Rev. 19:10 Testimony of Jesus.

[Benson]

Here, "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" was spoken by an Angel to John after John had erroneously tried to worship the Angel. Oddly, John as the very close and Beloved Disciple of Christ, who wrote the largest part of Scripture by any of the Original Apostles, and who had Jesus now revealed to him, had difficulty misidentifying and mistakenly worshipping an angel, thinking the Angel was Divine.

If Apostle John with his first hand knowledge of Christ and with The Revelation had such difficulty identifying Divinity, how much more do Professional Theologians of today have difficulty knowing the Testimony of Jesus, which is The Gospel of Salvation, when they have no available Spirit of Prophecy to guide them? Paul stated in Ephesians 4:12-13 the Church will have Prophets, but Modern Professional Theologians deny the existence of modern Prophets, or of any current Spirit of Prophecy. Their avoidance and denial of any modern Church Prophecy would explain their Theological disunity in Christendom, their dependence upon exegetic effort, and their error of Limited Atonement.

[Benson]

Benson wrote:

Paul stated in Ephesians 4:12-13 the Church will have Prophets, but Modern Professional Theologians deny the existence of modern Prophets, or of any current Spirit of Prophecy. Their avoidance and denial of any modern Church Prophecy would explain their Theological disunity in Christendom, their dependence upon exegetic effort, and their error of Limited Atonement.

Do you consider yourself to be a prophet? Are there other people in existence today who you consider to be prophets?

I am not a Prophet.

I have no direct evidence or understanding that any proclaimed prophets today are of the pedigree for being God's Prophets as shown in Scripture.

Why did you ask?

[Benson]

Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

Here, "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" was spoken by an Angel to John...

Nope. Specifically it was referred to as "The Angel" so likely John was referring to this angel as that which he had already experienced in this episode. [The Revelations Mythology by "John"]

...after John had erroneously tried to worship the Angel. Oddly, John as the very close and Beloved Disciple of Christ, who wrote the largest part of Scripture by any of the Original Apostles, and who had Jesus now revealed to him, had difficulty misidentifying and mistakenly worshipping an angel, thinking the Angel was Divine.

There was nothing odd about it. John was infatuated by all this mystical and magical and out of this world stuff he was involved with. That is why he loved The Lord so much - it was a type of "bromance between he and Jesus.
So either John mistook the angel as being Jesus, or it was because of Johns infatuation and religious upbringing which caused him to automatically "naturally enough" want to worship what was obviously far more superior to how he felt about himself...

We can see this in the actions of the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures who were worshiping an image of God upon a throne, as religion created this image and bestowed it upon The Creator...as a type of 'clothing' in which they could understand...dressed up in that way they could understand.

If Apostle John with his first hand knowledge of Christ and with The Revelation had such difficulty identifying Divinity, how much more do Professional Theologians of today have difficulty knowing the Testimony of Jesus, which is The Gospel of Salvation, when they have no available Spirit of Prophecy to guide them?

Imagine even John out there in the world prophesying! No doubt Jesus would have had to chastise John for bowing down to the divinity John recognized in Jesus. It happens. It is a human response to what humans call "divinity" which is really just knowing that one is in the presence of beings which are far more knowledgeable than you are...more powerful too...all that stuff...

Jesus [in spirit] is just a whisper away from any individual caring to notice...perhaps now and again these ones even share their stuff with the internet...

Paul stated in Ephesians 4:12-13 the Church will have Prophets, but Modern Professional Theologians deny the existence of modern Prophets, or of any current Spirit of Prophecy. Their avoidance and denial of any modern Church Prophecy would explain their Theological disunity in Christendom, their dependence upon exegetic effort, and their error of Limited Atonement.

Perhaps. But what of it? Christians do not even all agree as to what "Christendom" is, and some Christians don't even know what it means when they hear the word.
Why would we on the outside of that, sharing our secret stuff given to us by The Lord, stop to care about such declarations from such human authorities? Are these not represented in the vision as the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures?

Are we too, meant to bow down to an enthroned god and worship that image?

I thinks these one's you speak lowly off, they would advise us to do so....what would you advise?

I would advise one to take enough moments as one requires in order to think about it first...have a secret word with The Lord even...sus it out...

You imagine to have a "secret word from the Lord." Yet you here have spoken entirely within a human understanding.

No place in the text states John was taken with "infatuation, mysticism, magic." No place states that is why he loved The Lord. "We" do not see the 24 Elders worshipping Gof for the same mistaken reason John worshipped the Angel. No place in The Bible speaks of Jesus wanting anyone to merely "notice" Him. No place in Revelation states the 24 Elders have "authority."

Rather than making up false concepts from Scripture and trying to create false definitions of words, start living in the reality of The Written Word of God right in front of us. Your imagination, which you admitted thinking with, is not of God. Agreed?

[Benson]

Is Jesus God? Prophecy the answer.

Define "God" and then define "Jesus". Are the two definitions the same or different? Therein one would think that the answer lies...

There is no value or benefit in speaking of what "one would think." Did Jesus pay the penalty of your personal sins against God? Yes? No?

[Overcomer]

Benson wrote:

I am not a Prophet.

I have no direct evidence or understanding that any proclaimed prophets today are of the pedigree for being God's Prophets as shown in Scripture.

Why did you ask?

Because I thought your statement about the "Modern Professional Theologians'" denial of "Modern Church Prophecy" being a negative thing meant that you believe there are indeed modern prophets and the Church -- as you see it -- is wrong to dismiss them. That made me wonder who you saw in that role.

I asked if you thought of yourself as a modern prophet because I have encountered people who described themselves as such in my travels. That's why I asked.

[Overcomer]

William wrote:

I just read somewhere that Prophets are simply people who speak out. In that, if they speak out that they are specifically living on behalf of their idea of a god, then they are prophets to that subject.

Here's what being a prophet of God, as presented in the Bible, is all about:

"A prophet’s primary function in the Old Testament (OT) was to serve as God’s representative or ambassador by communicating God’s word to his people. True prophets never spoke on their own authority or shared their personal opinions, but rather delivered the message God himself gave them.

"Several texts make this explicit. God promised Moses, “Now go; I will help you speak and will teach you what to say” (Exod. 4:12). God assured Moses, “I will raise up for [my people] a prophet like you . . . and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him” (Deut. 18:18). The Lord said to Jeremiah, “I have put my words in your mouth” (Jer 1:9). God commissioned Ezekiel by saying, “You must speak my words to them” (Ezek. 2:7). And many of the OT prophetic books begin with the words, “The word of the LORD that came to . . .” (Hos. 1:2; Joel 1:1; Micah 1:1; Zeph. 1:1; cf. Jonah 1:1). Amos claimed, “This is what the LORD says” (Amos 1:3)."

That information comes from https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/arti ... -prophecy/

And, interestingly, both men AND women could be prophets.

William wrote:

This being the case, any person calling themselves a "Christian" and speaking out/writing down claims to do with their beliefs regarding "What is a Christian", are essentially Prophets.

Actually, it's a specific role for which a person is chosen by God to perform. The Holy Spirit can and does give the gift of prophecy to some as he sees fit (1 Cor. 12:7-11), but that is entirely different from being called to the role. See here:

https://www.gotquestions.org/prophets-today.html

William wrote:

The Church [as an institution of self proclaimed authority] tends to tell Christians that "Prophets are no longer required" because it is now the job of The Church to mediate between the individual and The Holy Spirit and Jesus and The Father.

Only Roman Catholics see the Church as a mediator between us and God. Protestants recognize that Jesus is the one and only mediator (1 Tim. 2:5: Heb. 9:15). We do not put the church on a pedestal as RCs do.

See here for more:

https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-mediator.html

Thus, The Church has taken on more of the role of mediator between "god and man" rather than stuck to the task Jesus assigned it...or...The Church as we have come to know it, is an imposter and usurper which has been tricking Christians since they started to stop being disciples and become Christians ... near the very beginning of all this cuffuffle .... coincidently around the same time as The Church started to take the reigns...

Do you happen to have a Roman Catholic background? I ask that because that is certainly what the RC Church has done and you are right to criticize it for doing so. In fact, I totally agree with you on the matter. You are bang on, William!

[William]

I would advise one to take enough moments as one requires in order to think about it first...have a secret word with The Lord even...sus it out...

You imagine to have a "secret word from the Lord." Yet you here have spoken entirely within a human understanding.

That is because I am writing specifically with human understanding in mind. To the readers, whom I assume are "human".

No place in the text states John was taken with "infatuation, mysticism, magic."

So what? If the text presents itself and is trying to get the attention of human understanding, then it is clearly saying that Jesus and John had a bromance. Nothing particularly upsetting about that as far as I can tell.

No place states that is why he loved The Lord.

Why would we expect there to be? How much text do we need before we 'get the picture'?

"We" do not see the 24 Elders worshipping Gof for the same mistaken reason John worshipped the Angel.

"We" are not defined so I cannot say who it is you are referring to therein. That said, I myself explained why it was the same type of worship John was applying. Perhaps revisit my post and read it for yourself.

"We" [defined as the "Faithful"] worship no image of God [or Gof or any other named being] who sit upon a throne. That is recognized [by Us] as an entire fabrication of "what God is" trickling through the filter of human understanding.

No place in The Bible speaks of Jesus wanting anyone to merely "notice" Him.

Nor was that implied. But falling down and worshiping Jesus is frowned upon by Jesus...because [among other reasons] it takes things a little too far. [see his conversation [recorded in "The Bible"] with Satan in the mountain tops, for more on this concept].

No place in Revelation states the 24 Elders have "authority."

Nor did I say they did. To clarify, the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures represent Religion created in and based upon human understanding. Nothing more.

Rather than making up false concepts from Scripture and trying to create false definitions of words, start living in the reality of The Written Word of God right in front of us.

You mean "the written word of human beings" [specifically the Bible] but "We" do not worship such things or call them "The Word of God" as the are too human to be identified in that fashion.

"Our" worship is simply to always be in The Truth. Anything else {like these human stories} are seen in that light, which is not as you accuse "Me" of doing "making up false concepts from Scripture and trying to create false definitions of words" - I am not impressed with Christians who imply that those they do not agree with must be under the influence of the "Lying Spirit" - and like to warn them off in case they are really [ignorantly] blaspheming the Holy...just so's "We" are clear...

Your imagination, which you admitted thinking with, is not of God. Agreed?

You would first have to define your idea of "God" before I can either agree or disagree. For "Our" part [how "We" see things] "We" are "In the [Holy] Spirit" and "I" agree with that...

[William]

Is Jesus God? Prophecy the answer.

Define "God" and then define "Jesus". Are the two definitions the same or different? Therein one would think that the answer lies...

There is no value or benefit in speaking of what "one would think." Did Jesus pay the penalty of your personal sins against God? Yes? No?

Define "God" and then define "Jesus". Are the two definitions the same or different? Therein one would think that the answer lies...

[Benson]

Search the Scriptures which speak of Jesus who said "I and the Father are one." He also said about Himself "Before Abraham I AM." The Jews who heard Him say this correctly understood Him to be saying He is God. "Emmanuel" means "God with us." Jesus forgave sins, and used healing to verify His Divine position and identity as God.

You have no personal interest in the facts about God and Jesus. You just want to create doubt and controversy.

[otseng]

You have no personal interest in the facts about God and Jesus. You just want to create doubt and controversy.

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[Benson]

I would advise one to take enough moments as one requires in order to think about it first...have a secret word with The Lord even...sus it out...

You imagine to have a "secret word from the Lord." Yet you here have spoken entirely within a human understanding.

That is because I am writing specifically with human understanding in mind. To the readers, whom I assume are "human".

No place in the text states John was taken with "infatuation, mysticism, magic."

So what? If the text presents itself and is trying to get the attention of human understanding, then it is clearly saying that Jesus and John had a bromance. Nothing particularly upsetting about that as far as I can tell.

No place states that is why he loved The Lord.

Why would we expect there to be? How much text do we need before we 'get the picture'?

"We" do not see the 24 Elders worshipping Gof for the same mistaken reason John worshipped the Angel.

"We" are not defined so I cannot say who it is you are referring to therein. That said, I myself explained why it was the same type of worship John was applying. Perhaps revisit my post and read it for yourself.

"We" [defined as the "Faithful"] worship no image of God [or Gof or any other named being] who sit upon a throne. That is recognized [by Us] as an entire fabrication of "what God is" trickling through the filter of human understanding.

No place in The Bible speaks of Jesus wanting anyone to merely "notice" Him.

Nor was that implied. But falling down and worshiping Jesus is frowned upon by Jesus...because [among other reasons] it takes things a little too far. [see his conversation [recorded in "The Bible"] with Satan in the mountain tops, for more on this concept].

No place in Revelation states the 24 Elders have "authority."

Nor did I say they did. To clarify, the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures represent Religion created in and based upon human understanding. Nothing more.

Rather than making up false concepts from Scripture and trying to create false definitions of words, start living in the reality of The Written Word of God right in front of us.

You mean "the written word of human beings" [specifically the Bible] but "We" do not worship such things or call them "The Word of God" as the are too human to be identified in that fashion.

"Our" worship is simply to always be in The Truth. Anything else {like these human stories} are seen in that light, which is not as you accuse "Me" of doing "making up false concepts from Scripture and trying to create false definitions of words" - I am not impressed with Christians who imply that those they do not agree with must be under the influence of the "Lying Spirit" - and like to warn them off in case they are really [ignorantly] blaspheming the Holy...just so's "We" are clear...

Your imagination, which you admitted thinking with, is not of God. Agreed?

You would first have to define your idea of "God" before I can either agree or disagree. For "Our" part [how "We" see things] "We" are "In the [Holy] Spirit" and "I" agree with that...

Whether or not one is upset is not a reliable test of Truth.

Thank you for bringing to this discussion how all sorts of pictures having no merit come to the minds of those who do not follow Christ, and do not possess The Holy Spirit.

It is not possible for any person to decide what the Truth is.