Who Sinned First?

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Who Sinned First?

Post #1

Post by William »

Adam or Eve?
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post #71

Post by Revelations won »

The last time I checked, the first person to sin was Lucifer.

The Lord commanded Lucifer to depart from their presence. There is no statement in Genesis that God ever drove Satan from the garden.

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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post #72

Post by John Bauer »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #70]
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:40 pm
His mandate was to take care of the animals not decide which would stay or go.
I don't dispute the fact that he also had a responsibility toward the animals as a steward of God's creation (cf. Gen 1:26), but the mandate I am speaking of pertains to his responsibility for keeping careful watch over the garden: "The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it" (Gen. 2:15; emphasis mine). According to Bible scholars, that word translated as "keep" (שָׁמַר, shamar) means something like guard, protect, watch over, hedge about, preserve, and so forth, and it's reflected in the responsibilities of priests in the tabernacle and temple later (read Numbers 3:7-8 for a clearer picture).1 This is not about deciding which animals stay or go, this is about maintaining the sanctity of the garden, which involves expelling that which defiles—such as the deceiving serpent. Again, as I said, God had to step in and do what Adam failed to do, expelling not only the serpent but now also Adam and Eve. (And just to make sure my Ts are crossed with PinSeeker, this was all part of God's plan all along; this was not Plan B.)

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:40 pm
It wasn't Adams garden, it was God's garden (over which he was give guadianship). Adam wouldnt have had the authority to expell anything from a garden that didn 't being to him. God bought the animals in and only God bad the authority to expell them.
I don't dispute that it was God's garden, a fact I thought was obvious enough. I am describing a scenario in which Adam was a steward assigned a priestly function, among other duties, part of which involved watching over the garden and protecting its sanctity. Consequently, because this was a God-given mandate, Adam did have the authority to perform the task he was assigned. He did not have that authority in and of himself; it was God's authority which he invested in Adam as his vice-regent (see the doctrine of imago Dei)—just as the apostles, for example, had the power to heal the sick and raise the dead, but it was God's power, not their own.

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:40 pm
If the "snake" could outsmart a hitherto perfect human, it was probably intelligent enough to get out of the immediate vicinity. And depending on how much time passed, would be might arguably have been difficult to find.
This is entertaining speculation that is altogether irrelevant to the argument.

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1 Peter J. Gentry and Stephen J. Wellum, Kingdom through Covenant: A Biblical-Theological Understanding of Covenants (Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2012), 211-212.
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post #73

Post by heistrue »

now that this has been debated for some time and regardless of the consensus as to what has this got to do with salvation of mankind ? Our Messiah suffered and died and was raised from the dead for us to be saved. This is what it is all about. Amen..

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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post #74

Post by JehovahsWitness »

heistrue wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:49 pm Yes eve did eat first how ever the Q was about who sinned first ? Did Adam tell Eve how God commanded him not to eat form the tree It is hard NOT to be the perfect human when you are the ONLY human, at the time..
If Eve ate first, Eve sinned first for eating from the forbidden tree was the sin.



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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post #75

Post by JehovahsWitness »

These are ridiculous arguments.

- A steward isn't an owner: Your steward has no right to get rid of your fourniture without your explicit permission let alone your dog! If your dog bites you or even attacks one of your children you report the incident and let the owner decide what to do with it. If Adam noted something amis as regards one of God's creatures his job was to report it, what happened next would be the owners decision and responsibility.

WAS ADAM APPOINTED AS A GUARD OR A PRIEST?

- Adam wasn't a guard. God had created no dangers and Adam had no need, nor any reason to believe there were any. He was not charged to tour the garden each day, being on the lookout for things that might harm him. His only mandate was to name the animals which evidently represented no danger to him. Adam thus could not be reprimanded for not doing what he was not asked to do.

- Adam wasn't a priest: The garden needed no sanctification nor was it in need of a mediator. The garden ( the plants, the earth, the trees...) was comprised of inanimate objects incapable of thought . Since they are incapable of sin, inanimate objects have no need of priestly services.

If God came to view the garden as defiled because of the actions of someone within it , that again would not be Adams fault or his responsibility to regulate.
If a man views his marital bed as defiled because his wife took a lover to it, it is for that man not the housekeeper to make the decision to burn the bed.
If God viewed his garden as defiled because if the presence of the snake, he (God) the owner, has no need of a priest or a mediator to sanctify it.
CONCLUSION Adam was given dominion over the animal kingdom, not told to protect the plants from talking snakes. He was given no priestly duties and if the garden came to need "sanctification" it fell on the owner to take needed measures.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:17 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post #76

Post by John Bauer »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:07 am
These are ridiculous arguments.
Because you say so? This is the logical fallacy of dismissing an argument as absurd (or ridiculous) without providing any proof (argumentum ad lapidem).

"A steward isn't an owner," you said. Yes, well, no kidding. If you would be so kind as to observe that my argument said as much and address what I actually argued, please.

Edited to add: JehovahsWitness altered his post after I published this response. But it still suffices, so I am not changing it.

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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post #77

Post by JehovahsWitness »

John Bauer wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:32 am

Because you say so? This is the logical fallacy of dismissing an argument as absurd (or ridiculous) without providing any proof (argumentum ad lapidem).

The argumentation is in the post. Please read it to the end.
John Bauer wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:32 am
Edited to add: JehovahsWitness altered his post after I published this response. But it still suffices, so I am not changing it.
I had not finished writing when you responded. If you now have no counterarguments to present I will wish you a most excellent weekend,






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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Romans 14:8

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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post #78

Post by John Bauer »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:51 am
The argumentation is in the post. Please read it to the end.
Starting where you said, "A steward isn't an owner"? I clearly did:

Image

(Edit: For some reason, this forum apparently doesn't allow adding images to posts. See image here.)

Again, please address what I actually argued (Post #72).
"Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when he is called upon to act
in accordance with the dictates of reason."
— Oscar Wilde.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all
argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle
is contempt prior to investigation."
— William Paley.

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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post #79

Post by heistrue »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:07 am These are ridiculous arguments.

- A steward isn't an owner: Your steward has no right to get rid of your fourniture without your explicit permission let alone your dog! If your dog bites you or even attacks one of your children you report the incident and let the owner decide what to do with it. If Adam noted something amis as regards one of God's creatures his job was to report it, what happened next would be the owners decision and responsibility.


- Adam wasn't a guard. God had created no dangers and Adam had no need, nor any reason to believe there were any. He was not charged to tour the garden each day, being on the lookout for things that might harm him. His only mandate was to name the animals which evidently represented no danger to him. Adam thus could not be reprimanded for not doing what he was not asked to do.

- Adam wasn't a priest: The garden needed no sanctification nor was it in need of a mediator. The garden ( the plants, the earth, the trees...) was comprised of inanimate objects incapable of thought . Since they are incapable of sin, inanimate objects have no need of priestly services.

If God came to view the garden as defiled because of the actions of someone within it , that again would not be Adams fault or his responsibility to regulate.
If a man views his marital bed as defiled because his wife took a lover to it, it is for that man not the housekeeper to make the decision to burn the bed.
If God viewed his garden as defiled because if the presence of the snake, he (God) the owner, has no need of a priest or a mediator to sanctify it.
CONCLUSION Adam was given dominion over the animal kingdom, not told to protect the plants from talking snakes. He was given no priestly duties and if the garden came to need "sanctification" it fell on the owner to take needed measures.
I see that your reply is question, so are you asking me ? You said " If " ? God never uses, an if, but or maybe..

Then your conclusion is ? You seem to be making issues up as you go along a winding path... Do you actually read a Bible ? If and when you do you will be amazed at the truth of it.

Yes, it is true that Adam was there to tend ( look after ) the Garden, not the entire world.. No animal/s were wild then in that time, they were all meek and mild and we do not know if there were any at all with Adam in the Garden. I believe that God created the Garden for man only. It has not ever been found, even to this day, correct ?

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Re: Who Sinned First?

Post #80

Post by heistrue »

William wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:50 pm
theophile wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:15 pm
[Replying to William in post #1]
It was a joint action.
I asked "Who sinned first?" In relation to "joint action", which of the pair sinned first? Who crossed the line first. Who was first over the line?
They turned and hid from God together.
I asked "Who sinned first?" not "Who hid first?".
yes both hid** from God, well,, think about that, how could they hide from God . Well how could that ever have happen, Scripture says that God told us, that form the begining He KNEW the end. Isa 46:10+

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