Who Sinned First?

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Who Sinned First?

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Adam or Eve?
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Re: Who Sinned First?

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Revelations won wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:07 pm The last time I checked, the first person to sin was Lucifer.

The Lord commanded Lucifer to depart from their presence. There is no statement in Genesis that God ever drove Satan from the garden.

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Re: Who Sinned First?

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For me at least, the answer to the question and why the question needs to be asked are integrated.

The comments/opinions in this thread have served to show me that my suspicions are correct.

The Middle Eastern mythology starts here and any other story that follows after it is subject to that shadow because they are cast in that shadow.

The Middle Eastern Mythology seeks to deceive us and I view the Christian Church [Christendom] as being one of the tools being used to deceive us all, as its men deceive their women.

Adam sinned first.

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Re: Who Sinned First?

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William wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:50 pm
Adam sinned first.
Upon what do you base this conclusion ?



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Re: Who Sinned First?

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Re: Who Sinned First?

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heistrue wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:14 pm Adam did indeed watch his woman eat first and for a good reason, she did not " SURLY die " after eating the piece of fruit...the " die "
Oh... yes... in that very day, Adam and Eve both died, just as God told Adam they would in Genesis 2:17. So right from the get-go, we have to try to understand what it really means, Biblically, to be dead.
heistrue wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:14 pm ...in this context is that when ever we sin we " die to God " in all things. God is so Perfect and Pure in all aspects that God can not be with or near imperfection...
I agree with what you say about God, 100 percent. But in the context of Genesis 3 and the sinful state that Adam and Eve -- and all of natural humanity from that day forward -- took on, they became dead in their trespasses, their sin. Spiritually, they did indeed die, that very day.
heistrue wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:14 pm The great gift of free will is why all this came about, regardless of the temptation...Yes, Adam should have stopped his wife from eating the fruit, but as she did not die on the spot, he too ate...
LOL! Not that I really disagree with what you say here, but God didn't say "on the spot," or even "in that very moment." He said "in that very day," (Gen 2:17) and he said it to Adam, not Eve, who had not been created at that point. As I said before, Adam would have told Eve what God said, the first opportunity he got, and he obviously did, because Eve knew what God had said... although she did add to it, which is very, very interesting, as JohnBauer said. I know a lot of women who exaggerate to make a point, and or add to stuff unnecessarily... :) <chuckles> :D Well, men are guilty of that, too, for sure... Seriously, though, I think that is a tendency that women have more than men, especially in view of what God said later in Genesis 3 to Eve, that her desire would be contrary to her husband.
heistrue wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:14 pm Also again, God did NOT say to NOT touch the tree. Adam's job was, after all, to tend the trees, have to touch the tress it to do that..
Well, yeah, to work the ground and keep it. You don't really have to touch trees that often to take care of them... :D But yeah.
heistrue wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:14 pm Well, Adam did not deliberately sin and defy God, he was fooled and he failed the test.
Disagree. Adam knew what God had told him, and he disobeyed, and he was not mindless in doing so. Scripture is clear that it was Eve who was deceived, and the clear implication of that is that Adam knew he was disobeying God. Se yes, it was deliberate. And then he hid from God, which indicates incontrovertibly his knowledge of his guilt.
heistrue wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:14 pm Also he had the authority of demand that the serpent go out of the garden in the first instance.
That's a good point, and I agree. But he failed to do that.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Who Sinned First?

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John Bauer wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:36 am
PinSeeker wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:46 pm John. John. I said "unintentional." Surely you agree that someone can say something that conveys a different -- even far different -- meaning than what is intended.
Of course. But this was not just a different meaning, unintentional or otherwise. It was an absurd inference—literally so illogical as to be incomprehensible.
Okay so maybe I should have said "unintended," rather than "unintentional." Does that make a difference to you? It should, but if it doesn't, so be it. It might be at least somewhat repulsive that inference could be made, because such an inference would be quite different that what was intended. That's why you are reacting the way you are; it was surely not your intention to intimate such a thing, But, like I say, what one says is important, because it can potentially lead to something very different than what is intended. And so, I agree with you on the absurdity of the inference that Adam had any control over the serpent's actions. My point, John, and it still stands, was that what you said really leads -- or at least can lead -- to that absurd inference.
John Bauer wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:36 am Addendum 1: On the other hand, if someone had said, "Adam caused his wife to be deceived," then I could see how that might imply Adam had some sort of control over Satan's actions.
AH! So you do understand... although you are saying something slightly different, here. I agree with this statement. But by the same token, to say that Adam "allowed his wife to be deceived" -- which is what you said -- one could also infer from that that Adam had given the serpent permission (implicitly or explicitly) to deceive his wife. God But that is not what was said, and we must deal with what was actually said, that through dereliction of his sacred duties—to God, to his wife, to the garden, to himself—Adam allowed (made provision for) his wife to be deceived, in which case he would have some modicum of control over Satan's actions. Surely you understand. Surely. It is an absurdity, to be sure, but, based on what you said, it wouldn't be an absurd inference.

Okay, that's quite enough on that. No offense, but it's kind of a ridiculous thing for either of us to have spent any real time on.
John Bauer wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:36 am
PinSeeker wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:46 pm Very much disagree:
We might not be disagreeing as much as you think.
<chuckles> :) Okay, I'm listening...
John Bauer wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:36 am I referred to Adam's God-given mandate to keep careful watch over the garden, and to this you replied, "All we really know is that God put Adam in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it" (and referring to the same biblical passage I cited, Gen. 2:15). Yes, well, you and I have just said the same thing, haven't we? I said "keep careful watch over" and you said "keep," both of which are interpreting the same Hebrew word (שָׁמַר, shamar).
Sure.
John Bauer wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:36 am "There is nothing there," you said, "to hear any command to 'repel invaders'." Sure, okay. But can we candidly admit that nobody said anything about invaders?
I was being a little facetious, there, John, but the point stands.
John Bauer wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:36 am Let's stick to what people are actually saying and the arguments that they are actually making.
Sure.
John Bauer wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:36 am In that vein, are you saying that nothing in the text suggests keeping careful watch over the garden? (I would say there is, and I would point to that Hebrew word and what its semantic range indicates). Or are you perhaps saying that keeping such watch doesn't include protecting the garden from a deceiving serpent? (I would say that it does, given Adam's sacred duties to God, to his wife, to the garden, and to himself.)
I think these two questions both should be answered directly, so I'm separating the two:
.
1. "Are you saying that nothing in the text suggests keeping careful watch over the garden?"
No, I'm not saying or suggesting that at all. Adam is charged with the protection of all the occupants of the Garden -- the animals and all that is in the Garden -- among other things. He is its keeper and tender.

2. "Are you perhaps saying that keeping such watch doesn't include protecting the garden from a deceiving serpent?"
No, as was the case in the first question, I'm not saying or suggesting that at all here in the second question either. I said something of protection above, and reiterate that here.
.
However -- you knew there was going to be a "however," right? :) -- God gives Adam no command, explicit or implicit or anywhere in between, to banish from the Garden all that He placed there. And this is fitting with something that runs throughout Scripture. You shall not murder. Vengeance is the Lord's. Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned. God separates the wheat from the tares. Surely, as the prophet Micah tells us, we are to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God. But we are not to take the place of God and brandish the authority that only He has.
John Bauer wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:36 am Moving along. I said that if Adam had properly executed this mandate, the serpent would not have been in the garden at all. You replied that God allowed the serpent to enter the garden. Okay, but I fail to see how this conflicts with what I said. Let me describe the scenario step-wise:

1. God places Adam in the garden with a mandate.

2. God allows the serpent to enter the garden.

3. When Adam hears the serpent's deceiving tongue, he immediately kicks the serpent out.

4. Thus, Adam fulfills his mandate (which prevents his wife from being deceived).
See above.
John Bauer wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:36 am Yes, the question of why God allowed the serpent to enter the garden is an interesting one. But no matter what the answer turns out to be, the point stands that step 3 should have happened but it did not. That is how Adam allowed his wife to be deceived.
Yes, I disagree that step 3 "should have happened." Adam did not correct his wife, and did not protect her from the devil's deception (or "scheme," using the language Paul uses in Ephesians 6:
  • "Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication." (Ephesians 6:10-18)
John Bauer wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:36 am Allow me to emphasize here that I am not trying to convince you. I am only trying to show that my argument is consistent with and makes sense in light of the relevant biblical texts.
Okay, well, me, too, John. Me, too.
John Bauer wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:36 am I am also trying to show that not only is William not wrong but he is in fact correct.
Yes, I know you're trying to show that... :)
John Bauer wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:36 am I was not reacting as if you had accused me of something. Nothing personal was either perceived or intended—on my end, at least.
That certainly seemed to be the case. I accept your explanation.
John Bauer wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:36 am I was criticizing the logic of your inference, calling it an absurd train wreck.
Hopefully you see that it was meant to be a "train wreck," of sorts. As I said -- clarified, above -- it was an unintended inference that could very possibly be made from your statement. I'm glad you think it absurd, because that's... what it is.
John Bauer wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:36 am And if I am wrong, if it actually was entirely logical, then I've asked you to show me how.
Hopefully you now see. If you don't, no matter. I suggest we drop it.
John Bauer wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:36 am You are talking to someone who is self-consciously fallible and comfortable with being wrong.
Sure. Me, too.
John Bauer wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:36 am
PinSeeker wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:46 pm Okay, quit with the "absurd" nonsense. Or we can end this conversation right here.
I am willing to cease calling things "absurd" but it has to be a two-way street, for you were the one who opened that door.
Not to start an argument about an argument, John... :)... but no, I didn't.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Who Sinned First?

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Post by JehovahsWitness »

John Bauer wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:36 am 3. When Adam hears the serpent's deceiving tongue, he immediately kicks the serpent out.


The bible indicates Adam did not hear the "serpent" speak at all. If, as seems likely, Adam was not present when Eve conversed with the snake, Adam was presented with a fait accompli and could only take action retrospectively.


WOULD ADAM HAVE HAD THE RIGHT TO EXPEL THE SERPENT FROM THE GARDEN OF EDEN?


No, Adam obviously had no authority to evict the serpent from the garden. One tenant does not have the authority to evict another.
  • Adam's mandate was to take care of the animals not decide which would stay or go. If a father told his babysitter to take are of his twins , would you have the right to sell one if it misbehaved ?
  • It wasn't Adams garden, it was God's garden (over which he was give guadianship). Adam wouldnt have had the authority to expell anything from a garden that didn 't being to him. God bought the animals in and only God had the authority to expell them.

JW



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Re: Who Sinned First?

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JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:13 am
John Bauer wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:36 am 3. When Adam hears the serpent's deceiving tongue, he immediately kicks the serpent out.
The bible indicates Adam did not hear the "serpent" speak at all.
Disagree with you, here, JW. Let's look at the text:
  • "Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, 'Did God actually say, "You shall not eat of any tree in the garden"?' And the woman said to the serpent, 'We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, "You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die." ' But the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.' So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths." (Genesis 3:1-7, emphasis added)
This was part of the whole "time lapse" part of the discussion earlier between JohnBauer and me. There was no time lapse -- or not any kind of significant one, anyway -- between the Eve/Satan conversation and Eve's and Adam's partaking of the fruit. It was all one continuous scene, really, and Adam was right there with her through the whole incident, from the encounter with Satan, through the conversation between Eve and Satan, all the way through to God's pronouncements and the expelling of Adam and Eve from the Garden.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:13 am No, Adam obviously had no authority to evict the serpent from the garden.
Here, though, JW, I very much agree.

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Re: Who Sinned First?

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PinSeeker wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:27 pm
Disagree with you, here, JW. Let's look at the text:
  • "Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, 'Did God actually say, "You shall not eat of any tree in the garden"?' And the woman said to the serpent, 'We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, "You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die." ' But the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.' So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths." (Genesis 3:1-7, emphasis added)
This was part of the whole "time lapse" part of the discussion earlier between JohnBauer and me. There was no time lapse -- or not any kind of significant one, anyway -- between the Eve/Satan conversation and Eve's and Adam's partaking of the fruit. It was all one continuous scene, really, and Adam was right there with her through the whole incident, from the encounter with Satan, through the conversation between Eve and Satan, all the way through to God's pronouncements and the expelling of Adam and Eve from the Garden.
Although Adam may have been there, even standing right beside Eve, there's no indication that he heard anything or understood what the serpent was saying. It could very well be the case that only Eve could hear or understand the serpent. Just as if you heard someone speak in a foreign language you didn't understand; it would be meaningless.

We just don't know, and to claim we do is unjustified by the evidence: what is written.

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Re: Who Sinned First?

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Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:07 pm Although Adam may have been there, even standing right beside Eve, there's no indication that he heard anything or understood what the serpent was saying.
Okay, granted, but there's no explicit or implicit indication otherwise, either, and the silence is deafening, especially in view of the fact that at the end of the accounting of the conversation and the eating -- which is a mere four verses -- it is crystal clear that Adam was there with Eve (verse 6).
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:07 pm It could very well be the case that only Eve could hear or understand the serpent.
Well, you can hold to that if you want -- as if you need my, or anyone else's, approval -- but I hold that that cannot be the case. Genesis 3:6, as I said, is very clear, and really indisputable.
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:07 pm Just as if you heard someone speak in a foreign language you didn't understand; it would be meaningless.
A "foreign language?" Where did that even come from? Surely you're not understanding that Adam and Eve spoke different languages, or that the serpent spoke to Eve in a tongue that only she, and not Adam, understood. If that's what you're saying, that's actually kind of funny; I've heard a lot of things in my time, but that's a new one on me... :) Even so, surely you know that there were not multiple tongues until God made it so in Genesis 11, "confus(ing) the language of all the earth" (Genesis 11:8) at the tower of Babel.
Miles wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:07 pm We just don't know, and to claim we do is unjustified by the evidence: what is written.
We do know; it is quite well justified. We'll agree to disagree on that.

Grace and peace to you.

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