sinner, and this belief subsequently explains the mistreatment of Women by most if not all branches of religion which evolved through belief in said mythology - it also explains the deceptive natures of the men who run these religions, and indeed - because of the prevalence of these religions in our world today - we can be assured that our world is being deceived.

Lets examine one recent attempt at deception:
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:00 am That Adam was "with" his wife during the final event in the sequence is clear, what is somewhat ambiguous is whether he was "with her" earlier, ie whether or not Adam was present during her earlier conversation with Satan and subsequent actions.


The literal translation of Genesis 3:6b (see below) reads as follows : “… with her - to the man - also - and gave - and did eat - from its fruit - and she took - and he did eat ”. Thus the "with her" could refer to Adam's presence beside her OR "with her" as in ...

- present in the garden (but not necessarily at her side/beside her)
- complicitness in her decision although not necessarily present her when she made said decision
In the above, we see how the changed part of the story can then work toward building up an argument, which can only be achieved because of the changes.

The conclusion "Thus the "with her" could refer to Adam's presence beside her OR "with her" as in ...

- present in the garden (but not necessarily at her side/beside her) "

Of course the story from other versions which have not added "afterward...when he was with her" cannot be deduced in the manner whereby we can come to the conclusion that "Adam was possibly not actually with his wife during the temptation of his wife by the Serpent...and therefore, did not sin first."

We are then left to have it explained to us why Adam - upon seeing his wife with the fruit she had eaten and was now offering to him - did not turn away from her obvious betrayal and refuse to partake in sin with her.

But really - does the changed version offer us the idea that Adam was "present in the garden (but not necessarily at her side/beside her)" when clearly where else would the author place Adam? Outside of the garden?

Nope.

We are not even told how large Eden was - but to believe the author would think it necessary for the reader to understand that "Adam was in the garden as was his wife Eve, but was not present at the Serpents temptation of his wife Eve" when clearly the author wants the reader to know that Adam was with Eve throughout the temptation, and 'here is a version of the story which tells us it might have been different" is obviously an attempt at deception by those who - in line with tradition - prefer to believe that it was Eve who sinned first.

The story is a sham. A device of deception which still plagues the world today.

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Re: Who Sinned First?

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Re: Who Sinned First?

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Perhaps if we put on our detective hats and examine the story we can find out if indeed it was the case that Eve sinned first.

Facts [according to the storyline bullet points]

The god created Adams body as a cadaver [a non-living form] and breathed his 'life force' into the form so that it became alive. [thus the form was a container/avatar]
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Adam was created first and instructed by the god regarding the knowledge fruit.
He was told not to EAT it.
And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Then the god made a variety of forms which he then made into living creatures [presumably by the same method as the god had done with Adams form.] because the god did not think it was 'good' for Adam to 'be alone' [even that the god was with Adam so we can't say Adam was 'alone' really.]

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air;...


The god brought these beings to Adam and Adam named the beings. One of those being of course, Adam called a "Serpent"

...and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Out of all the beings created and presented by the god, there were none which were found a suitable 'help meet'.

And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

The god had to think outside the box...this time he changed his method of creating...

And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.


Adam appears to be very pleased with this new addition to the garden and he called her "Woman" because he was still naming things that the god brought to him and because he understood how she had been made [so the god must have explained to him the process of how the woman was created.]

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Then we have an interesting commentary on why a women leaves her parents and goes to be with man, as per the first Woman being created to be the helpmate of the First Man [tradition] only...wait...the commentary seems to have it backwards...

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

So okay - perhaps it is better understood that both men and women leave their parents and go to live with each other...as husband and wife. The important thing must be that they are living together for each other in love and support. Keep that in mind.

Then the finally bullet point in that part of the story is that they were created naked and were not clothed because they had no reason to wear clothes. The garden must have been temperate. However the mention of them wearing no clothes is not because of the obliging climate but to point out that the pair had no experience of being ashamed, and this was obviously pointed out in anticipation of the story-tellers intent to explain to us WHY the pair were naked.

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

What we have in that first biblical story, isn't really a story but bullet points regarding a story.

Analogy of that being the case is unto Sherlock Holmes [remember we have our detective hats on for this] walking onto a crime scene. A policeman tells him the bullet points of the situation but Sherlock has the eye of an investigator and can read the room far better for that.

The next set of bullet points go directly to the advent of the scene of the eating of the forbidden fruit. We are not informed how long a period went by from the last set of bullet points [the creation of other animals and of the Woman.]
It may have been a day, a week a year or a decade...and could even be significant information which has been left out.

Nevertheless the next scene we are introduced to the Serpent.

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. ...

There are various interpretations re the word 'subtil' and it is generally regarded along the lines of being "cunning/of malicious intention"

As we know, Adam named the Serpent a "serpent" so we can conclude from that, that Adam was familiar with said creature.

...And he said unto the woman,

So we know that the Serpent could speak at least one language and be understood.
Since Adam would have known this to be the case with this particular being, it is likely that Adam and the being had some kind of relationship and certainly more of a relationship that Adam could have gotten from any of the other creatures of the garden that the god had created.
From this we can ascertain that it may have been likely that out of all the creatures which proved unsuitable as a help mate for Adam, the Serpent would have been the closest candidate for the role, because at least it could converse with Adam which would have been nice for Adam when Adams god was not there to help him in his aloneness.

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


So next bullet point is the words the serpent spoke to Eve.

Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

From this one sentence we have some interesting evidence to examine.

Firstly: It is what is known as a "leading question" - a question that prompts or encourages the answer wanted.
Secondly: The serpent was aware that the god had given specific instructions regarding a certain fruit of a certain tree.

We know these, because after the Woman replies we get this from the serpent;

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

1: Where did the serpent get this knowledge from?
2: Was this knowledge true? [in relation to the bullet points about the story.]

Re [1:] There are 3 possible answers. The serpent got the information from the god, from Adam, or just made it up on the fly, winging things in relation to how the Woman replied to his initial leading question.

Re [2:] We know that after the pair had both eaten of the fruit they did not die. In fact according to follow-up stories, they did not die for many hundreds of years later. So it was either a lucky guess from the serpent, or he had some kind of inside information...which rules out Adam being the source of where the serpent got his information from - or at least that part of the information...but we shouldn't discount the idea that the serpent was surprised that when the Woman ate the fruit, that she didn't actually die. Which is to say, Adam still could have been the source from where the serpent got its information.

Back to that leading question. Since we know that the serpent already had the information re the forbidden fruit, he framed his question to the Woman in order that the woman would focus upon the one tree which she had been told "not to touch or eat of" because that was the tree the serpent wanted the Woman to focus on.

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.


Let us now go back to what the god had instructed Adam in relation to the fruit.

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


We can see clearly here that the Woman believed that they were not even to touch the fruit and told the serpent as much. Since the serpent knew that this was not actually part of the gods instructions, the serpent had identified a possible weakness in the Woman's argument. Therefore IF it could get the Woman to simply touch the fruit and she did not 'surely die', then she would most likely also then eat of the fruit. [="Subtil"] Mission accomplished.

But what was the serpents motivation for getting the Woman to eat the fruit and die?

Next up we have;

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

This event in the storyline brings everything together and shows us that it was Adam who sinned first.

Why?

As I have pointed out.

1: Adam must have been the one from which the serpent got the information about the forbidden tree.
2: Adam must have been the one who added to the command "do not touch"
3: Adam used the Woman as a lab-rat to test whether there was any truth to the gods prediction that to eat the fruit one would will surely die.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

It is undeniable that Adam was the one who wanted to eat the fruit and gain this knowledge. Perhaps the serpent and he reasoned that the god was keeping knowledge from him and wondering how they could test the theory to see if it were true?
Of course!
Use the Woman!

How do we know this is the most likely case?

We know because bullet points of the story tells us.

Adam was with Eve throughout the temptation. He never raised any points of concern regarding either Eves adding to the gods command [do no touch...further evidence that it was Adam who told the Woman not to touch the fruit] nor did he raise any voice of concern at the serpents tempting his wife to do something they were told not to do.
Clearly this is indicative of behavior of someone with a hidden agenda.

Eve would have seen Adams silent presence during her conversation with the serpent, as indicative of Adams approval.

Indeed, the evidence this was the case, is apparent in the same bullet point. [verse]

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Clearly the Woman had not died, just as the serpent had told her she would not. Therefore, Adam had confirmation it was safe to eat the fruit, and did not hesitate to partake.

Since Adam behaved in such a cowardly, unprotecting subtil manner and used the Woman - "bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh" as nothing more than a guinea pig, it can be said that Adam sinned [acted wrongly] first. He co-conspired against the Woman. [the serpent planting the seeds of doubt etc...in his mind prior to this event is likely what occurred]

After Adam sinned first by allowing the Woman [bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh] who he named "Woman" to be tempted by the serpent rather than standing up in defense of - not only - that which the god had told Adam [and thus preventing a serious outbreak of curses upon humanity from the god] - but also in defense of the which the god had gifted to Adam in the form of the Woman.

Let us examine the next few bullet points.

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

The effect of eating the fruit appears to have caused Adam and Woman to feel shame, as if the author of the bullet points believed that knowing 'good' from 'evil' meant that being naked was 'evil' and thus something to be ashamed of.

Or perhaps the author was trying to say that the pair were internally ashamed of their action and this transferred into the external world they shared together as "the need to cover up"...this appears to be what occurred when the god [apparently immediately - but perhaps some days or weeks later] enters the situation, by paying them a visit. They had 'cover up stories' to explain their knowledge of being naked.

And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

[interesting to note the author is now referring to the Woman as Adams "wife"] :?:

Hiding - covering up - not wanting to be exposed...So well hidden that the god could not even find them and had to call out to Adam like a parent who has a missing child.

And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

Adam come out from hiding and says;

I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Now the extremely interesting question which to this day, [to the best of my knowledge] has not been biblically answered.

Who told thee that thou wast naked?

"Who" indeed. Certainly the bullet points do not indicate anyone told them they were naked.
Then the god asks a rhetorical question.

Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Obviously the god knows Adam has done exactly that, for why else would he be hiding? The god was interested in Adam's answer. [a simply yes might have been all that was required, but apparently more covering up was what occurred.]

Adam answered the gods question by trying to cover up his wrong-doing.

The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

What a slithery little coward this man 'made in the gods image' was. Not only does Adam blame the Woman [instead of manning up] but he also implies that it is the gods fault because the god made the Woman from Adams own 'flesh and bone' 'and gave Adam the Woman to be with Adam.' [!]

The god hears Adams excuse and then - seemingly accepting it - [talk about having favorites] the god asks the Woman;

What is this that thou hast done?

The Woman replied:

The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Given that it has been established in the evidence of the bullet points of the storyline, that Adam behaved as if he had every intention of eating the fruit if it proved that the Woman survived eating it herself, we can appreciate that Adams excuse is a lie.

On the other hand we can see that the Woman's excuse was the truth.

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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post #96

Post by William »

We can also see that the god was not interested in the details as to who was telling the truth and who was lying...
The god: wrote: Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Obviously this was a rhetorical question. The answer Adam gave is reveling in that it allows one to understand what motivates Adam.

The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Therein Adam is not interested in taking responsibility for his own actions, but did rather try and pin the blame on others.

Strangely the author does not have the god recognizing this as being the case...perhaps because the author did not see it and so did not think it worth mentioning. The next line [bullet point] has the god immediately questioning the Woman...
The god: wrote: What is this that thou hast done?
The Woman admits that she was beguiled and from that, chose to eat the fruit...

The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

The Woman took some responsibility for her actions.

We have no further evidence that the Woman also mentioned that her husband was with her at the time and did not do anything to try and prevent what was happening. It is like the god simply cuts her off and immediately turns his attention to the Serpent...and when he does, the god doesn't even ask the Serpent why it what it did. He simply curses the Serpent immediately.
The god: wrote: Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
The Womans 'seed' of course is her eggs, which Adam still had to fertilize. Needless to say, the 'seed' is the offspring of the couple. Humankind.

The god then curses the Woman.
The god: wrote: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”
Apparently the god is unaware that Adam was with his wife at the time of the beguiling of the Woman, nor is the god aware as to how Adam had obviously misinformed the Woman in relation to touching of the fruit [which the god did not forbid - thus Adam had added to the gods command]
So in this, the god is putting someone in charge of the Woman who is obviously not a wise choice for the role...because the god failed to be fully informed of what had gone down...and in a seemingly sadistically motivated manner the god also greatly increased the pain the Woman should feel in childbirth...the author has us thinking that the god is reacting in an uniformed knee-jerk over-the-top manner...

Then it is Adams turn to be cursed...and the god appears to have slightly calmed down...giving the impression [in relation to others] that 'Man' is the gods favorite.
The god: wrote: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
As far as favoritism goes, the god is still cursing the whole creation of human beings and revealing an extremely sadistic nature which one could say is a type of transference and what we are witnessing is really the authors own nature being transfer onto the nature of the gods character.
The author appears to not like humanity very much. Especially not Women.

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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post #97

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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post #98

Post by onewithhim »

William wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:49 pm Adam or Eve?
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Reading the account will show us who sinned first. It was Eve. She believed Satan and willfully turned her back on Jehovah, then taking the fruit to give to Adam. He should have reprimanded her, but he did not. He thus was the second to sin, and he more catastrophically so, because he was not fooled by Satan. He knew exactly what he was doing. Whatever their motives, they both turned away from God because they preferred to do their own thing.

"Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression." (I Timothy 2:14)

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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post #99

Post by William »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #99]
It was Eve.
No doubt whomever wrote (I Timothy 2:14) was under that impression too, but as the content of this thread verifies, I have argued successfully that it must have been Adam who sinned first if adding more to what was commanded by his Creator and keeping quiet while Eve was being tempted and letting her be the guinea pig are also counted as "sin".

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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post #100

Post by John Bauer »

William wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 5:59 pm As the content of this thread verifies, I have argued successfully that it must have been Adam who ​sinned first ...
To be fair, you were hardly the only one making that argument. I was, too, you might recall, as we're others.

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