Let's Debate and Discuss Calvinism.

[Benson]

The humanly contrived and horrific doctrine of John Calvin and his Reformed peers, including the Puritan Theologians of his day, displays their personal wasteland of religious thinking.

The TULIP acronym presents the lie that God created most people to have them in Hell for eternity. Calvinists claim The God of Hope and Love upon humans purposes to use His eternal damnation of souls as merely a contrast to illustrate His favor upon The Elect. As well, Calvin and the Reformists claim Scripture states God selects individuals for Salvation. Yet when pressed upon this, they admit individual Election is only a logical conclusion applied to the Text of Scripture which speaks of Corporate Election of The Church and Kingdom.

A statement by Calvin himself reveals the error of "Total Depravity," which specifies a complete lack of awareness of sin and of God. Calvin is recorded to have spoken "Amidst man's sinful and unregenerate state there are hardly a few shining sparks that are not utterly extinguished." Here, Calvin admits "Total Depravity" does not completely incapacitate human awareness and free will, and that they still have "shining sparks" of awareness. Otherwise, Calvin really struggled to make his heresy of "Total Depravity" stay in flight. He and fellow exegeters work their best through volumes of their own writings to shave and bend Scripture to their desire. They produce hundreds of volumes of systematic error, calling it "theology."

I cannot stop laughing. John 11:40-45 is the account of Lazarus being resurrected. "They saw Jesus [raise Lazarus] and believed in Him." Yet, Calvin and the Reformists claim "spiritual rebirth precedes belief." They ignore how the text here shows Belief in Jesus immediately after seeing Him raise Lazarus, whereby their belief preceded any spiritual rebirth. Their belief was the first thing to happen in their Salvation, not spiritual rebirth.

Calvinists know nothing about God's Love for people, nothing of His plan for Restoration of men, nothing of His Mercy upon sinners being far more important than Judgement, nothing upon upon completed Justification, nothing of His Love upon the World He created. Calvinists have no joy, no Communion with The Father, no humility unto His Word beyond worshipping their own exegesis of the Text. They are brothers with the Pharisees who worshipped The text of the Mosaic Law, "thinking in them [the words of books] they have life."

Tell us, would you want Calvinists teaching your children in Sunday School most all of them are going to Hell? Yes?

The silence to this Thread shows inability to give an answer to the contrary. "Father, Hallowed be your Name. Your Kingdom come, your will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven, where Calvin's writings are not recorded. Amen, and Amen."

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Benson in post #1]

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[Benson]

Thank you.

Might you please let me know where in the Forum this thread now exists? I appreciate your moderation.

[John Bauer]

Let's Debate and Discuss Calvinism.

Sure. Perhaps you could start by identifying a specific subject to debate and discuss, as "Calvinism" generally is a massive systematic collection of beliefs—too much to address in a single thread. Perhaps we can deal with this claim:

• According to TULIP,^[1] "God created most people to have them in hell for eternity."

I submit that this is not exclusive to Calvinism (or TULIP), that the vast majority of Christianity believes this.

Your turn.

_____
^[1] TULIP is an acronym for doctrinal beliefs that are unique to Calvinist theology. It stands for:
.

Total depravity,
Unconditional election,
Limited atonement,
Irresistible grace, and
Perseverance of the saints.
.

See R. C. Sproul, "TULIP and Reformed Theology: An Introduction," Ligonier Blog, March 18, 2017.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Benson in post #3]

Might you please let me know where in the Forum this thread now exists?

It still exists here, but if you go to the "Board Index" link above (just below the top of page image) you'll see that the forum is separated into several main sections, of which two are "Debate" and "General Discussion." Each section has guidelines and rules, with the Debate threads meant to specifically involve a question or topic for debate presented in an OP, while the General Discussion threads can be just that ... general discussions without necessarily a question or topic for debate. New threads should be started in the appropriate section. For example, for the Debate section of the forum, the Rules are described here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6

Another set of useful links is given here:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=18785

[Benson]

Let's Debate and Discuss Calvinism.

Sure. Perhaps you could start by identifying a specific subject to debate and discuss, as "Calvinism" generally is a massive systematic collection of beliefs—too much to address in a single thread. Perhaps we can deal with this claim:

• According to TULIP,^[1] "God created most people to have them in hell for eternity."

I submit that this is not exclusive to Calvinism (or TULIP), that the vast majority of Christianity believes this.

Your turn.

_____
^[1] TULIP is an acronym for doctrinal beliefs that are unique to Calvinist theology. It stands for:
.

Total depravity,
Unconditional election,
Limited atonement,
Irresistible grace, and
Perseverance of the saints.
.

See R. C. Sproul, "TULIP and Reformed Theology: An Introduction," Ligonier Blog, March 18, 2017.

How have you concluded "the vast majority of Christians believe this?" Do you have data for this statement, or merely an intuitive perception stemming from your personal world view which you now "submit?" I do not just submit but I clearly state there is no vast majority of Christians which believe God predestined most humans to go to Hell.

Does not Reformed Theology state in relation to Gentiles "narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there be that find it," when in fact those words rather were spoken by Christ exclusively to the Jews? Describe your assumptions upon this.

Are you saying Calvinism cannot be discussed here in this Forum? Just speak the answer here, rather than trying to submit how things intuitively seem to be.

[John Bauer]

How have you concluded "the vast majority of Christians believe this?"

From having familiarized myself with various forms of Roman Catholic and Protestant theology, my own views once being characterized by Arminian theology (former Baptist) but later submitting to the biblical force of Calvinist theology (now Presbyterian). Roman Catholics and Protestants constitute roughly 87 percent of all Christians (i.e., "the vast majority").^[1] There are exceptions, of course—there nearly always are—but they represent a fractional minority within traditional Christian theology (such as universalism, open theism, and process theology).

There is no need to discuss how Calvinists believe that God created people destined for hell, but do other Christians believe this? They do, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestants alike. They believe that God knew from all eternity who would and who would not choose to believe. Most believe that election works this way, by God looking down the corridors of time and seeing who would choose to believe and electing them for salvation.^[2] (Again, I realize there are exceptions, like open theism, but we are discussing "the vast majority of Christians.")

There is, however, an uncomfortable yet inescapable corollary to this belief: It means he also knew who would remain unbelievers their entire lives—and created them anyway. He knew they would end up in hell and created them anyway. It was by "each person's free response to [God's] grace," of course, as the Catholic Catechism says, but nevertheless it is widely held even among Protestants that "God, owing to his infallible prescience of the future, has appointed and ordained from eternity all events occurring in time."^[3]

There is a wealth of data for all of this. If you contest any part of it, let me know which and I will provide the evidence.

Does not Reformed theology state in relation to Gentiles "narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there be that find it," when in fact those words rather were spoken by Christ exclusively to the Jews? Describe your assumptions upon this.

Do you intend to emphasize the word "most" in your statement that "God predestined most humans to go to hell"? If that is the case, then I would reject that term. I don't believe anyone knows how many are saved compared to how many are lost, therefore we cannot say whether it is most or not. At best, I believe we can only concur with the Revelation of saint John that the redeemed are "a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language." What percentage of the total number of humans who have ever lived does that represent? We have no idea.

Are you saying Calvinism cannot be discussed here in this Forum? Just speak the answer here, rather than trying to submit how things intuitively seem to be.

As already explained to you by others, this area is for Debate purposes. Of course we can debate specific things about Calvinism here. But if you want to have a discussion about Calvinism generally, then you're probably looking for the General Discussion area of the forums. Here in this area, you must identify something specific to debate—as we are doing right now.

_____

^[1] There are approximately 2.6 billion Christians in the world (as of 2020); 1.3 billion are Roman Catholic, 900 million are Protestant, and 220 million are Eastern Orthodox, while the rest we'll just call Other.

^[2] It should be noted that, according to the media ministry Catholic Answers, the Roman Catholic church allows for the possibility of unconditional election.

^[3] Catholic Encyclopedia, s.v. "Predestination."

[Benson]

How have you concluded "the vast majority of Christians believe this?"

From having familiarized myself with various forms of Roman Catholic and Protestant theology, my own views once being characterized by Arminian theology (former Baptist) but later submitting to the biblical force of Calvinist theology (now Presbyterian). Roman Catholics and Protestants constitute roughly 87 percent of all Christians (i.e., "the vast majority").^[1] There are exceptions, of course—there nearly always are—but they represent a fractional minority within traditional Christian theology (such as universalism, open theism, and process theology).

There is no need to discuss how Calvinists believe that God created people destined for hell, but do other Christians believe this? They do, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestants alike. They believe that God knew from all eternity who would and who would not choose to believe. Most believe that election works this way, by God looking down the corridors of time and seeing who would choose to believe and electing them for salvation.^[2] (Again, I realize there are exceptions, like open theism, but we are discussing "the vast majority of Christians.")

There is, however, an uncomfortable yet inescapable corollary to this belief: It means he also knew who would remain unbelievers their entire lives—and created them anyway. He knew they would end up in hell and created them anyway. It was by "each person's free response to [God's] grace," of course, as the Catholic Catechism says, but nevertheless it is widely held even among Protestants that "God, owing to his infallible prescience of the future, has appointed and ordained from eternity all events occurring in time."^[3]

There is a wealth of data for all of this. If you contest any part of it, let me know which and I will provide the. evidence.

Does not Reformed theology state in relation to Gentiles "narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there be that find it," when in fact those words rather were spoken by Christ exclusively to the Jews? Describe your assumptions upon this.

Do you intend to emphasize the word "most" in your statement that "God predestined most humans to go to hell"? If that is the case, then I would reject that term. I don't believe anyone knows how many are saved compared to how many are lost, therefore we cannot say whether it is most or not. At best, I believe we can only concur with the Revelation of saint John that the redeemed are "a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language." What percentage of the total number of humans who have ever lived does that represent? We have no idea.

Are you saying Calvinism cannot be discussed here in this Forum? Just speak the answer here, rather than trying to submit how things intuitively seem to be.

As already explained to you by others, this area is for Debate purposes. Of course we can debate specific things about Calvinism here. But if you want to have a discussion about Calvinism generally, then you're probably looking for the General Discussion area of the forums. Here in this area, you must identify something specific to debate—as we are doing right now.

_____

^[1] There are approximately 2.6 billion Christians in the world (as of 2020); 1.3 billion are Roman Catholic, 900 million are Protestant, and 220 million are Eastern Orthodox, while the rest we'll just call Other.

^[2] It should be noted that, according to the media ministry Catholic Answers, the Roman Catholic church allows for the possibility of unconditional election.

^[3] Catholic Encyclopedia, s.v. "Predestination."

I am certain you feel familiar with many doctrinal pursuits.

The Reformists error upon the "many" in Matt. 7:13 to assume Christ is speaking of Gentiles, whereas the context of The Sermon being given to Jews who are mindful of The Law requires the "many" to be about the majority of Jews who will reject Jesus and thereby be killed and displaced in AD 70.

Volumes of diligent exegesis do not constitute a wealth of data when the contents of those volumes reflect little Kingdom fruit. Academic rigor is not wealth, lay compliance is not fruit.

Calvinism is not from a Biblical force, but rather from exegetic over reach is an extension of Phariseeic legalism upon the letter of the Law.

Denominational doctrines do not enumerate the laity faith and belief which dome claim to know. Most congregations merely show up and sit in naivete for prechewed, partially digested, and regurgitated spirituality from a professional talker. You cannot refute this.

There indeed does remain a core necessity to reveal the horrific and Godless blot of Calvinism. And, you are wise to suppress such discussion here for the reason that God's Word and work in men is to potentiate their willful decisions about Him and His Son. The less discussion upon Calvinism to be undertaken allows less fatal error from white knuckled Reformism to occur, and less deception of limited atonement to be smeared upon hearts.

Please learn God's infallible prescience and absolute judgements are Providentially overcome by His unknowable Love, ceaseless Mercy, and creative Providence. Abraham, Moses, King Hezekiah, and Nineveh testify of such.

[John Bauer]

[Replying to Benson in post #8]

1. I suggested that we debate your claim that TULIP says God created people destsined for hell, and I started by providing the controversial claim that this view is actually believed by the vast majority of Christians.

2. You asked how I arrived at the conclusion that "the vast majority" believe this.

3. So I showed you, in addition to what their belief entails, along with a promissory note of further evidence proving they believe this.

4. And in response to that, you said something about

• a Calvinist interpretation of Matthew 7:13 and what you think it means,
  .
• how data isn't data if there is no Kingdom fruit,
  .
• Calvinism being an exegetic over-reach and an extension of Pharisaic legalism,
  .
• your unflattering opinion about Christian denominations and churches,
  .
• the need to censure and censor Calvinism,
  .
• my needing to learn God's infallible prescience and absolute judgments.

In other words, you had absolutely nothing to say in response to my argument. It therefore stands unrefuted. I don't think I have ever before won a debate this fast. Thanks for the experience, mate. Cheers.

[Benson]

Yes, you have won exactly what you desired. A continuation of self promoted words and ideas on false theology from Calvinists.

Matthew 7:13 from Christ is an easy place to see the error of Calvinism. There they deny the context and audience of what Jesus said. Paul in Acts 17:27 used the word "ara," meaning "perhaps/haply" to describe what Calvinists try do hard to identify as "Irresistible Grace." Ara has nothing to do with "Irresistible Grace through Unmerited Election because of Total Depravity." Ara is all about human choice. Jesus did not speak TULIP.

Please let me know. Do you or any Calvinists desire flattery? Yes? No? This is so good to see God's characterization of a froward human heart easily demonstrated.