Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

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Benson
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Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

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Post by Benson »

Matthew 7:14 gives Jesus stating in The Sermon on the Mount to the Jews, "Narrow is the way that leads unto life, and few there be that find it."

Calvinism specifies all who enter the Kingdom of Heaven are individually elected and predestined to be the exclusive recipients of Christ's limited atonement for sin. Calvin and his adherents today therefore are saying, because of Christ's statement cited above, God created the vast majority of people with His intention to send them to Hell for eternity. They claim this is verified by declaring Salvation of "All" actually means "All who are elected by God."

Are Calvinists thereby adding their thoughts to the very Word of God by inserting that phrase, "who are elected by God?" If I say I am "submitting" this question, it means I am allowed to speak it by declaring it seems to be a good idea.

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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

Post #61

Post by 2timothy316 »

myth-one.com wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:27 pm
It still leads to be a lie because the words of God in the Bible state that "whosoever" believeth shall be saved.

Pre-selected "elect" and whosoever still seem to be at odds.

So John 3:16 should be changed to read as follows:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever God elects should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

That seems correct as it takes mankind out of the loop.

It seems that mankind can do as they please, since everything about salvation has been preset!

Party! Party! Party!
If the doctrine was true I'd feel the exact same way! This is the thinking that this sinister doctrine leads to! On top of that it leads to haughtiness for people that think they are elected. Looking down on and condemning others from their false belief they have been chosen for heaven while another doesn't stand a chance. It's teachings like this is why more and more people leave churches that teach such things. When governments turn on such religions that teach this doctrine, no one will raise a finger to save them from the world dismantling these organizations....because I mean aren't they already saved? People around the world are growing tired of this predestined doctrine as it creates two class of people. The haves and have nots. Which is just another way to keep the rich and powerful, rich and powerful and those with little with little.

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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

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Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:44 pm PinSeeker, in just a few words, what is your definition of the elect?
All those chosen of God into His salvation. Is that few enough words for you? :)
myth-one.com wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:44 pm I ask because you state that: "God's election of some to salvation is true, . . ."
Okay, well, is your belief that God elects all to salvation? Because we know and agree, I’m sure, that not all are saved, so that cannot possibly be right. Right? Concerning “some,” though, the only two things we can say about that is, it is at least somewhat less than “all,” and that they will number as the stars, as the grains of sand on the seashore.
myth-one.com wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:44 pm Does that mean others who are not in the "elect" can be saved without being elected?
Only the Elect of God will be saved. They are the only ones who will call upon the Lord. So the “whosoever” is absolutely true.
myth-one.com wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:44 pm Thanks
Most welcome. You’re certainly not alone in finding it hard to digest. Coming face to face with a holy and sovereign God is not easy. But really, the issue is not understanding fully the effect of the Adam’s fall on all of mankind... the concept of total depravity, man’s utter inability to do anything at all to better his lot before God. It’s a wonder then that God chooses/elects anyone at all. But He does, and this is grace. Unmerited favor. Amazing grace.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

Post #63

Post by PinSeeker »

2timothy316 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:01 pm This is the thinking that... leads to haughtiness for people that think they are elected.
Actually no, because they know how undeserving they are. It should cause people to react in total humility precisely because they know they are fully deserving of the opposite of what they have received. And it should cause them to react with total compassion toward all other people, especially unbelievers.
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:01 pm Looking down on and condemning others from their false belief they have been chosen for heaven while another doesn't stand a chance. It's teachings like this is why more and more people leave churches that teach such things. When governments turn on such religions that teach this doctrine, no one will raise a finger to save them from the world dismantling these organizations....because I mean aren't they already saved? People around the world are growing tired of this predestined doctrine as it creates two class of people. The haves and have nots. Which is just another way to keep the rich and powerful, rich and powerful and those with little with little.
Yikes! No. Rant much? :)

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

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2timothy316 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:01 pmOn top of that it leads to haughtiness for people that think they are elected. Looking down on and condemning others from their false belief they have been chosen for heaven while another doesn't stand a chance.
What's haughty about simply believing what is true? Do you want Tiger Woods to simply be blind to the fact that he's a great athlete?

Look, the moral elite are going to Heaven and I am not. If I can see that, why punish someone on the good side of the fence for seeing that?

Some people are gifted, and gifted is exactly the right word, because I didn't earn my high IQ, Tiger Woods didn't earn his innate athletic ability, and George Soros didn't earn his innate goodness.

You can practice and get better but only at what you have to start with.

And people who actually are morally superior are going to act like it. They don't do good deeds and just not see them. If they couldn't see that the deeds they did were good, they would stop doing those deeds. Just as, if you know you suck at golf, if you can't get the ball in the hole from half a meter, you are going to stop trying sooner or later.

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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

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Post by 2timothy316 »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:43 am
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Mar 29, 2021 1:01 pmOn top of that it leads to haughtiness for people that think they are elected. Looking down on and condemning others from their false belief they have been chosen for heaven while another doesn't stand a chance.
What's haughty about simply believing what is true? Do you want Tiger Woods to simply be blind to the fact that he's a great athlete?
Yet he is not anymore is he. Their problem is that now that he isn't due to his injuries he still think he was. That is not truth. Tiger Woods is a great example of being something but having that something lost. These that think they are elect don't think they can have lose their elect status. The haughtiness is comes from judging others as inferior to themselves. James 1:6 says that God opposes the haughty I will be giving no punishment, I can only warn.
Look, the moral elite are going to Heaven and I am not. If I can see that, why punish someone on the good side of the fence for seeing that?
A person can't judge themselves or others where they will spend eternity. Sadly this doctrine has convinced many that they are in a hopeless state. Just by existing Bible doesn't support the predestination doctrine. Because if we are all predestined then there is no reason for a book that is supposed to be for "teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight." (2 Tim 3:16) Why would a predestined person need teaching or reproving? They wouldn't need these things.
Some people are gifted, and gifted is exactly the right word, because I didn't earn my high IQ, Tiger Woods didn't earn his innate athletic ability, and George Soros didn't earn his innate goodness.
You can practice and get better but only at what you have to start with.
So a person with Down's syndrome and severe mental handicap or some other genetic mental disorder is just screwed? Wow! This makes this false doctrine worse and worse sounding!
And people who actually are morally superior are going to act like it. They don't do good deeds and just not see them. If they couldn't see that the deeds they did were good, they would stop doing those deeds. Just as, if you know you suck at golf, if you can't get the ball in the hole from half a meter, you are going to stop trying sooner or later.
I know many that suck at golf. They don't play because they're good, the play because they like the game. Perhaps people should stop doing good deeds because it makes them morally superior and do good deeds because they like to do good deeds.

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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

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Post by 2timothy316 »

PinSeeker wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:18 am And it should cause them to react with total compassion toward all other people, especially unbelievers.
Why show them compassion before your god burns them forever in fire that you have said they are condemned and you've told they can't avoid?

Do you seriously think there is not a person out there that thinks highly of themselves over others because they consider themselves 'elect'? Have you never heard of Westboro Baptist Church or “Radical traditionalist” Catholics? Such groups call themselves 'elect' and to have higher moral standards. Such groups are a product of this vicious false doctrine.

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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

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Post by PinSeeker »

2timothy316 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:29 am
PinSeeker wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:18 am And it should cause them to react with total compassion toward all other people, especially unbelievers.
Why show them compassion before your god burns them forever in fire that you have said they are condemned and you've told they can't avoid?
Because for all we know, unbelievers may be Elect, but have not been called yet, 2timothy316. Only God knows who His Elect are, and we do not; only God sees and knows hearts (because He made them), and we do not. So we, as Christians, should treat everyone the same, as even better than ourselves, and at the very least want God's grace for all others, want for others what we ourselves have undeservedly received. This is what humility looks like.

2timothy316 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:29 am Do you seriously think there is not a person out there that thinks highly of themselves over others because they consider themselves 'elect'?
If they understand what it means to be one of God's Elect, and how undeserving of His saving grace they are, and just as morally depraved as the worst sinners out there, then no, they do not think of themselves more highly than anyone else... even lower, as a matter of fact. They would say, "Except for the grace of God, there go I." In the manner of Paul himself, who called himself the chief of sinners, saying that there is nothing good that dwells in his flesh, confessing that the very things he knew he should do he didn't do, and the very things he knew he should not do he did do, then finally calling himself wretched and asking for deliverance from his sin.

In answer to your question, if one thinks more highly of himself or herself because he or she considers himself or herself elect of God, then that would actually call into serious question whether they are elect of God at all. One of the marks of the Christian -- elect of God -- is humility, and grace and compassion closely follow. If none of that is present, then that would be outward evidence that God is not at work in them, that they are not Christian, and that, while it is possible for God to change their heart at some point in the future, He has not done so (at least not yet).

2timothy316 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:29 am Have you never heard of Westboro Baptist Church? Such groups are a product of this vicious false doctrine.
Yes, I know very well who those folks are. I think of them as you do, I'm sure. They are... misled. :) Aside from that, though, Baptists, for the most part, do not believe in God's sovereignty regarding salvation; they actually probably believe very closely along the lines you and myth-one apparently do regarding this particular thing.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

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Post by 2timothy316 »

PinSeeker wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:04 am
2timothy316 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:29 am Have you never heard of Westboro Baptist Church? Such groups are a product of this vicious false doctrine.
Yes, I know very well who those folks are. I think of them as you do, I'm sure. They are... misled. :)

Grace and peace to you.
Yes, mislead by the belief they are 'elect'. They think they are better than others, as I said the predestination doctrine leads many people to being haughty. One the larger groups is “Radical traditionalist” Catholics. Islam too has a large population that thinks they are predestined for heaven and all others are followers of Satan.

The doctrine is evil as well as false leading who knows how many millions to think they are better than others, even to the point that they think and act toward those they consider not elect are worthless.

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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

Post #69

Post by myth-one.com »

PinSeeker wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:04 am Only God knows who His Elect are, and we do not; only God sees and knows hearts (because He made them), and we do not.
We do not know the elect by individual names, but we do know them in the general case. The elect are those who believeth in Jesus as their Savior. Or as John 3:16 puts it, "whosoever believeth."

First Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 tell us that God is not willing that any should perish, but desires that all should be saved:

1 Timothy 2:

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


If God is not willing that any should perish, His "elect" would have to be all inclusive!

Thus "whosoever believeth."

But everyone will not necessarily be saved.

God will not force everlasting life on anyone.

Everlasting life or death is each person's individual choice:

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19)

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Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?

Post #70

Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:44 pm The elect are those who believeth in Jesus as their Savior. Or as John 3:16 puts it, "whosoever believeth."
Yes and no. Anyone can say anything, myth-one, but what they say -- even if they believe what the say, because they may be fooling themselves, which the Bible says is a possibility (the heart is deceitful above all things, who can understand it? -- Jeremiah 17:9) -- may not really be the case.

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:44 pm First Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 tell us that God is not willing that any should perish, but desires that all should be saved... For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth...
Right, but as I have said, one's desires and one's will are not the same thing. They can certainly be in accord, but they may not be. Even for God.

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:44 pm If God is not willing that any should perish, His "elect" would have to be all inclusive! Thus "whosoever believeth."
Ah, but He is desirous that none should perish. His will is a different thing. "Whosoever believeth" is absolutely true, but but the "whosoever" is not initially dependent upon... whosoever, but God, Who, by His Holy Spirit, changes hearts and calls according to His will. And like I said, if God does change the heart and call, whosoever will choose wisely, repent and believe, of his own free will and accord.

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:44 pm But everyone will not necessarily be saved.
Agreed.

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:44 pm God will not force everlasting life on anyone.
He doesn't "force" anything. But everything that happens is according to His perfect will. God is God. He is our sovereign King.

Grace and peace to you.

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