Lying Spirits

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William
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Lying Spirits

Post #1

Post by William »

Tam [Self proclaimed Christian and "Slave of Christ"] had this to say about my compilation of data and how the data forms a picture of what probably happens in "The Afterlife"
tam wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:26 pm Peace to you,
William wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:36 pm Hells exist according to those who have experienced them and came back to tell the tale.
My Lord does not teach the 'system' that you describe, and so I cannot accept it. But even if I had not been taught anything on the matter from Him, you have provided no reason or evidence to accept the statement that you made. I certainly mean no offense, and I respect your right to your belief. But there are many other things that can be considered instead of accepting that they had a real experience of a hell in an afterlife of their own making.

There have been claims of people going to hell (or to heaven) that have been recanted as lies (lies told to sell books; get publicity; lies that were pressured upon them by others, etc.) That is a fact. People also dream (I see no reason why a person could not dream during a near-death experience). So they might simply be relaying their experience from a dream of their own making (or nightmare, as it were). And even if it were a vision, that does not mean that they understood the meaning; they may have inserted their own belief system onto the meaning of their dream or vision.
And here:
tam wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:18 am
Perhaps you can ask your lord to give you an experience of visiting a few of those aspects of afterlife [alternate realities] so that you have something in which to gauge by in order to ascertain the truth of the matter.


Nope. Not gonna do that. Forget it.


I will not ask Christ to show me some other claim or teaching... especially not when Christ has already taught me the truth on His Father's house, and on where we go when we die, and the resurrection (first and second). I will remain in my Lord's word, because I am HIS disciple. Doing as suggested above would be no different than me asking Christ - the TRUTH - to show me a lie, a deception. Not only can He not do that (He is not a deceiver - the deceiver would be the Adversary, the father of lies)... asking to be shown a deception could leave a person vulnerable to being deceived by a lying spirit.

So what does the bible say about these so-called "Lying Spirits" [Search "Lying Spirits Bible"] Results:


"And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee."
1 Kings 22:20-23, KJV

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
1 John 4:1, KJV

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
Isaiah 5:20, KJV

"I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not."
Isaiah 66:4, KJV

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."
2 Corinthians 11:13-15, KJV

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"
2 Thessalonians 2:8-9, KJV

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
John 8:44, KJV

"Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices."
2 Corinthians 2:11, KJV

"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"
Ephesians 2:2, KJV

"Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another."
Ephesians 4:25, KJV
Tam argues that 'because it is not explained in the bible' the way I think the "afterlife" works, that this implies that I am therefore either influenced by a Lying Spirit or I am a Lying Spirit myself deceived and a deceiver.

I think that when Christians encounter anything which is contrary to the way Christendom has taught them to think, and they [differently] interpret the bible [as the different branches of Christendom do], then this is more like the type of [behavioral] evidence you would expect to encounter in relation to Lying Spirits because lies are often the underlying reason for confusion.

So, is Christendom [the tree] and Christian Denominations [the branches] lying to us about what happens in the afterlife?
Are Christians [is Christendom] concealing the truth from us [lying] by claiming that they follow the truth and everything else is therefore lies?

Are all lies derived from evil?

and.

If one tells part of the truth but conceals/hides all of the truth about any particular thing, is this lying?

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Re: Lying Spirits

Post #2

Post by Eloi »

The following biblical passage clearly explains the religious phenomenon to which this topic refers:

2 Thess. 2:6 And so now YOU know the thing that acts as a restraint, with a view to his being revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

It is not God who send any "lying spirit".

I will try to explain in my own words how I understand it from the things the Bible says about it :

There are spiritual beings willing to assume the functions for which they are designated in advance; spirits that are in charge of taking action according to certain causes. When a person does not have the approval of God it is because he is doing something that God does not approve, and a spirit can correctly take charge of bringing on that person the consequences that result from his wrongdoing. God allows it; it is about divine justice.

It would be better to seek God's truth and justice in order to have His favor.

Ps. 111:10 The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of wisdom. (...)

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Re: Lying Spirits

Post #3

Post by William »

Eloi wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:49 am The following biblical passage clearly explains the religious phenomenon to which this topic refers:

2 Thess. 2:6 And so now YOU know the thing that acts as a restraint, with a view to his being revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

It is not God who send any "lying spirit".

I will try to explain in my own words how I understand it from the things the Bible says about it :

There are spiritual beings willing to assume the functions for which they are designated in advance; spirits that are in charge of taking action according to certain causes. When a person does not have the approval of God it is because he is doing something that God does not approve, and a spirit can correctly take charge of bringing on that person the consequences that result from his wrongdoing. God allows it; it is about divine justice.

It would be better to seek God's truth and justice in order to have His favor.

Ps. 111:10 The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of wisdom. (...)
If one tells part of the truth but conceals/hides all of the truth about any particular thing, is this lying?

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Re: Lying Spirits

Post #4

Post by Difflugia »

Eloi wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:49 amIt is not God who send any "lying spirit".
The Bible disagrees with you.

1 Kings 22:19-23:
Micaiah said, “Therefore hear Yahweh’s word. I saw Yahweh sitting on his throne, and all the army of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. Yahweh said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ One said one thing, and another said another.

A spirit came out and stood before Yahweh, and said, ‘I will entice him.’

Yahweh said to him, ‘How?’

He said, ‘I will go out and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’

He said, ‘You will entice him, and will also prevail. Go out and do so.’ Now therefore, behold, Yahweh has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and Yahweh has spoken evil concerning you.”

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Re: Lying Spirits

Post #5

Post by Eloi »

William wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:00 am If one tells part of the truth but conceals/hides all of the truth about any particular thing, is this lying?
Why are you asking me?
What does your own conscience tell you?

Rom. 2:14 For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused.

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Re: Lying Spirits

Post #6

Post by Eloi »

Difflugia wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:03 am
Eloi wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:49 amIt is not God who send any "lying spirit".
The Bible disagrees with you.

1 Kings 22:19-23:
Micaiah said, “Therefore hear Yahweh’s word. I saw Yahweh sitting on his throne, and all the army of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. Yahweh said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ One said one thing, and another said another.

A spirit came out and stood before Yahweh, and said, ‘I will entice him.’

Yahweh said to him, ‘How?’

He said, ‘I will go out and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’

He said, ‘You will entice him, and will also prevail. Go out and do so.’ Now therefore, behold, Yahweh has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and Yahweh has spoken evil concerning you.”
Then you need to read AGAIN what you just quoted from the Bible and from me ... cause what I see there is exactly what I said before.

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Re: Lying Spirits

Post #7

Post by Difflugia »

Eloi wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:16 amThen you need to read AGAIN what you just quoted from the Bible and from me ... cause what I see there is exactly what I said before.
I don't think I'm the one that needs to do the re-reading.

You:
It is not God who send any "lying spirit".
The Bible:
...Yahweh has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets...
I get that you think there's a difference between God passively allowing something and actively doing it, but that doesn't change anything. According to Micaiah, God actively sent the lying spirit.

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Re: Lying Spirits

Post #8

Post by William »

Eloi wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:14 am
William wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:00 am If one tells part of the truth but conceals/hides all of the truth about any particular thing, is this lying?

Why are you asking me?
It was a question asked in OP. What is your answer?
What does your own conscience tell you?
Is the answer simply a matter of personal taste?
Rom. 2:14 For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused.
Why I ask is because I am interested in what you think and why you think it.

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Re: Lying Spirits

Post #9

Post by Eloi »

Difflugia wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:56 am I get that you think there's a difference between God passively allowing something and actively doing it, but that doesn't change anything. According to Micaiah, God actively sent the lying spirit.
I see you believe you are the one who judges that. O:)

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Re: Lying Spirits

Post #10

Post by William »

Eloi wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:15 pm
Difflugia wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:56 am I get that you think there's a difference between God passively allowing something and actively doing it, but that doesn't change anything. According to Micaiah, God actively sent the lying spirit.
I see you believe you are the one who judges that. O:)
One can only follow the storyline as the storyline presents. In that, it is best to at least 'stick close to the bone' while attempting to understand what the authors who have had their words added to book, are telling us in the words that they used.

In that, the author of this particular story has made it clear that the god in the story did agree with the spirit that telling lies was a good option to take under the circumstances.

In that, we are not here to judge whether the god in the story was acting 'with evil intent' so can assertain that a god can lie if the intent is 'good'.

If we then take another story written by another author in the book, which advices we "be perfect even as The Father is perfect" and the author has explained that this "Father" is spoken of by "Jesus" who is spoken of as "Those whom Christians follow/obey/etc" is "God" then we can say from that, that it is okay to lie, IF our intent is "good".

No shame in that...

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