Matthew 7:14 gives Jesus stating in The Sermon on the Mount to the Jews, "Narrow is the way that leads unto life, and few there be that find it."
Calvinism specifies all who enter the Kingdom of Heaven are individually elected and predestined to be the exclusive recipients of Christ's limited atonement for sin. Calvin and his adherents today therefore are saying, because of Christ's statement cited above, God created the vast majority of people with His intention to send them to Hell for eternity. They claim this is verified by declaring Salvation of "All" actually means "All who are elected by God."
Are Calvinists thereby adding their thoughts to the very Word of God by inserting that phrase, "who are elected by God?" If I say I am "submitting" this question, it means I am allowed to speak it by declaring it seems to be a good idea.
Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Moderator: Moderators
- PinSeeker
- Banned
- Posts: 2920
- Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:07 pm
- Has thanked: 53 times
- Been thanked: 74 times
Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #41Yes, 'would have' can also be rendered in English 'wants' or 'desires.' Sure. But again, that He "would have all men to be saved" is to say that His desire is that all would be saved. It does not speak to His actual will. See above.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:58 pm BTW here are some other translations that don't have the word 'would'.
https://biblehub.com/1_timothy/2-4.htm
Again, He could, if He so chose, bend His will to meet His desire, but to do that, He would be compromising His justice, which of course He can not and will not do. As we read in Deuteronomy, "The Rock, His work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is He." (32:4)2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:58 pm If He is control of who has faith and who doesn't why wouldn't He give all of mankind faith and the knowledge of the truth?
Well sort of, in a weird way, I guess. But He only gives people saving faith if it's His will to do so. He has mercy on whom He chooses, and compassion on whom He chooses2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:58 pm That You're saying the only person stopping a person from gaining faith is God.
LOL! God glorifies Himself. That is His chief end. And He never fails to do so. It may not be other people's (creatures) idea of glory, but that matters not.
Grace and peace to you.
- PinSeeker
- Banned
- Posts: 2920
- Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:07 pm
- Has thanked: 53 times
- Been thanked: 74 times
Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #42Your opinion is duly noted.myth-one.com wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:08 pmThat conclusion is absolutely false!PinSeeker wrote: ↑Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:54 pm We know that God is totally sovereign over His creation. As such, with regard to His salvation, though He certainly desires that all would be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, God chooses whom He chooses, has mercy on whom He will have mercy, compassion on whom He will have compassion (Romans 9)
So God's granting of salvation to His Elect and them only is His prerogative as Creator; . . .
LOL! Thank you.myth-one.com wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:08 pm If you want to call believers the "elect" I guess that's okay.
Ohhhh... yes He did, just as Jesus chose His disciples
Well sure they (we)did. But, like Paul says, "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
Grace and peace.
-
- Under Probation
- Posts: 4164
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
- Has thanked: 175 times
- Been thanked: 457 times
Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #43Yes His ways are perfect and the predestination doctrine isn't perfect. That is why it's false.PinSeeker wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:13 pmYes, 'would have' can also be rendered in English 'wants' or 'desires.' Sure. But again, that He "would have all men to be saved" is to say that His desire is that all would be saved. It does not speak to His actual will. See above.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:58 pm BTW here are some other translations that don't have the word 'would'.
https://biblehub.com/1_timothy/2-4.htm
Again, He could, if He so chose, bend His will to meet His desire, but to do that, He would be compromising His justice, which of course He can not and will not do. As we read in Deuteronomy, "The Rock, His work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is He." (32:4)2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:58 pm If He is control of who has faith and who doesn't why wouldn't He give all of mankind faith and the knowledge of the truth?
This demands a binary answer. Not a 'sort of'. Why doesn't your god give everyone mercy?Well sort of, in a weird way, I guess. But He only gives people saving faith if it's His will to do so. He has mercy on whom He chooses, and compassion on whom He chooses2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:58 pm That You're saying the only person stopping a person from gaining faith is God.
Him being his own enemy against his own will doesn't glorify your god. It makes him imperfect and heartless perhaps more like a schizophrenic, which is why so many look at this predestining god in disgust. I am grateful he is not real.LOL! God glorifies Himself. That is His chief end. And He never fails to do so. It may not be other people's (creatures) idea of glory, but that matters not.
Grace and peace to you.
- otseng
- Savant
- Posts: 20503
- Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
- Location: Atlanta, GA
- Has thanked: 197 times
- Been thanked: 336 times
- Contact:
Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #44Moderator Comment2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:32 pm I wonder if doctrines that lead people away from the Bible make people like pinseeker happy?
Please debate without commenting about others.
Please review the Rules.
______________
Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
- Miles
- Savant
- Posts: 5179
- Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
- Has thanked: 434 times
- Been thanked: 1614 times
Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #45I know what you asserted, and in doing so you've put it up for discussion. Believe it or not, you don't have the privilege of deciding what may and may not be talked about.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:25 pm [Replying to Miles in post #37]
I do not have to prove that my scriptures are true or not. You want another forum for those types of discussions. If you want to debate then the Bible is your only authoritative tool here. It is not on trial. You know this about this forum.
Fine, then don't debate it. It's that simple. However, I can understand that if you can't defend a particular scripture, or your interpretation of it, why you would seek to sidestep it. Just don't try to pass off your desires as some kind forum directive.If you want to discuss scripture that's fine. But for you to call it untrue is not a debatable subject for me and it's not really the purpose of this forum.
Not interested.Debating the doctrine a scripture creates is up for debate. If you want to weigh in on 1 Tim 2:3,4 and how it either supports or defeats the doctrine of predestination I'd be happy to reply.
Good thing you used "if" to introduced your conditional clause in an attempt to sidetrack the issue, because I have no desire to call the Bible untrue.But if you're just going to call the Bible untrue, I do not want anything to do with that discussion.
Quite right."Responses to topics with "but first you have to prove that the Bible is true" is not allowed here."
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3168
Q: Are you under the impression I said anything close to "but first you have to prove that the Bible is true"? If so, please go back and read everything I've said and point it out. If you can't, and I know you can't, then I suggest you stop bringing up red herrings.
.
-
- Savant
- Posts: 7079
- Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
- Has thanked: 31 times
- Been thanked: 85 times
- Contact:
Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #46PinSeeker wrote:Ohhhh... yes He did, just as Jesus chose His disciples
Moses was under the Old Testament Covenant.PinSeeker wrote:Well sure they (we)did. But, like Paul says, "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
Under the New Testament Covenant, man must believe in Jesus as his Savior to gain everlasting life:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
So however everlasting life was distributed to or rejected from mankind in the past, the only path to everlasting life presently is to believe in Jesus as one's Savior.
====================================
But you are claiming that God can add or subtract (or elect) whomever He choses from the list of those who believe in Him and are presently listed as inheritors of everlasting life.
If so, then God is not honoring His words in the New Testament.
Isn't that a problem?
That is, if God adds or subtracts from the group of "whosoever believeth" in John 3:16, then who can ever be believed again -- if we can't even believe God?
-
- Under Probation
- Posts: 4164
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
- Has thanked: 175 times
- Been thanked: 457 times
Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #47Post 33Miles wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:53 pm
Q: Are you under the impression I said anything close to "but first you have to prove that the Bible is true"? If so, please go back and read everything I've said and point it out. If you can't, and I know you can't, then I suggest you stop bringing up red herrings.
.
-
- Under Probation
- Posts: 4164
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
- Has thanked: 175 times
- Been thanked: 457 times
Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #48Then I am at a loss as to why you reply to anything on this forum.
- Miles
- Savant
- Posts: 5179
- Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
- Has thanked: 434 times
- Been thanked: 1614 times
Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #49Which is fine. Never feel as if you have to know everything. To do so is asking for a whole lot of disappointment.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:06 pmThen I am at a loss as to why you reply to anything on this forum.
.
-
- Under Probation
- Posts: 4164
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
- Has thanked: 175 times
- Been thanked: 457 times
Re: Did God Create and Predestinate Most Humans For Hell?
Post #50Well I do agree, your replies are certainly disappointing.Miles wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:16 pmWhich is fine. Never feel as if you have to know everything. To do so is asking for a whole lot of disappointment.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:06 pmThen I am at a loss as to why you reply to anything on this forum.
.