Lying Spirits

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William
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Lying Spirits

Post #1

Post by William »

Tam [Self proclaimed Christian and "Slave of Christ"] had this to say about my compilation of data and how the data forms a picture of what probably happens in "The Afterlife"
tam wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:26 pm Peace to you,
William wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:36 pm Hells exist according to those who have experienced them and came back to tell the tale.
My Lord does not teach the 'system' that you describe, and so I cannot accept it. But even if I had not been taught anything on the matter from Him, you have provided no reason or evidence to accept the statement that you made. I certainly mean no offense, and I respect your right to your belief. But there are many other things that can be considered instead of accepting that they had a real experience of a hell in an afterlife of their own making.

There have been claims of people going to hell (or to heaven) that have been recanted as lies (lies told to sell books; get publicity; lies that were pressured upon them by others, etc.) That is a fact. People also dream (I see no reason why a person could not dream during a near-death experience). So they might simply be relaying their experience from a dream of their own making (or nightmare, as it were). And even if it were a vision, that does not mean that they understood the meaning; they may have inserted their own belief system onto the meaning of their dream or vision.
And here:
tam wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:18 am
Perhaps you can ask your lord to give you an experience of visiting a few of those aspects of afterlife [alternate realities] so that you have something in which to gauge by in order to ascertain the truth of the matter.


Nope. Not gonna do that. Forget it.


I will not ask Christ to show me some other claim or teaching... especially not when Christ has already taught me the truth on His Father's house, and on where we go when we die, and the resurrection (first and second). I will remain in my Lord's word, because I am HIS disciple. Doing as suggested above would be no different than me asking Christ - the TRUTH - to show me a lie, a deception. Not only can He not do that (He is not a deceiver - the deceiver would be the Adversary, the father of lies)... asking to be shown a deception could leave a person vulnerable to being deceived by a lying spirit.

So what does the bible say about these so-called "Lying Spirits" [Search "Lying Spirits Bible"] Results:


"And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee."
1 Kings 22:20-23, KJV

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
1 John 4:1, KJV

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
Isaiah 5:20, KJV

"I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not."
Isaiah 66:4, KJV

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."
2 Corinthians 11:13-15, KJV

"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"
2 Thessalonians 2:8-9, KJV

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
John 8:44, KJV

"Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices."
2 Corinthians 2:11, KJV

"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"
Ephesians 2:2, KJV

"Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another."
Ephesians 4:25, KJV
Tam argues that 'because it is not explained in the bible' the way I think the "afterlife" works, that this implies that I am therefore either influenced by a Lying Spirit or I am a Lying Spirit myself deceived and a deceiver.

I think that when Christians encounter anything which is contrary to the way Christendom has taught them to think, and they [differently] interpret the bible [as the different branches of Christendom do], then this is more like the type of [behavioral] evidence you would expect to encounter in relation to Lying Spirits because lies are often the underlying reason for confusion.

So, is Christendom [the tree] and Christian Denominations [the branches] lying to us about what happens in the afterlife?
Are Christians [is Christendom] concealing the truth from us [lying] by claiming that they follow the truth and everything else is therefore lies?

Are all lies derived from evil?

and.

If one tells part of the truth but conceals/hides all of the truth about any particular thing, is this lying?

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Re: Lying Spirits

Post #21

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Difflugia wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:03 am
Eloi wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:49 amIt is not God who send any "lying spirit".
The Bible disagrees with you.

1 Kings 22:19-23:
Micaiah said, “Therefore hear Yahweh’s word. I saw Yahweh sitting on his throne, and all the army of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. Yahweh said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ One said one thing, and another said another.

A spirit came out and stood before Yahweh, and said, ‘I will entice him.’

Yahweh said to him, ‘How?’

He said, ‘I will go out and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’

He said, ‘You will entice him, and will also prevail. Go out and do so.’ Now therefore, behold, Yahweh has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and Yahweh has spoken evil concerning you.”

At no point does the account say the spirit actually lied. It is called "a lying spirit ", and he said he would behave as "a lying spirit "
the million dollar question is what does a "lying spirit" do? Does it speak lies or does it manipulate people to believe a lie?
The answer came from the mouth of the angel himself who said : ‘I will entice him’ (evidently through the words of the false prophets). Did he lie to the Prophets. The text didn't say he did. So what was the spirits mission? To manipulate events to ensure Gods will be done. Did he actually lie himself? Does it say "So the spirit went forth and lied (verb) to the king/Prophets"? The text didn't say he did.


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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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William
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Re: Lying Spirits

Post #22

Post by William »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 12:18 am
Difflugia wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:03 am
Eloi wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:49 amIt is not God who send any "lying spirit".
The Bible disagrees with you.

1 Kings 22:19-23:
Micaiah said, “Therefore hear Yahweh’s word. I saw Yahweh sitting on his throne, and all the army of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. Yahweh said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ One said one thing, and another said another.

A spirit came out and stood before Yahweh, and said, ‘I will entice him.’

Yahweh said to him, ‘How?’

He said, ‘I will go out and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’

He said, ‘You will entice him, and will also prevail. Go out and do so.’ Now therefore, behold, Yahweh has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and Yahweh has spoken evil concerning you.”
At no point does the account say the spirit actually lied. It is called "a lying spirit ", and he said he would behave as "a lying spirit "
So yes - the account implies the spirit would have lied because it was called a Lying Spirit and volunteered to behave as a Lying Spirit.

the million dollar question is what does a "lying spirit" do? Does it speak lies or does it manipulate people to believe a lie?
The answer came from the mouth of the angel himself who said : ‘I will entice him’ (evidently through the words of the false prophets).


What "Angel"? Since when are "spirits" "angels"?
Did he lie to the Prophets. The text didn't say he did.
The text in the story of Adam and Eve also does not say that Adam sinned first, but it is even more than implied that Adam did indeed sin first.
If stories are not full enough to make something plain, but only written to imply, how is that therefore something which then has to be 'interpreted'?

Stories which leave themselves open to interpretation are - in the case of the Bible - stories designed to increase the mystery around the main character subject and in doing so, became the cause of confusion, interpretation and eventual schism. Do we look for "God" in disunity? Is that where The Father is found?
So what was the spirits mission? To manipulate events to ensure Gods will be done.
Which reminds me of the OP question "If one tells part of the truth but conceals/hides all of the truth about any particular thing, is this lying?"
Did he actually lie himself? Does it say "So the spirit went forth and lied (verb) to the king/Prophets"? The text didn't say he did.
So what the text didn't say whether the Lying Spirit did actually lie. The text also doesn't say the Lying Spirit didn't actually lie, so in that, we can honestly [in truth] say that the questions are neutralized - cancel each other out - don't need to be asked.

Did the spirit actually lie to the kings prophets? Doesn't matter. What is worth focusing upon is that the god [God/G_D] gave the nod of approval in regard to the Lying Spirits suggestion, thus showing yet another Biblical incident where the god has used so-called "evil" entities - Like with Serpent in The Garden...in order that "Gods Will Be Done". The Garden is symbolic of "The Fathers Kingdom".

This, in relation to the OP question: "If one tells part of the truth but conceals/hides all of the truth about any particular thing, is this lying?" - if this is "lying" then the follow-up question has to be "Does this mean that some forms of lying are NOT "Evil"?

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