Matthew 7:14 gives Jesus stating in The Sermon on the Mount to the Jews, "Narrow is the way that leads unto life, and few there be that find it."
Calvinism specifies all who enter the Kingdom of Heaven are individually elected and predestined to be the exclusive recipients of Christ's limited atonement for sin. Calvin and his adherents today therefore are saying, because of Christ's statement cited above, God created the vast majority of people with His intention to send them to Hell for eternity. They claim this is verified by declaring Salvation of "All" actually means "All who are elected by God."
Are Calvinists thereby adding their thoughts to the very Word of God by inserting that phrase, "who are elected by God?" If I say I am "submitting" this question, it means I am allowed to speak it by declaring it seems to be a good idea.
Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #51Moderator Warning2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:42 pm Well I do agree, your replies are certainly disappointing.
Please do not carry the discussions into personal comments.
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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #52There is no "Old Testament Covenant," but rather one everlasting Covenant, revealed in progressively better and fuller ways, finally culminating in the true Fulfillment, Christ. Yes, there are covenants made through the course of the Old Testament, with Adam and then Noah (life), Abraham (a great nation, land), Moses (law), and David (kingship), but again, there is one everlasting Covenant, revealed in progressively better ways through the Old Testament and finally culminating in Christ Jesus, the true Fulfillment.
Even Jesus says in that all of Scripture -- "Moses and the prophets, so Old Testament included -- is about Him. So no, ever since the Fall in Genesis 3, it has always been about repentance for sin and belief in Christ Jesus; the only difference being that all those before Christ were pointed forward to Him (by Moses and the prophets, whom God spoke through and revealed Christ), and all those after Christ are pointed back to Him and His life, death, and resurrection, and forward to His return.myth-one.com wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm Under the New Testament Covenant, man must believe in Jesus as his Savior to gain everlasting life...
LOL! No, that's not my "claim" at all! God's Elect are... His Elect. As David says in Psalm 139, and this is true for all Christians, "in (God's) Book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for (us), when as yet there was none of them." Paul is very clear in Ephesians 1:4, where he says, "...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him." So what I am "claiming," myth-one -- and this is only because Scripture is very clear is the case -- is that yes, we do choose and come to repentance and belief in Christ because God has purposed it in us from before the foundation of the world. And this is because if we had been left to ourselves, because of the effect of the Fall on all of us, we never would have come to repentance and belief,myth-one.com wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm But you are claiming that God can add or subtract (or elect) whomever He chooses from the list of those who believe in Him and are presently listed as inheritors of everlasting life.
Well it would be, sure, but thanks be to God, it is not the case.myth-one.com wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm If so, then God is not honoring His words in the New Testament. Isn't that a problem?
Yeah He, um, doesn't do that. The number is what it is, before the foundation of the world. See above. Interesting that you bring up the "whosoever believes" thing. Do you think that is original to John and his gospel, myth-one? If so, then... well, that's not correct. That idea and even that phraseology comes from the prophet Joel, whom God spoke through. Chapter 2 of Joel's prophecy, to be specific. Paul draws upon that very passage, too, in Romans 9. So we look there, in Joel 2, to see the full context:myth-one.com wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm That is, if God adds or subtracts from the group of "whosoever believeth" in John 3:16...
“...And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls."
So you see, it is the LORD who calls, and THEN those whom God has called will call on the LORD and be saved. John and Paul are both drawing from this very passage. And this is exactly what Paul is saying when he says, in Romans 9:15-16, "For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." Yes, we indeed do make a choice, and Paul is exhorting us to do that, but our choice comes (inevitably) because of and after God's choice of His Elect. If it were the other way around (which is what you "claim"), God's Elect would not really be His elect.
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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #53myth-one.com wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm Under the New Testament Covenant, man must believe in Jesus as his Savior to gain everlasting life.
But you are claiming that God can add or subtract (or elect) whomever He chooses from the list of those who believe in Him and are presently listed as inheritors of everlasting life.
PinSeeker wrote:LOL! No, that's not my "claim" at all! God's Elect are... His Elect.
So your okay with God choosing only those He "elects" to be saved.In Posting #12 on Page 2, PinSeeker wrote:So God's granting of salvation to His Elect and them only is His prerogative as Creator;
But is the "elect" identical to "whosoever believeth" in John 3:16?
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
In other words, is the following equivalent to John 3:16:
For God so loved the world, that whosoever He elects, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #54Well that's kind of what 'elect' means, isn't it? In the verb form of the word, if one elects to do something, that means, by definition, that he or she makes the choice... whatever it is. And in the noun form, the very definition is, "people who are chosen or singled out." So with regard to God's salvation, absolutely I am "okay" with God choosing/electing some to His salvation, because, well, Scripturally, it is what it is.myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:15 pm So your okay with God choosing only those He "elects" to be saved.
Yes. As I said, John is referring to Joel 2 in writing this passage in chapter 3 of his gospel. The very fact that they come to repentance and belief is because they are members of God's Elect, the ones whom He has elected unto His salvation. It is His sovereign choice. That's surely not to say that no one makes a free-will choice, but it is to say that no one will not make that choice unless they are members of God's Elect (and even then, they will not do so until the God-appointed time, that time at which He calls them and changes their hearts from stone to flesh). And when this happens, they will inevitably do so, possibly not immediately, like I said, but inevitably.myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:15 pm But is the "elect" identical to "whosoever believeth" in John 3:16?
God's will regarding our salvation does not depend on our choice to repent and believe. This is exactly what Paul is saying in Romans 9:16. And it's the concept of unconditional election.
And, each member of the Elect will inevitably respond positively -- at some point -- once his or her heart has been changed by God via His Holy Spirit. This is exactly what Ezekiel is saying in chapter 36 of his prophecy and Paul is saying in Romans 9 through 11. And this is the concept of irresistible grace.
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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #55If God choses or singles out those to be saved without regards to whether or not they believe in Jesus as their Savior, then God is contradicting Himself.PinSeeker wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:03 pmWell that's kind of what 'elect' means, isn't it? In the verb form of the word, if one elects to do something, that means, by definition, that he or she makes the choice... whatever it is. And in the noun form, the very definition is, "people who are chosen or singled out."myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:15 pm So your okay with God choosing only those He "elects" to be saved.
The only possibility that He is not contradicting Himself is the possibility that the "elect" theology is false.
So I'll go with the second choice -- the elect stuff is a myth.
This is not to say that God does not choose people for special assignments.
But He never choses who will be saved.
That is a personal choice for every human.
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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #56This isn't what predestination teaches, but rather that only those who are predestined by God will believe in Jesus as their savior. You may indeed disagree with this doctrine, but presenting what it doesn't teach as evidence against it isn't valid. This is what as known as a strawman argument.myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:03 pm
If God choses or singles out those to be saved without regards to whether or not they believe in Jesus as their Savior, then God is contradicting Himself.
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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #57Okay. So God "elects" a group who will become believers.Tcg wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:00 pmThis isn't what predestination teaches, but rather that only those who are predestined by God will believe in Jesus as their savior. You may indeed disagree with this doctrine, but presenting what it doesn't teach as evidence against it isn't valid. This is what as known as a strawman argument.myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:03 pm
If God choses or singles out those to be saved without regards to whether or not they believe in Jesus as their Savior, then God is contradicting Himself.
Tcg
And those not pre chosen will never become believers.
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It still leads to be a lie because the words of God in the Bible state that "whosoever" believeth shall be saved.
Pre-selected "elect" and whosoever still seem to be at odds.
So John 3:16 should be changed to read as follows:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever God elects should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
That seems correct as it takes mankind out of the loop.
It seems that mankind can do as they please, since everything about salvation has been preset!
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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #58LOL! No, but if He didn't choose any -- if there was no such thing as the grace of God -- then nobody (except for the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) would ever enter into those "pearly gates."myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:03 pm If God chooses or singles out those to be saved without regards to whether or not they believe in Jesus as their Savior, then God is contradicting Himself.
Well, the Elect are clearly mentioned prominently in the Bible, especially by Paul in Romans 9-11. So if one believes the Bible, he or she has to decide what do do with it, what to make of it. It cannot be ignored, which it seems like you are doing, if you are not just in outright denial. And if one of those two is the case, you are not alone. But even continuing in it, whichever it is, will not disqualify you as a Christian, of course. At any rate, the doctrine concerning God's Elect is clearly in the Bible, so the only question then, assuming he or she actually believes what's in the Bible, is how it is to be understood.myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:03 pm The only possibility that He is not contradicting Himself is the possibility that the "elect" theology is false.
No, but you'll understand one day, sooner or later.
Oh, He does. Just like He chose what was clean and what was unclean in the Old Testament (all through the book of Leviticus). And just as Jesus chose His disciples rather than them choosing Him (John 15:16).
Sure it is. And the ones whom God has chosen will not fail to make the Right Choice. But yes, everyone gets exactly what he or she chooses.
God's election of some to salvation is true, and that we all make a choice is true. The question, then, is how to reconcile the two. As Scripture is very clear, it depends not on man and his strength or will, but on the Lord. This does not mean that we do not have a choice to make, but that God is the initiator of salvation in the person who eventually comes to Christ. The correct reconciliation of the two is exactly as I have said: God elects, unconditionally, and then, upon His call by His Holy Spirit, we choose, repent, and believe (which is all one action, really). And He enables us to persevere to the end. Salvation, in its entirety, is of the Lord.
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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #59Right. Those not among God's Elect will choose... poorly (Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade reference).myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:27 pm Okay. So God "elects" a group who will become believers. And those not pre chosen will never become believers.
I understand what you are saying here, but this thinking is incorrect. That's why I explained the following:myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:27 pm It still leads to be a lie because the words of God in the Bible state that "whosoever" believeth shall be saved. Pre-selected "elect" and whosoever still seem to be at odds.
- Interesting that you bring up the "whosoever believes" thing. That idea and even that phraseology comes from the prophet Joel, whom God spoke through, Chapter 2 of Joel's prophecy, to be specific. Paul draws upon that very passage, too, in Romans 9. So we look there, in Joel 2, to see the full context:
“...And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls."
So you see, it is the LORD who calls, and THEN those whom God has called will call on the LORD and be saved. John (in John 3) and Paul (in Romans 9) are both drawing from this very passage. And this is exactly what Paul is saying when he says, in Romans 9:15-16, "For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." Yes, we indeed do make a choice, and Paul is exhorting us to do that, but our choice comes (inevitably) because of and after God's choice of His Elect. If it were the other way around (which is what you "claim"), God's Elect would not really be His elect.
Well that's just the thing, really. We can't take God's purpose of election or mankind out of the loop. You are doing the former. And taking either out of the loop is... foolish.myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:27 pm So John 3:16 should be changed to read as follows: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever God elects should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16). That seems correct as it takes mankind out of the loop.
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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #60PinSeeker, in just a few words, what is your definition of the elect?
I ask because you state that:
"God's election of some to salvation is true, . . ."
Does that mean others who are not in the "elect" can be saved without being elected?
Thanks
I ask because you state that:
"God's election of some to salvation is true, . . ."
Does that mean others who are not in the "elect" can be saved without being elected?
Thanks