Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

[Benson]

Matthew 7:14 gives Jesus stating in The Sermon on the Mount to the Jews, "Narrow is the way that leads unto life, and few there be that find it."

Calvinism specifies all who enter the Kingdom of Heaven are individually elected and predestined to be the exclusive recipients of Christ's limited atonement for sin. Calvin and his adherents today therefore are saying, because of Christ's statement cited above, God created the vast majority of people with His intention to send them to Hell for eternity. They claim this is verified by declaring Salvation of "All" actually means "All who are elected by God."

Are Calvinists thereby adding their thoughts to the very Word of God by inserting that phrase, "who are elected by God?" If I say I am "submitting" this question, it means I am allowed to speak it by declaring it seems to be a good idea.

[PinSeeker]

Have you never heard of Westboro Baptist Church? Such groups are a product of this vicious false doctrine.

Yes, I know very well who those folks are. I think of them as you do, I'm sure. They are... misled. Grace and peace to you.

Yes, mislead by the belief they are 'elect'.

Well they may be, but that's a non sequitur, really. Yeah, like I told myth-one, a lot of folks think they are Christians but are really not; they may even be self-deceived... or just proclaiming themselves Christians only to try to gain some perceived advantage here or there, knowing all the while that they are not Christians (a.k.a. lying).

They think they are better than others...

Not necessarily; they just do a very bad job of rebuking people for what they think is sinful.

...as I said the predestination doctrine leads many people to being haughty.

And as I said, 1.) the doctrine of predestination should naturally lead people to total humility, and 2.) the Westboro people are Baptist and probably think Biblical predestination is something very different than what it really is, but that is a non-sequitur also.

One the larger groups is “Radical traditionalist” Catholics. Islam too has a large population that thinks they are predestined for heaven and all others are followers of Satan.

Well, I'm not sure what a "radical traditionalist" catholic is, but catholicism and Ishmaelites certainly have their... issues... ... concerning predestination (among other things).

The doctrine is evil as well as false leading who knows how many millions to think they are better than others, even to the point that they think and act toward those they consider not elect are worthless.

To those who have warped ideas of it, maybe so.

Grace and peace to you.

[Purple Knight]

Tiger Woods is a great example of being something but having that something lost. These that think they are elect don't think they can have lose their elect status. The haughtiness is comes from judging others as inferior to themselves. James 1:6 says that God opposes the haughty I will be giving no punishment, I can only warn.

But they are superior to others. I'll admit they're superior to me any day of the week. Yes, you can get injured and lose your athletic ability, and presumably you can become evil and lose your status as good, but you're suggesting that happens from simply realising what is true. George Soros is good. I am not. What's haughty about realising what is true?

A person can't judge themselves or others where they will spend eternity.

Okay, arguably saying, "I will go to Heaven" is sort of speaking for God, but on this matter God has already spoken. Accept Jesus as your saviour. Repent. Forgive. Do X, Y, and Z and go to Heaven. If they know they've done X, Y, and Z then they know that they are going to Heaven unless God is a liar. And they know others haven't done that because they can bloody see that. So where's the haughtiness in just seeing the truth?

Some people are gifted, and gifted is exactly the right word, because I didn't earn my high IQ, Tiger Woods didn't earn his innate athletic ability, and George Soros didn't earn his innate goodness.
You can practice and get better but only at what you have to start with.

So a person with Down's syndrome and severe mental handicap or some other genetic mental disorder is just screwed? Wow! This makes this false doctrine worse and worse sounding!

I'm sorry, but someone with Down Syndrome will never be the greatest scientist, a psychopath born with a missing conscience will never be as good as George Soros or Ghandi, and a severely crippled person will not be among the greatest athletes. If you don't believe people have limitations, which is all I'm claiming here, perhaps you should prove me wrong by sprouting wings and flying. People can do absolutely anything and have no limitations, right?

I know many that suck at golf. They don't play because they're good, the play because they like the game. Perhaps people should stop doing good deeds because it makes them morally superior and do good deeds because they like to do good deeds.

So people shouldn't want to be good?

[William]

Predestination is simply a state of being aware that The Creator knows all the intimate details of what [is yet] to occur in the creation. When one understands this, one surrenders to its logic and accepts it is just the way it is.

In relation to "most humans being predestined for hell" there is no evidence this is the actual case, and the numbers of individuals who might be experiencing some kind of hell or another are not necessarily there for the rest of forever...and the Creator would have known that from the go get.

Since this did not stop the creator from creating the creation anyway, it is reasonable to assume that while The Creator knew that suffering of all kinds would occur, The Creator also knew this was merely part of a phase and will not last forever...or The Creator wouldn't have ever created a place where suffering could occur, in the first place.

[myth-one.com]

God will not force everlasting life on anyone.

He doesn't "force" anything. But everything that happens is according to His perfect will. God is God. He is our sovereign King.

Grace and peace to you.

If one is elected to everlasting life,

but they had rather simply die and be done with life,

but God in His perfect will makes them live forever,

then God forced His perfect will upon them.

It's simple logic.

=============================

You obviously do not understand the purpose of man.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and placed a host of angels on the earth as caretakers. These were spiritual beings who understood all mysteries of the universe. Some of these spiritual caretakers, led by Satan, rebelled against God's authority. As a result the earth came to be without form, void, and dark.

At this point God intervened and went to Plan B. He recreated the earth and made mortal mankind a little lower than the angels to be trained as replacement caretakers for those who rebelled. Now, if the original angels who understood the mysteries of the universe rebelled, why give the new caretakers this knowledge initially. Let them learn it the hard way through on the job training, the old school of hard knocks. That way they will appreciate the gift of eternal life more when it is given.

How does this new mortal "mankind" achieve eternal life? Through believing in the Son of God. The original angels assigned to the earth were obviously not respecters of God at the time of their rebellion. These lower beings (mankind) must respect and believe in the Son of God as a prerequisite to becoming a spiritual being which lives forever.

Man is in training to learn that the best way to rule the earth is under the rules of God. Meanwhile, Jesus has gone to prepare a new place for humans who accept Him. When He returns to save man from decimating the earth as the original caretakers did, He will bring the new place He has prepared with Him.

[2timothy316]

Tiger Woods is a great example of being something but having that something lost. These that think they are elect don't think they can have lose their elect status. The haughtiness is comes from judging others as inferior to themselves. James 1:6 says that God opposes the haughty I will be giving no punishment, I can only warn.

But they are superior to others. I'll admit they're superior to me any day of the week. Yes, you can get injured and lose your athletic ability, and presumably you can become evil and lose your status as good, but you're suggesting that happens from simply realising what is true. George Soros is good. I am not. What's haughty about realising what is true?

It's not about how we react it's how they react. There are people out there of differing view of God calling themselves elect and calling the others trash.

A person can't judge themselves or others where they will spend eternity.

Okay, arguably saying, "I will go to Heaven" is sort of speaking for God, but on this matter God has already spoken. Accept Jesus as your saviour. Repent. Forgive. Do X, Y, and Z and go to Heaven. If they know they've done X, Y, and Z then they know that they are going to Heaven unless God is a liar. And they know others haven't done that because they can bloody see that. So where's the haughtiness in just seeing the truth?

Yet predestination is not about doing x,y,z it's about even if you do x,y,z it doesn't matter because later it has been predesnted that a person would stop doing xyz and burn forever. Not because the person choose to stop this predestine god stopped giving them faith. For what reason, is yet to be determined. Normally they say something about, 'we can't know god's thoughts' junk.

Some people are gifted, and gifted is exactly the right word, because I didn't earn my high IQ, Tiger Woods didn't earn his innate athletic ability, and George Soros didn't earn his innate goodness.
You can practice and get better but only at what you have to start with.

So a person with Down's syndrome and severe mental handicap or some other genetic mental disorder is just screwed? Wow! This makes this false doctrine worse and worse sounding!

I'm sorry, but someone with Down Syndrome will never be the greatest scientist, a psychopath born with a missing conscience will never be as good as George Soros or Ghandi, and a severely crippled person will not be among the greatest athletes. If you don't believe people have limitations, which is all I'm claiming here, perhaps you should prove me wrong by sprouting wings and flying. People can do absolutely anything and have no limitations, right?

But we are not talking about someone being a scientist. We are talking about a person burning forever here and having no chance because they were predetermined by this god. The person not becoming a scientist might just make a person feel bad for a bit...but eternal torture? Not getting a job vs eternal torture is comparing apples top orangutans.

I know many that suck at golf. They don't play because they're good, the play because they like the game. Perhaps people should stop doing good deeds because it makes them morally superior and do good deeds because they like to do good deeds.

So people shouldn't want to be good?

Sure. But why stop because you're not as good as someone else? How many things do you do that others do better yet you still do it because you love it or need it? I am not so good at a game called twilight imperium, I lose more than I win. But I love playing that game so I will not stop.

[PinSeeker]

Predestination is simply a state of being aware that The Creator knows all the intimate details of what [is yet] to occur in the creation.

Well, no, because that statement puts God inside our linear time, which is not the case. He's the Creator, not the created.

In relation to "most humans being predestined for hell" there is no evidence this is the actual case, and the numbers of individuals who might be experiencing some kind of hell or another are not necessarily there for the rest of forever...and the Creator would have known that from the go get.

Yeah, the whole "predestined for hell" meme is just a very simple way to see it and/or a misguided way of putting it, anyway. God, via His Holy Spirit, through Paul, is very clear in Romans 9 that He (God, of course) made everyone according to His own purpose, which is His right as Creator. Some He made for noble use (His Elect) and some He made for common use. And those who were created for common use still receive grace, just not the grace of salvation. He endures them with much patience, as Paul says, and if we go back to Romans 1, we see there that He gives them up to their own selfish desires. At any rate, He did this to show His wrath and make known His power -- to glorify Himself -- which is the reason He does everything He does... it's His chief end.

Since this did not stop the creator from creating the creation anyway, it is reasonable to assume that while The Creator knew that suffering of all kinds would occur, The Creator also knew this was merely part of a phase and will not last forever...or The Creator wouldn't have ever created a place where suffering could occur, in the first place.

It was man that brought sin and suffering into the world, not God. God redeems His creation, and will finally and fully redeem it when He returns (in the Person of Christ).

Grace and peace to all.

[PinSeeker]

It's simple logic.

That's pretty much the problem, in a nutshell, myth-one. Yes, it is "simple" logic.

Grace and peace to you.

[2timothy316]

Predestination is simply a state of being aware that The Creator knows all the intimate details of what [is yet] to occur in the creation.

Well, no, because that statement puts God inside our linear time, which is not the case. He's the Creator, not the created.

Who said our time is linear? Time is a concept in our own heads. We keep a record in our heads of something changing from one state to another. If we keep one cold liquid in a hot room on a table and another in a thermos. The liquid in the thermos doesn't heat up at the same rate as the liquid on the table. Does that make the thermos a time machine? No. If we make the now warm liquid cold again did we make something go back in time? No. Thermodynamics has one direction and while something like the liquids can be predicted how it will react the liquids can't be viewed or visited in the future. The human decisions and choices are not like a liquid. Why not? Because they are not physical things. No brain surgeon has ever seen or held a thought. While the True God can read thoughts and desires and He can allow a person's heart to stay hardened or soften it. No where does it say that He controls everyone's individual thoughts and desires. Only the false god of the predestine doctrine does this. Which makes him responsible for all of mankind's suffering. A person murder's another, because he has no faith that there is a God thus murder is ok. Who's responsible? The false god of the predestine doctrine. Why? Because he refused to give that person faith.

Also, don't use the 'they haven't be called yet' line. That logic is flawed because why give a person faith AFTER they have does so much sin and destruction. That too makes all that pain the responsibility of the false god of the predestine doctrine. As he could've given that person faith sooner but didn't. Why didn't he? No one who follows the false god of the predestine doctrine knows. Their god is a complete mystery to them.

Linear time hasn't even been proven. Why because no one has been able to go back physically to any event in history. Why not? Because the past doesn't exist physically exist. Neither does the future physically exist. No one can visit it or view it. They can try to predict it and like the weather. Yet these predictions are based on data that exists in the present based on the records of the past. Movies like Back to the Future and End Game are fun fantasy but that is all they are, fantasy. So you say the True God is not in a linear time line, you're right and neither are we.

[William]

Predestination is simply a state of being aware that The Creator knows all the intimate details of what [is yet] to occur in the creation.

Well, no, because that statement puts God inside our linear time, which is not the case. He's the Creator, not the created.

Just because one can be within a creation does not mean one is created.

In relation to "most humans being predestined for hell" there is no evidence this is the actual case, and the numbers of individuals who might be experiencing some kind of hell or another are not necessarily there for the rest of forever...and the Creator would have known that from the go get.

God, via His Holy Spirit, through Paul, is very clear in Romans 9 that He (God, of course) made everyone according to His own purpose, which is His right as Creator. Some He made for noble use (His Elect) and some He made for common use. And those who were created for common use still receive grace, just not the grace of salvation. He endures them with much patience, as Paul says, and if we go back to Romans 1, we see there that He gives them up to their own selfish desires. At any rate, He did this to show His wrath and make known His power -- to glorify Himself -- which is the reason He does everything He does... it's His chief end.

Which is why people are sometimes confused between that idea of The Creator and Satan. I can see plainly that the arrogance of this being that Christians and others worship as a Creator as reflected through Paul simply adds to the arrogance of this being as recorded in various other script related.
Personally I do not believe such a being as presented actually exists but is [simply] an outward manifestation of an inward condition - a false image of The Creator projected onto a throne and given the "God" title by those who believe that if they were in such a position then that is how they would also act...
To me, such an image reduces The Creator to nothing more than an abusive man who is only interested in keeping his position over the others, no matter who suffers as a consequence. History is full of such personalities, so it is really no wonder that religions would form and prosper as a result.

Since this did not stop the creator from creating the creation anyway, it is reasonable to assume that while The Creator knew that suffering of all kinds would occur, The Creator also knew this was merely part of a phase and will not last forever...or The Creator wouldn't have ever created a place where suffering could occur, in the first place.

It was man that brought sin and suffering into the world, not God. God redeems His creation, and will finally and fully redeem it when He returns (in the Person of Christ).

Irrelevant to what I wrote. The image of The Creator in the garden of Eden story is - yet again - simple a false representation based more of what human males, [in particular] in positions of power and influence, project onto The Creator.

[Purple Knight]

It's not about how we react it's how they react. There are people out there of differing view of God calling themselves elect and calling the others trash.

But if they're going to Heaven and I'm not, it's true. You're asking them not to notice that they're better than others at morality.

For what reason, is yet to be determined. Normally they say something about, 'we can't know god's thoughts' junk.

We can at least know which actions are good and which ones are evil, break commandments, and so on and so forth. We also know at least something about the promise of Heaven from the Bible. So can we know God's thoughts? Hopefully, if he's already told them to us.

Not getting a job vs eternal torture is comparing apples to orangutans.

Yes, and I would hope God wouldn't construct people with limitations that prevent them from getting into Heaven because that seems like more of a permanent thing. I would also hope people really could do anything they set their mind to and that God wouldn't make people retarded but he does. Being retarded is pretty permanent; it lasts a lifetime. And it's not one job that person can't have; it's most things people want to do, that person cannot.

Sure. But why stop because you're not as good as someone else? How many things do you do that others do better yet you still do it because you love it or need it? I am not so good at a game called twilight imperium, I lose more than I win. But I love playing that game so I will not stop.

But being good isn't fun. It sometimes means sacrificing the things you want so you can do good. Sometimes it's hard to turn the other cheek, and treat people decently when they don't treat me that way. I don't want to. It's not fun. I don't gain any satisfaction or pleasure from it, but I think the idea here is that I should do it anyway in order to be good.