Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

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Benson
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Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

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Post by Benson »

Matthew 7:14 gives Jesus stating in The Sermon on the Mount to the Jews, "Narrow is the way that leads unto life, and few there be that find it."

Calvinism specifies all who enter the Kingdom of Heaven are individually elected and predestined to be the exclusive recipients of Christ's limited atonement for sin. Calvin and his adherents today therefore are saying, because of Christ's statement cited above, God created the vast majority of people with His intention to send them to Hell for eternity. They claim this is verified by declaring Salvation of "All" actually means "All who are elected by God."

Are Calvinists thereby adding their thoughts to the very Word of God by inserting that phrase, "who are elected by God?" If I say I am "submitting" this question, it means I am allowed to speak it by declaring it seems to be a good idea.

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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

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Post by onewithhim »

Benson wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:17 am Matthew 7:14 gives Jesus stating in The Sermon on the Mount to the Jews, "Narrow is the way that leads unto life, and few there be that find it."

Calvinism specifies all who enter the Kingdom of Heaven are individually elected and predestined to be the exclusive recipients of Christ's limited atonement for sin. Calvin and his adherents today therefore are saying, because of Christ's statement cited above, God created the vast majority of people with His intention to send them to Hell for eternity. They claim this is verified by declaring Salvation of "All" actually means "All who are elected by God."

Are Calvinists thereby adding their thoughts to the very Word of God by inserting that phrase, "who are elected by God?" If I say I am "submitting" this question, it means I am allowed to speak it by declaring it seems to be a good idea.
Adherents of Calvinism misunderstand what is meant by the election of certain people. In the beginning, after Adam sinned, God put into implementation the plan for salvation. He planned for the election of a certain group of people, but not specific individuals. He planned for a certain number to be with Christ in heaven, but He hadn't picked out what individuals would make up that group. Calvinism falls like a stone thrown into the river.

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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

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Post by 2timothy316 »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:43 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:43 pmIt's not about how we react it's how they react. There are people out there of differing view of God calling themselves elect and calling the others trash.
But if they're going to Heaven and I'm not, it's true. You're asking them not to notice that they're better than others at morality.
How do you know where you're spending your eternity?
I'm not asking them to not notice what they think they are, I'm asking them not to treat others as less then human.
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:43 pmFor what reason, is yet to be determined. Normally they say something about, 'we can't know god's thoughts' junk.
We can at least know which actions are good and which ones are evil, break commandments, and so on and so forth. We also know at least something about the promise of Heaven from the Bible. So can we know God's thoughts? Hopefully, if he's already told them to us.
According to the predestine doctrine it doesn't matter what anyone knows, it has been predetermined as to everyone's fate is. Apparently in this doctrine knowledge doesn't save you or good actions. If their god hasn't given a person faith, then that's it, they're going to eternal torment.
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:43 pmNot getting a job vs eternal torture is comparing apples to orangutans.
Yes, and I would hope God wouldn't construct people with limitations that prevent them from getting into Heaven because that seems like more of a permanent thing. I would also hope people really could do anything they set their mind to and that God wouldn't make people retarded but he does. Being retarded is pretty permanent; it lasts a lifetime. And it's not one job that person can't have; it's most things people want to do, that person cannot.
Is sending a person like that to eternal torment righteous? Humans are more just than the false predestination god.
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:43 pmSure. But why stop because you're not as good as someone else? How many things do you do that others do better yet you still do it because you love it or need it? I am not so good at a game called twilight imperium, I lose more than I win. But I love playing that game so I will not stop.
But being good isn't fun. It sometimes means sacrificing the things you want so you can do good. Sometimes it's hard to turn the other cheek, and treat people decently when they don't treat me that way. I don't want to. It's not fun. I don't gain any satisfaction or pleasure from it, but I think the idea here is that I should do it anyway in order to be good.
Doing good is for peace and a clean conscience. Yet 'doing good' must be defined as what that exactly is and I don't think the false predestination god should be the one to define that seeing how he is willing to torture people eternally for conditions that he placed on them. The false predestination god is a sicko.

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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

Post #83

Post by Purple Knight »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:01 pmHow do you know where you're spending your eternity?
I'm not asking them to not notice what they think they are, I'm asking them not to treat others as less then human.
You're asking them to treat others as equal to themselves. If they're good and those others are evil, I don't see why they ought to. In fact, I see that as probably harmful to the evil person.

I intentionally surround myself with people more moral than I am. I don't care if they like me. I don't care if they treat me well. I get insulted every day. I get called a Nazi and worthless and racist and evil, BECAUSE I AM. If they don't notice they're better than me, if they don't remind me they're better than me, then how do I get better? How would I know to rid myself of my habits and adopt theirs?

If they treat me as if I'm already morally equal to them, when I am not, that deception only hurts me in the long run.

You know that one parent who never criticises? You know that one guy who always tells people they did a good job, even when they didn't? That's the feelgood guy. That's the guy whose actions (okay, probably, since I don't know what God is thinking) are sending people to Hell. I don't want to be treated as equal if I'm a murderer or a rapist or a racist. I don't want to be told good job when I did a cruddy job. If I need to change, I want to be told so. Yes, by the people who are good already. Yes, they notice that how they are is right, and how I am is wrong. They're doing a positive thing with that knowledge.

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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

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Post by 2timothy316 »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:23 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:01 pmHow do you know where you're spending your eternity?
I'm not asking them to not notice what they think they are, I'm asking them not to treat others as less then human.
You're asking them to treat others as equal to themselves. If they're good and those others are evil, I don't see why they ought to. In fact, I see that as probably harmful to the evil person.
Should they follow the what the Bible says?
"Do nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with lowliness of mind considering that the others are superior to you, as you look out not only for your own interests, but also for the interests of others.” (Phil. 2:3) When a person treats another as trash is that has nothing to warrant being treated as trash simply because they do not believe what they believe, how is that good?
I intentionally surround myself with people more moral than I am. I don't care if they like me. I don't care if they treat me well. I get insulted every day. I get called a Nazi and worthless and racist and evil, BECAUSE I AM. If they don't notice they're better than me, if they don't remind me they're better than me, then how do I get better? How would I know to rid myself of my habits and adopt theirs?
With the false predestination god it doesn't matter if you all these things and get better, rid yourself of habits and adopt theirs. If you've predestined for eternal torture there is nothing they or you can do about it.
If they treat me as if I'm already morally equal to them, when I am not, that deception only hurts me in the long run.
Not according to the predestined god. That deception and hurt would have been predestined. Or if they didn't treat you as an equal the result would be same according to the predestination god.
You know that one parent who never criticises? You know that one guy who always tells people they did a good job, even when they didn't? That's the feelgood guy. That's the guy whose actions (okay, probably, since I don't know what God is thinking) are sending people to Hell. I don't want to be treated as equal if I'm a murderer or a rapist or a racist. I don't want to be told good job when I did a cruddy job. If I need to change, I want to be told so. Yes, by the people who are good already. Yes, they notice that how they are is right, and how I am is wrong. They're doing a positive thing with that knowledge.
Wouldn't it be cool if any of this mattered to the predestination god? It doesn't though because everyone's fate was already determined before anything you said here takes place by that sadistic false predestined god.

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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

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Post by PinSeeker »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:15 am Time is a concept in our own heads.
So, one minute -- sixty seconds -- is a relative concept and may be totally different depending on who you ask. Or depending on whether one is in Pennsylvania or Arizona. I see. LOL!
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:15 am Linear time hasn't even been proven.
Well it doesn't need to be, because it's an indisputable fact.
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:15 am Linear time hasn't even been proven. Why because no one has been able to go back physically to any event in history.
That time is linear doesn't need to be proven, because it's an indisputable fact. Ever hear of the concept of a time line? Yeah, so, if it's a line, it's linear. Regarding time, we might say 'chronological,' of course, but chronology is linear... things... events... can be placed in chronological order. Time travel -- backwards or forward -- is still linear. Yes, neither the past nor the future are physical concepts but rather abstract in nature. But there is always, at any point in time since creation, a past reality and a future reality. Wow.

Okay, opinions, um, noted... :) Grace and peace to you, OWH.

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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

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Post by 2timothy316 »

PinSeeker wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:30 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:15 am Time is a concept in our own heads.
So, one minute -- sixty seconds -- is a relative concept and may be totally different depending on who you ask. Or depending on whether one is in Pennsylvania or Arizona. I see. LOL!
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:15 am Linear time hasn't even been proven.
Well it doesn't need to be, because it's an indisputable fact.
Alternative facts I guess.
The fact is no one knows what time is other than it's a concept.
https://www.britannica.com/science/time
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:15 am Linear time hasn't even been proven. Why because no one has been able to go back physically to any event in history.
That time is linear doesn't need to be proven, because it's an indisputable fact. Ever hear of the concept of a time line? Yeah, so, if it's a line, it's linear. Regarding time, we might say 'chronological,' of course, but chronology is linear... things... events... can be placed in chronological order. Time travel -- backwards or forward -- is still linear. Yes, neither the past nor the future are physical concepts but rather abstract in nature. But there is always, at any point in time since creation, a past reality and a future reality. Wow.

Okay, opinions, um, noted... :) Grace and peace to you, OWH.
Give your references that time is linear. Show me the science of time. Other wise it is YOUR opinion that will be noted.

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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

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Post by PinSeeker »

Just to correct what Benson (now banned, obviously) said here:
.
Benson wrote:Matthew 7:14 gives Jesus stating in The Sermon on the Mount to the Jews, "Narrow is the way that leads unto life, and few there be that find it." Calvinism specifies all who enter the Kingdom of Heaven are individually elected and predestined to be the exclusive recipients of Christ's limited atonement for sin. Calvin and his adherents today therefore are saying, because of Christ's statement cited above, God created the vast majority of people with His intention to send them to Hell for eternity. They claim this is verified by declaring Salvation of "All" actually means "All who are elected by God."
Calvin and his adherents today neither ever said, nor ever would say, that "God created the vast majority of people with His intention to send them to Hell for eternity." But it is a reality that is a by-product of His not having selected some to have mercy and compassion upon and grant eternal life. This other group He has endured with much patience and love, having given them up to their own passions (Romans 1).
Benson wrote:Are Calvinists thereby adding their thoughts to the very Word of God by inserting that phrase, "who are elected by God?"
Logically, no.
.
.
So, having corrected the above:
onewithhim wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:57 pm Adherents of Calvinism misunderstand what is meant by the election of certain people.
No, but many who stand opposed to Calvinism misunderstand what Calvin and thus true Calvinists -- and I say true Calvinists, because there are such people who would be classified has hyper-Calvinists, who misunderstand what Augustine and Calvin really taught -- really advocate(d) regarding the true Biblical doctrine of predestination. Such seems to be the case here.

onewithhim wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:57 pm In the beginning, after Adam sinned, God put into implementation the plan for salvation.
This assertion is in direct opposition to what Paul says in Ephesians 1:3-4...
.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him."
.
...and therefore is obviously -- given that one actually believes Scripture to be true -- incorrect.

onewithhim wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:57 pm He planned for the election of a certain group of people...
Indisputably correct, again, given one believes Scripture to be true, but...

onewithhim wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:57 pm ...but not specific individuals.
Well, individuals make up the whole, so logically, this is incorrect. And Paul, in Ephesians, is writing to the church -- a specific group of people, made up of believers -- so again, logically, this is incorrect.

onewithhim wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:57 pm He planned for a certain number to be with Christ in heaven...
Again, indisputably correct, but...

onewithhim wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:57 pm ...but He hadn't picked out what individuals would make up that group.
And again, indisputably incorrect, as per Ephesians 1 as noted above.

onewithhim wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:57 pm Calvinism falls like a stone thrown into the river.
No, but everyone is entitled to his opinion.

Grace and peace to all.

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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

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Post by Purple Knight »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:41 pmShould they follow the what the Bible says?
If the Bible tells them to act lowly and they are not lowly, that's asking for an act. Maybe the problem is me, because I see humility as a form of lying. Polite lying, but lying all the same. I think (just my opinion) that people should be honest with each other, especially about who needs to improve and who doesn't.
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:41 pmIf you've predestined for eternal torture there is nothing they or you can do about it.
There are things I can do, God just knows I won't because he knows how it turns out.

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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

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Post by Purple Knight »

PinSeeker wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:30 pmSo, one minute -- sixty seconds -- is a relative concept and may be totally different depending on who you ask. Or depending on whether one is in Pennsylvania or Arizona. I see. LOL!
Actually he's right. Scientists are starting to find evidence that time is not linear.


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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

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Post by PinSeeker »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:11 pm Actually he's right. Scientists are starting to find evidence that time is not linear.
Let's go with chronologically progressive, then. :)

Grace and peace to you.

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