Calvinism Settled

[Benson]

For the purpose of this discussion, the commonly accepted historic representative of modern Reformed Theology will be John Calvin.

Jesus in Matt. 7:16 clearly specifies His Followers are to be identified by their personal fruits, later put to text by Paul in 1 Corinthians 13. As well, John specified in 1 John 4:20 that for a Believer to not love a Brother in Christ was to clearly show that Believer was a liar, and loved not God.

John Calvin was a material witness upon the heresy trial against Stephen Servitus by the Godless Roman Catholic organization. Rather than forgive and show love to Servitus, Calvin contributed to and approved his murder. Calvin acted in concert with the Roman Catholic's presumptive governence over the souls of men. Calvin acted just as did Paul who was accessory to the Stoning of Deacon Stephen by the first century Jews.

John Calvin with his so called doctrines of predestined Salvation thereby demonstrated those doctrines produce ghastly error without Godly fruit. No supposed explanation or excuse for Calvin's willful participation in the horrific and needless killing of Stephen Servitus will provide validation of his Reformism. Calvin was by the example of Christ giving His mercy unto the heretical Samaritans obligated to do the same for Servitus. Jesus did not condemn unbelievers to immediate execution, but rather left ultimate judgement to The Father.

This judgemental posture and unloving conduct characterizes all writings and pursuits of both Puritan and modern Reformists. For example, American Puritan immigrants slaughtered Native Americans, calling them Godless savages deserving such. Today, the endless and strident writings of Reformists continue to deny the character, salvation through Christ, and mercy of God to those created in His image. All this takes place because, as did the Pharisees, they worship the Text of Scripture, "Thinking in them they have life." They call such worship of the Text "exegesis."

[Benson]

Let me help you with Romans and God's Election.

No need, thank you. It's you who needs understanding here. I surely don't mean to project myself as superior to you or anybody else in any way, but what Paul says is crystal clear.

No place in Romans speaks of individual election, but every mention of election is done upon a segment of the redeemed, as The Church. The Church is the Elect.

It's true that Church... Christ's Church... is made up of the Elect, for sure. But it is not correct to say that "no place in Romans speaks of individual election. Paul's whole emphasis (Romans and elsewhere) is to preach the Gospel to individuals. And in Romans 9 in particular, he answers -- before they can be raised by anyone -- any objection by any individual regarding God's purpose of election and His sovereignty in drawing individuals to Himself (calling them, via His Holy Spirit) with statements llike the following:

• "(God) has mercy on whomever He wills, and he hardens whomever He wills..." -- He does not say "whichever nation I will," but rather "whom ever."

• "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' ” -- notice the personal pronoun used ("you") and the references to individuals ("O man," "what is molded"), as opposed to nations.

Surely what Paul is saying here applies to all men, but what he is saying applies to all individuals individually. It's unmistakable. Unless, of course, one just denies it willfully, which is certainly possible, but that doesn't somehow change the force of what Paul is saying.

Remember, Jeremiah's Potter narrative, restated by Paul apart from its original context, speaks not of individuals, but of the Nation of Israel. Paul's use of the Potter Analogy was applied to broken Judaism being remade into The Church.

Yes, I know Jeremiah 18 very well. But what you are not understanding is that God's Israel was always -- and always will be -- made up of individual believers... those who are called by the Lord. Ezekiel's "narrative" is applicable here, too, the connection being the house of Israel (Jeremiah 18:6 and Ezekiel 36:22). In Ezekiel 36, we read:

• "Thus says the Lord GOD: 'It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name... I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations... I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God." (Ezekiel 36:22-32)

What's happening in both Jeremiah and Ezekiel is that, yes, all of Israel is being spoken to as one, but what is being said applies to all individuals within Israel also. When each of us is called by God -- via His Spirit -- we are born again (both Paul and Peter are very clear about this in Ephesians 1-2 and 1 Peter 1, respectively, and Jesus Himself in speaking to Nicodemus in John 3) and our heart of stone is removed, and we receive a heart of flesh. God puts His Spirit within us and causes us to walk in His statutes. Thus, He becomes our God and we become part of His Israel and are counted among His people; we become true Jews, according to what Paul says at the end of Romans 2:

• "For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." (Romans 2:28-29)

So finally, after Paul sets out God's purpose of election, he sums it up in Romans 11 by saying, "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved" (11:25-26).

Blessings upon your best efforts.

And yours, for sure.

All Reformists carry the burden of hardened hearts, not being able to grasp God's Love and incredible Mercy upon His image bearers, His created humans.

You're welcome to your opinion, but as I said, the opposite is true. The Reformers like Martin Luther and John Calvin, sinners that they were, understood just how magnificent -- how amazing -- God's love and mercy and glory really are, and it was their lives' work to convey that to all.

I will be praying for you.

Thank you. Much appreciated. And I for you. Grace and peace to you.

Yes, it remains correct to say no place in Romans speaks of individual election. Attempting to place individual election into Romans, or into any other Scripture, is to presume one's personal conclusions equate to the Text of Scripture. Do your conclusions equate to The Stated Word of God? Do you add your conclusions? Yes? No?

Ezekiel 36 identified "Oh House of Israel," not any individuals. Yet, you have stated "Surely what Paul is saying [is individual election]" Please go ahead and confirm for me here, is your personal "surety" the Word of God?

Let us see if you answer this, or if you run away.

[PinSeeker]

Simply because Paul described his ideology does not mean he laid out The Gospel of Christ.

Well yes, he absolutely laid it out, by proclaiming it and preaching it.

Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 7:12, "Speak I, not the Lord." This proves not all of Paul's writing is the Word of God.

No, there we see that, although Paul knows what has been said of Jesus 's sayings on divorce that were later written down in the Gospels, he acknowledges that he is not aware that Jesus ever spoke specifically to a situation in which one spouse becomes a Christian and the other remains unconverted. Paul carefully distinguishes between the written words of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels and his own understanding of how Jesus's teaching would apply to this new situation. In doing so, it is clear that Paul views his admonition here as authoritative and inspired, not merely as human wisdom.

What is in the Bible is God's Word. All of it.

Yes, I do have Grace and Peace from Jesus, but not as you presume to patronizingly confer. Lol.

LOL! You misunderstand. I merely wish you God's grace and peace, in the same manner as Paul himself did on many occasions in his letters. "Patronizing..." LOL! My goodness. No.

Yes, it remains correct to say no place in Romans speaks of individual election.

If to this statement you add, "in my opinion," then it's correct. But as it is, not so much. This, Benson, is your opinion. And it's erroneous.

Attempting to place individual election into Romans, or into any other Scripture, is to presume one's personal conclusions equate to the Text of Scripture.

Absolutely not. This again is your opinion.

Do your conclusions equate to The Stated Word of God?

Yes.

Do you add your conclusions?

No.

I have no problem with you stating what I have said is my opinion.

Ezekiel 36 identified "Oh House of Israel," not any individuals.

Individuals make up the House of Israel, do they not, Benson? So all individuals in that House are spoken to as one. And Peter and Paul do the same thing several times in Acts when they address the men of Israel (i.e., "Men of Israel, hear these words..." -- Acts 2:22).

Please go ahead and confirm for me here, is your personal "surety" the Word of God? Let us see if you answer this, or if you run away.

LOL! Sure it is.

Grace and peace to you, Benson.

[Benson]

A commendable attempt to say your personal conclusions are equal to the Word of God. I Pity your error.

God's Word is "Living and Active," "Settled in Heaven," and "It Judges." Your personal conclusions do none of that. Do you agree?

[PinSeeker]

A commendable attempt to say your personal conclusions are equal to the Word of God.

Can't we say you do the exact same thing? Yes, we can. I say my "conclusions" are in accordance with God's Word. You say yours are. Okay, fine, right?

I pity your error.

And here again, right back atcha, friend.

God's Word is "Living and Active," "Settled in Heaven," and "It Judges."

Much agreed.

Your personal conclusions do none of that. Do you agree?

Sure, but likewise, yours.

Grace and peace to you.

[Benson]

Thank you for using my examples as a standard for your own. Doing so does not augment the validity of my statements, but rather reveals your need.

Might I receive form you more grace and peace? Even Paul as the least of Saints was able to successfully transmit that. As well, surely you might mix in with the grace and peace some God Breathed prophecy.

Continuing regards, and Thanks.

[PinSeeker]

Thank you for using my examples as a standard for your own. Doing so does not augment the validity of my statements, but rather reveals your need.

No idea what this even means. Oh well, no matter.

Might I receive form you more grace and peace?

I've been as patient as possible through this exchange, despite your bullying attempts and lack of grace.

As well, surely you might mix in with the grace and peace some God Breathed prophecy.

And yet again, right back at you, my friend.

Continuing regards, and Thanks.

Right, thank you, although your regards seem insincere, really. But thank you. Grace and peace to you.

[Benson]

Remember, it was by the act of God's Prophecy that Paul would speak Grace and Peace to the recipients of his letters.

Do you accomplish the same?

[PinSeeker]

Remember, it was by the act of God's Prophecy that Paul would speak Grace and Peace to the recipients of his letters.

It was a personal closing from Paul to the readers of his personal letters. As in, for example, "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you." (1 Thessalonians 5:28)

Do you accomplish the same?

Is what I am writing to you inspired by God via His Holy Spirit? No, of course not; that's a ridiculous thought. But my purpose in wishing you grace and peace is the same as Paul's was/is. I'm offering it in the same sense he did.

Grace and peace to you.

[Benson]

Yes. And what is the material or spiritual outcome of you and Paul saying "Grace and Peace?" Is the effect anything more than sentiment?

If you were a Professional Church Talker standing at a pulpit, it would be simple to understsnd saying "Grace and Peace" is a rhetoric device to garner acceptance and favor upon a sermon.

Even as the source and embodiment of all Grace, Jesus never spoke the word "Grace." As well, because of His unknowable Love and Mercy, He never spoke of limited atonement. Is this good news?

[PinSeeker]

Yes. And what is the material or spiritual outcome of you and Paul saying "Grace and Peace?" Is the effect anything more than sentiment?

Grace and peace to you, benson. Or, as the LORD, through Moses, told Aaron to say in blessing the Israelites: "The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace." If that means nothing to you coming from me, so be it.

If you were a Professional Church Talker standing at a pulpit, it would be simple to understsnd saying "Grace and Peace" is a rhetoric device to garner acceptance and favor upon a sermon.

Some might think that, sure.

Even as the source and embodiment of all Grace, Jesus never spoke the word "Grace." As well, because of His unknowable Love and Mercy, He never spoke of limited atonement. Is this good news?

Concerning grace, no, He never actually said "grace." But He sure exhibited it, didn't He? And embodied it.

Regarding limited atonement, Jesus certainly did say, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out" (John 6:37). The implicit statement in that is that the Father does not give to Jesus all; many He does not give Jesus. So Christ's atonement, while most certainly sufficient for all, is "limited" in the sense that it was only intended and effectual for God's Elect. You see that clearly, don't you? Surely you do. God's salvation is 100% effective and accomplishes all it was meant to accomplish; His purposes cannot be thwarted. Jesus sums it up with His last cry on the cross, "It is finished!"

Grace and peace to you, benson.



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