Today's Excellent Church.

[Benson]

Acts 2 gives the narrative of how the Body of Christ His Church was brought into being by the coming of The Holy Spirit, according to Joel ch. 2 as cited by Apostle Peter.

Today, there are no features within modern Christendom which are a continuation of either Acts ch. 2, Joel ch. 2, The Jerusalem Messianic Church, or the Pauline Gentile Church.

This post remains very short because there is no other information in Scripture to authenticate the state of today's so called "Church." If one thinks the Church does exist today according to the foundation of the Apostles with Christ as the Cornerstone, tell us where on Earth it exists in the hearts of Men before God. No place in Paul's teaching says the Church is some intangibly perceived group of minds set upon faith in Christ.

[tam]

Peace to you,

1. a name that identified individuals as belonging to the specific group

2. a leadership at a particular location that decided church policy and official church teachings

3. regular meetings for instruction and fellowship

4. Local members that knew each other by name

5. Disaster relief programs to help their membership during time of crisis

6. Centrally appointed men to ensure conformity to church teaching

7. Excluded those that refused to keep to church teaching and standards

8. A tradition that all members (both men and women) preach to strangers about their beliefs

9. Had missionaries that spread their message in far off territories

10. Would be miligned as being a "sect" and ill thought of by the majority of non members

Jesus said his people would be identifiable by the love and unity they display for each other and by their faithfully following his example. He commanded his followers to be public preachers and teachers of the kingdom and to stay loyal to the word of God.

I believe only Jehovah's Witnesses meet the above criteria and can as a body claim to be God's people today.

Your list describes the Catholic Church.

This is a good point, and the fact that multiple (and opposing) religions can claim this about themselves should be a hint to anyone reading that these items are not an accurate measure of the Church (the Body of Christ, the Bride).

(Though I don't think JW's even claim to be the Church, since the Church is the Bride, and the majority of JW's claim not to be the Bride. See the following for evidence of this statement: viewtopic.php?p=975277#p975277 ; see also viewtopic.php?p=1022994#p1022994 )

ps: I think I should have combined #2 and #6 and had a new point

- Stay loyal to the word of God as expressed in the teachings of Christ. Adopting pagan teaching such as the trinity, the immorality of the soul, eternal torture of the dead in hellfire ect is evidence that a religion has departed from the fundamental teaching of Christ and does not meet Gods standards.

Christ did not teach the trinity, that is correct. But He also does not teach that He is the archangel Michael. He also did not teach that some Christians are brothers of Christ and some Christians are not; or that some Christians are the Bride and some Christians are not; or that some Christians receive holy spirit and some Christians do not; or that some Christians are part of the Church (the Body of Christ) and some Christians are not. He also did not teach that some Christians are to obey all His commands (including eating and drinking the bread and wine that mean His flesh and blood <- this was a command) and that some (or most) Christians are not permitted to do so. Christ said that anyone may eat His flesh and drink His blood, and that unless one does so, one has no life in them. The JW religion teaches the opposite. Christ also did not teach that there are two different hopes (an earthly hope or a heavenly hope) for two different classes of Christians (non-anointed or anointed).


So yes, one should indeed remain in Christ (the actual Word of God), obeying His commands, keeping His word and teachings. But the JW religion does not do this any more than the RCC does this - in fact NO religion does this. The following links highlight some of these things (the thread is 188 pages long, covering multiple topics, so I posted direct links to posts starting on page 64 and continuing, in case anyone is interested):

viewtopic.php?p=874619#p874619
viewtopic.php?p=874716#p874716
viewtopic.php?p=874794#p874794
viewtopic.php?p=874900#p874900
viewtopic.php?p=875041#p875041
viewtopic.php?p=875241#p875241
viewtopic.php?p=875327#p875327
viewtopic.php?p=875439#p875439
viewtopic.php?p=875780#p875780
viewtopic.php?p=875840#p875840
viewtopic.php?p=875966#p875966
viewtopic.php?p=876009#p876009


**


In response to my post #3 (which I cannot imagine anyone would disagree with), Benson said:

There is no need to reinvent things here by merely restating what is obvious.

My post might have been restating the obvious, but one only has to look at the posts, links, and claims above to realize that "the obvious" is indeed being missed. People are still seeking and joining religion (various sects, not just the two above), then believing/obeying what those religions (and their leaders) teach, even when those teachings and commands are in direct conflict with Christ.



Christ calls us to come to Him . To "stop touching the unclean thing and I will take you in." To "Come out of her, my people, so that you do not share in her sins..."


May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, as the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come!" May anyone who wishes and anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life."


Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[RightReason]

[Replying to tam in post #52]

So yes, one should indeed remain in Christ (the actual Word of God), obeying His commands, keeping His word and teachings. But the JW religion does not do this any more than the RCC does this - in fact NO religion does this.

And who gave us Sacred Scripture, which includes the Word of God? Hint: The Church.

And how can we obey His commands if we can’t even agree on what His commands are? Who has the authority to definitively declare His commands?

How can we keep His words and teachings, if we don’t know what those teachings are? Many a sincere Christian has read the Bible and come to different opinions on Christ’s teachings.

Did Christ not say to His Church, “He who hears you, hears me”? Does Scripture not refer to His Church as the pillar and foundation of truth? Did the first Church not take on a hierarchical structure? Does Scripture not tell us the first Christians took their concerns to the Church, who had the final say? The very first Christian recognized the authority of Christ's Church, why don't you? Sounds like a religion to me. In fact, sounds like One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

[tam]

Peace to you RR,

[Replying to RightReason in post #53]

Every single thing that you wrote in your post has been addressed between us, in the links of my previous post. I am not sure what more there is to say on the matter. I will just address the first statement in your post (though it was addressed on the other thread in the links):

And who gave us Sacred Scripture, which includes the Word of God? Hint: The Church.

I have never understood this claim of yours. The RCC did not give us scripture. Scripture - such as Moses, the Psalms, the Prophets - existed long before two thousand years ago. As for the books and letters of the NT, the RCC may have collected and/or chosen which letters to include in their 'canon', but those letters were not written by - and did not belong to - the RCC. The RCC did not own or write the scriptures that you are claiming that they 'gave' to us. The RCC would have had no right to prevent others from reading those letters if others wanted to read them.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[RightReason]

[Replying to tam in post #54]

I have never understood this claim of yours. The RCC did not give us scripture. Scripture - such as Moses, the Psalms, the Prophets - existed long before two thousand years ago. As for the books and letters of the NT, the RCC may have collected and/or chosen which letters to include in their 'canon', but those letters were not written by - and did not belong to - the RCC. The RCC did not own or write the scriptures that you are claiming that they 'gave' to us. The RCC would have had no right to prevent others from reading those letters if others wanted to read them.

Sacred Scripture consists of the OT and the NT. The Bible that we use today was given to us from the Church. It did not fall from the sky. It had to be decided and determined what made the cut. Christ’s Church had the authority to do this and DID this. All other Christian denominations accepted this. Later, some denominations changed, added to or deleted some of what Christ’s Church decided should make up the Bible. Not sure where/how they felt they had the authority to do so, but nevertheless they did. Luther added words to Sacred Scripture and threw out some of Sacred Scripture that he didn’t like and yet he was the Protestant hero of the Reformation. By whose authority did he do what he did. And how do people not have a problem with that?

Of course, the Catholic Church did not write OT writings. However, they did have the authority to claim what was authentic OT writings and what wasn’t. Even today, we have some Christian groups who do not accept all OT writings that the Church in her wisdom and authority says came from God. You do realize there were lots of ancient writings out there, right? It was the Holy Spirit who guided the Church to know exactly which writings were legit and which weren’t. And it was the Catholic Church who wrote the NT, because the first/early Church was in fact the authors of the NT.

So, I guess it is I who do not understand what you are attempting to say. Yes, the Catholic Church gave us the Bible as we know it. She was guided by the Holy Spirit, as promised by Christ Himself, to know exactly what should be included in the Bible and what shouldn’t. Thanks be to God!

And yes, it would appear we have had this conversation before. I encourage others to check out our previous conversations. You failed to make your case then too. I truly don't understand how you can continue your, "I only listen to Christ" slogan when Christ clearly told us to listen to His Church. At some point, you will have to recognize the hypocrisy (not to mention illogic) of your belief in denouncing religion. I keep pray'n for ya!

[tam]

[Replying to RightReason in post #55]

I encourage others to check out our previous conversations.

I encourage the same (for anyone who cares, that is).


Peace again to you, RR.

[tam]

Peace to you, and just to add something to the previous post,

[Replying to RightReason in post #55]

I truly don't understand how you can continue your, "I only listen to Christ"

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."

“If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.


"All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. 28Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.…"


Come to Me. Learn from Me. Listen to my voice. Keep my word. Remain in me.

It's all right there!

Even more, when I sought the truth (of God) and asked Him to lead me where He wanted me to be, God led me to His Son. God led me only to His Son (who is His Word and His Truth).

If we are His sheep (Christ's sheep) then we listen to His voice and we remain in Him. And if we are part of Him (Christ), part of His Body, His bride, then we ARE the Church - with Christ as our Head, Lord, Master, Teacher, Shepherd. He is the One who leads His sheep, His Bride, His Church.

when Christ clearly told us to listen to His Church.

Where does Christ say to His Church... "Listen to my Church"... ?

Does He not tell His Church to listen to Him? As the above verses show?




Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[RightReason]

[Replying to tam in post #57]

Hi Tam! Peace to you as well. The passages you cite show God is the way, the truth, and the life. This has never been questioned and is the summit of all that the Catholic Church teaches. Your passages show that Jesus is the head of His Church. Again, this is what the Catholic Church recognizes. In fact, only the Catholic Church can historically demonstrate Jesus is its founder. But none of your passages contradict or negate that Christ established a Church and expected her to be His authoritative voice on earth.


There exists an intimate bond between Christ and his Church. The Catechism explains it this way, "Not only is she(the Church) gathered around him, she is united in him, in his Body” (CCC 789). It then says that: “Believers who respond to God’s Word and become members of Christ’s body, become intimately united with him… In that Body the life of Christ is communicated to those who believe and who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to Christ” (790). And also: “He has joined her with himself in an everlasting covenant and never stops caring for her as for his own body” (796).


If you read the Catechism and the documents of the Second Vatican Council, it becomes glaringly clear that the Church is quite simply the continuation of Christ’s loving and healing presence here on earth; right now.


It is so easy to let the Church’s sheer size and post-sin woundedness make you forget that it exists primarily for this intimate and personal purpose. St. Joan of Arc said about Jesus Christ and the Church: “I simply know they’re one thing and we shouldn’t complicate the matter”. Absorbing this properly, then, should trigger a radically different reaction when we hear statements such as ‘listen to the Church’.


The way in which we should listen to the Church, therefore, is not in the sense of a dog listening to its owner’s command to 'sit', but in a truly free way. It is the obedience of one lover to another: a willing, positive response and openness, in the knowledge that the other has our best interests at heart.

It is the obedience of Christ himself, who said “If you keep my commandments you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.” So actually it goes far beyond just listening. You don’t just listen to the Church; it’s about responding to a life in Christ, living up to what we were made for in order to be truly satisfied. It's about falling in love.


https://www.faith.org.uk/article/novemb ... the-church


It might even help to understand the Church from this passage from Scripture:

“Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her” (Eph. 5:25)


God created marriage to be a metaphor of Christ’s relationship to the church.

Jesus loved His Church. That alone should be reason for us to as well.




Here are some explanations more eloquently explained than I could do. Perhaps these excerpts can help give you a better understanding on the significance and role of Christ’s Church. What I am posting shows the Scriptural evidence as well as historical evidence that Christ intended us to listen to His Church AND to do so is equivalent to listening to Him. The evidence is not only overwhelming, it is also the only thing that makes sense. And I hope you get that too . . .

The plain, simple truth is that Jesus Christ founded on earth directly and personally an organized religious society which he called his Church


The records of these and other Councils are facts of history which prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the Church of those days was regarded by all as a visible, organized society, a group of men, with the same objective, using the same means to attain it under the direction of an authority they all recognized. That it was a society bound together by authority is absolutely clear from all the records of the Church from those times.


All the evidence at our disposal–even though omitting, due to space, scriptural evidence–convinces us that Christ set up over nineteen hundred years ago a visible, organized society. Its objective was to make all men holy and save their souls. The means to that were belief in Christ, reception of the sacraments he instituted and obedience to the authority he established. The members were those who believed and were baptized. The authority was the apostles’ under the leadership of Peter, and their successors.

Not merely Christ’s followers

From the beginning Christ’s Church was a highly organized society. The organization of its earliest years was preserved and developed. Before the sixteenth century there is no reference anywhere to the notion that the Christian Church consists of all Christ’s followers, whether they are baptized or not, whether they believe in the sacraments or not, whether they accept orthodox teaching or not, whether they obey the successors of Peter and the apostles or not.

That Christ established a visible organized Church is a truth clearly set forth in the New Testament, completely vindicated by the Church’s history and absolutely reasonable. We cannot be true followers of Christ unless we accept his Church. It is through that Church that he lives on in the world today. It is through that Church that his ministry continues.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print ... st-founded



To submit means the relationship is to be conformed to Jesus and his Church. Furthermore, we can't settle for just a me-and-Jesus relationship and think we are done. It isn't Jesus OR the Catholic Church. Rather, it is a relationship with both, which means we need a community (the body of Christ) as well.


When we submit our lives to Jesus in faith, we also must submit to the Church he established. We can't merely make it up as we go, but must follow the commandments of God, which have been preserved via God's Church - the Catholic Church. This is why we must also have a personal relationship with the Catholic Church. Knowing what she teaches. Sharing in a communal life of a parish. Serving others. Receiving the Sacraments. Etc. Still, we must also remember that these things by themselves cannot save us, without the personal relationship with Jesus.

https://catholicmissionarydisciples.com ... lic-church


Christ himself is the source of the Church’s authority.

The New Testament shows that Christ deliberately created his Church to be the vehicle of his continuing mission in the world. He promised to remain present in his Church for all time, and he lovingly guides it through the presence of the Holy Spirit.

To ensure the success of this mission, Christ gave his Church the ability to teach, govern and sanctify with Christ’s own authority.

The source and guarantee of this Church authority is Christ’s continuing presence in his Church — “Lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age” (Mt 28:20).

The purpose of this authority is to give the Church the ability to teach without error about the essentials of salvation: “On this rock, I will build My Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it” (Mt 16:18).

The scope of this authority concerns the official teachings of the Church on matters of faith, morals, and worship (liturgy & sacraments).

The New Testament bears witness in numerous places to the fact of Church authority. It clearly shows that Christ gave his Apostles his own authority to continue his mission


And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” (Mt 28:18-20)


Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, even so I send you.” (Jn 20:21)


“He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.” (Mt 10:40)

And:
“He who hears you hears Me, and he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” (Lk 10:16)

Here, Christ explicitly identifies himself with the Apostles: this identification is so complete that accepting or rejecting the Apostles is the same as accepting or rejecting Christ. What’s more, both passages compare the union between Christ and his Apostles to that of the Son and the Father within the Holy Trinity.

“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock, I will build My Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.” (Mt 16:18-19)

This is a key passage for understanding the Catholic doctrine of Church authority: * Christ’s deliberate intent to establish a new Church (“I will build My Church”) * His choice of Peter as the foundation, or head, of this Church * Christ confers on Peter his own divine authority (“the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven”) for ruling the Church (“bind” and “loose”). This power to “bind and loose”, repeated also in Mt 18:18 to the Apostles as a whole, is understood as applying first to Peter and his successors (the Pope), and then to the rest of the Apostles and their successors (the other Bishops) in union with Peter.


The Acts of the Apostles (a New Testament book) provides abundant evidence of how Church authority was practiced during the Apostolic age (during the lives of the Apostles themselves, after the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ).

In Acts, we see repeated examples of the Apostles teaching, governing, and sanctifying (baptizing and confirming, as well as “breaking the bread”).

One of the most striking passages in Acts tells how the Apostles describe their decision about whether pagan converts should submit to the Jewish laws of circumcision. They say, “For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us” that those laws of the Old Covenant should not apply (Acts 15:28). This passage shows:

• The Apostles knew that they had the governing power necessary to decide this question (this is a huge point: they’re overriding the ritual law of the Old Covenant!); and

• They are conscious of the presence of the Holy Spirit who is guiding their decision

We believe that Christ desired the Church to have this authority so that we could be sure of essential matters of the Faith.

http://www.beginningcatholic.com/church-authority

[tam]

[Replying to tam in post #57]

Hi Tam! Peace to you as well.

Thank you, and again, peace to you!

The passages you cite show God is the way, the truth, and the life.

The passages cite that Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is the Way (to God), the Truth (of God).

Your passages show that Jesus is the head of His Church.

That the Christ is the Head of the Church, yes.

But none of your passages contradict or negate that Christ established a Church and expected her to be His authoritative voice on earth.

None of the passages I cited were meant to negate the truth that Christ has a Church. The passages I cited were in response to you questioning why I listen to Christ (and not to a religion, or to men, or to 'religious leaders', or even to a book).

But Christ has His own voice, which His sheep are to listen to. As He has said.

**

As to your articles, I do not see how any of them negate what I shared, or how they even respond to the questions I asked.

Where does Christ say to His Church... "Listen to my Church"... ?

Does He not tell His Church to listen to Him? As the above verses show?

When we submit our lives to Jesus in faith, we also must submit to the Church he established.

See now, this seems to be contradicting the quote from Paul (from one of the articles) about how wives are to submit to their husbands (comparing the wife to the Church, and Christ to the Husband, so that the Church is to submit to Christ).

We - (who are) the Church - submit to Christ.

(We do not make anyone submit to us, we are to bear witness to Christ, to point to Him, to serve Him and anyone who seeks/belongs to Him.)

We can't merely make it up as we go, but must follow the commandments of God,

One of which is,

"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[RightReason]

[Replying to tam in post #57]

The passages you cite show God is the way, the truth, and the life.

The passages cite that Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is the Way (to God), the Truth (of God).

Do you not believe Christ is God? The divinity of Christ and belief in the Trinity is the basic tenet of Christianity.

Your passages show that Jesus is the head of His Church.


That the Christ is the Head of the Church, yes.

Is there a difference between Jesus and Christ? Please fill me in.

But none of your passages contradict or negate that Christ established a Church and expected her to be His authoritative voice on earth.

None of the passages I cited were meant to negate the truth that Christ has a Church. The passages I cited were in response to you questioning why I listen to Christ (and not to a religion, or to men, or to 'religious leaders', or even to a book).

But what you posted is not an answer to why you listen to Christ or a demonstration of it. What it is I couldn’t understand and my original question is how can a person claim to listen to Christ and then not go on to listen to His Church, since the evidence from both Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition are more than clear that He told us to. Any Christian can claim he/she listens to Christ, but then if they don’t heed what He tells us, then they really aren’t. I assume you would agree with that.

But Christ has His own voice, which His sheep are to listen to. As He has said.

Yes, and you skip the part of Scripture where Jesus tells Peter, “Feed my sheep”. I have no idea how one can deny this is a transfer of power/authority. He gave Peter the keys to the kingdom. What on earth do you think all that means? Clearly, He was giving Peter authority to speak for Him.

And as an aside, I find it ironic that you quote me Bible passages while simultaneously claiming you give no authority to the book. What you really mean, is you listen to the Bible when it suits you and cite the passages you like or that confirm your pre existing theology, but dismiss it and want to say it holds no authority when passages that contradict your view.

**

As to your articles, I do not see how any of them negate what I shared, or how they even respond to the questions I asked.

Then you didn’t actually read them. All of them showed all the evidence that Christ established His Church and expected we listen to her. THAT negates thinking you are listening to Christ when denying His Church.

Where does Christ say to His Church... "Listen to my Church"... ?

Please re-read my post. It’s all in there with tons of examples from Scripture as well as examples of Christ’s established Church doing just that – listening to His Church! I’m seriously not sure what more evidence you could possibly need. What exactly are you looking for?

Does He not tell His Church to listen to Him? As the above verses show?

Does He not tell us to listen to His Church, as all the Scripture I posted show?


Matthew 16:18-19: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


Acts 16:4: As they went on their way through the cities, they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem.


Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

1 Timothy 3:15
If I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.


1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

John 16:13
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

Acts 1:1-26
In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God. And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” ...

Luke 10:16
“The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 – the apostles are given Christ’s authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism).

Luke 9:1; 10:19 – Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions).

Luke 10:16 – Jesus tells His apostles, “he who hears you, hears Me.” When we hear the bishops’ teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself.

Luke 22:29 – the Father gives the kingdom to the Son, and the Son gives the kingdom to the apostles. The gift is transferred from the Father to the Son to the apostles.

Num 16:28 – the Father’s authority is transferred to Moses. Moses does not speak on his own. This is a real transfer of authority.

John 5:30 – similarly, Jesus as man does nothing of His own authority, but He acts under the authority of the Father.

John 7:16-17 – Jesus as man states that His authority is not His own, but from God. He will transfer this authority to other men.





John 16:14-15 – what the Father has, the Son has, and the Son gives it to the apostles. The authority is not lessened or mitigated.

John 17:18; 20:21 – as the Father sends the Son, the Son sends the apostles. The apostles have divinely appointed authority.

Acts 20:28 – the apostles are shepherds and guardians appointed by the Holy Spirit / 1 Peter 2:25 – Jesus is the Shepherd and Guardian. The apostles, by the power of the Spirit, share Christ’s ministry and authority.

Eph. 2:20 – the Christian faith is built upon the foundation of the apostles. The word “foundation” proves that it does not die with apostles, but carries on through succession.

Eph. 2:20; Rev. 21:9,14 – the words “household,” “Bride of the Lamb,” the “new Jerusalem” are all metaphors for the Church whose foundation is the apostles.

Acts 1:15-26 – the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ’s own authority.

Acts 1:20 – a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his “bishopric”) is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.”

Acts 1:22 – literally, “one must be ordained” to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ’s authority.

Acts 6:6 – apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

Acts 9:17-19 – even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

Acts 13:3 – apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

Acts 14:23 – the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.

Acts 15:22-27 – preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.

2 Cor. 1:21-22 – Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Col 1:25 – Paul calls his position a divine “office.” An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.

1 Tim. 3:1 – Paul uses the word “episcopoi” (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

1 Tim. 4:14 – again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).
1 Tim. 5:22 – Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

2 Tim. 1:6 – Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.

1 John 4:6 – whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).

Exodus 18:25-26 – Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.

Exodus 40:15 – the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.

Numbers 3:3 – the sons of Aaron were formally “anointed” priests in “ordination” to minister in the priests’ “office.”

Numbers 16:40 – shows God’s intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.

Numbers 27:18-20 – shows God’s intention that, through the “laying on of hands,” one is commissioned and has authority.

Deut. 34:9 – Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.

Sirach 45:15 – Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.

Acts 5:13 – the people acknowledged the apostles’ special authority and did not dare take it upon themselves.

Acts 15:6,24; 16:4 – the teaching authority is granted to the apostles and their successors. This teaching authority must be traced to the original apostles, or the authority is not sanctioned by Christ.

1 Cor. 5:3-5; 16:22; 1 Tim. 1:20; Gal 1:8; Matt 18:17 – these verses show the authority of the elders to excommunicate / anathemize (“deliver to satan”).

2 Cor. 2:17 – Paul says the elders are not just random peddlers of God’s word. They are actually commissioned by God. It is not self-appointed authority.

2 Cor. 3:6 – Paul says that certain men have been qualified by God to be ministers of a New Covenant. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of Christ handed down the ages through sacramental ordination.

2 Cor. 5:20 – Paul says we are “ambassadors” for Christ. This means that the apostles and their successors share an actual participation in Christ’s mission, which includes healing, forgiving sins, and confecting the sacraments.

2 Cor. 10:6 – in reference to the ordained, Paul says that they are ready to punish every disobedience. The Church has the authority excommunicate those who disobey her.

2 Cor. 10:8 – Paul acknowledges his authority over God’s people which the Lord gave to build up the Church.

1 Thess. 5:12-13 – Paul charges the members of the Church to respect those who have authority over them.

2 Thess. 3:14 – Paul says if a person does not obey what he has provided in his letter, have nothing to do with him.

1 Tim. 5:17 – Paul charges the members of the Church to honor the appointed elders (“priests”) of the Church.
Titus 2:15 – Paul charges Timothy to exhort and reprove with all authority, which he received by the laying on of hands.

1 Peter 5:5; Jude 8 – Peter and Jude charge the members of the Church to be subject to their elders.

2 Peter 2:10 – Peter warns the faithful about despising authority. He is referring to the apostolic authority granted to them by Christ.

3 John 9 – John points out that Diotrephes does not acknowledge John’s apostolic authority and declares that this is evil.

Deut. 17:10-13 – the Lord commands His faithful Israel to obey the priests that He puts in charge, and do to all that they direct and instruct. The Lord warns that those who do not obey His priests shall die.

Sirach 7:29-30 – with all your soul fear the Lord and honor His priests, love your Maker and do not forsake His ministers. God is not threatened by the authority He gives His children! God, as our Loving Father, invites us to participate in His plan of salvation with His Son Jesus. Without authority in the Church, there is error, chaos and confusion.
https://www.scripturecatholic.com/apost ... uccession/

Is that enough Scripture passages for you? How is it you only seem to repeat these . . .

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."

When we submit our lives to Jesus in faith, we also must submit to the Church he established.

See now, this seems to be contradicting the quote from Paul (from one of the articles) about how wives are to submit to their husbands (comparing the wife to the Church, and Christ to the Husband, so that the Church is to submit to Christ).

Gaaahhh . . . no you are missing the whole point! Do you even understand the passage of, “Wives submit to your husbands”? The reciprocity couldn’t be more clear. Husbands are told, “Love your wives”. Forget the marriage comparison. It was supposed to help demonstrate how much Christ loved His Church. If He loves His Church, established it, gave it authority, told her to help take care of His sheep, and promised to remain with her and guide her in all truth, that ought to mean something! That ought to demonstrate the significance of His Church! Christ promised to remain with His Church, so should we.

We can't merely make it up as we go, but must follow the commandments of God,

One of which is,

"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."

So, why don’t you? His son tells us to listen to His Church! It’s just really odd to me to try to deny this. Why dismiss half of what Jesus said?

I really really hope you will contemplate on all this. I think you have been ill informed about Christ’s Church and are stuck in your notion to think you don’t need it. It’s a gift from God and what He intended. The evidence is overwhelming on this matter. Trust Him.

Take care and have a good evening.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #57]

The passages you cite show God is the way, the truth, and the life.

The passages cite that Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is the Way (to God), the Truth (of God).

Do you not believe Christ is God? The divinity of Christ and belief in the Trinity is the basic tenet of Christianity.

Christ is the Son of God. He is the Holy One (of God). God (the Father of Christ) is the MOST Holy One.

But regardless of what you or anyone else believe about that, the "I" in the passage "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life"... is Christ.

Your passages show that Jesus is the head of His Church.


That the Christ is the Head of the Church, yes.

Is there a difference between Jesus and Christ? Please fill me in.

Just that the name "Jesus" is not accurate, so if someone else is using that I will often just use Christ.

My Lord's name is Jaheshua.

But none of your passages contradict or negate that Christ established a Church and expected her to be His authoritative voice on earth.

None of the passages I cited were meant to negate the truth that Christ has a Church. The passages I cited were in response to you questioning why I listen to Christ (and not to a religion, or to men, or to 'religious leaders', or even to a book).

But what you posted is not an answer to why you listen to Christ or a demonstration of it.

How is that you did not see an answer there? I listen to Christ because a) He is the One to whom God tells me to listen; and b) Christ also states that we (His sheep) are to listen to Him.

Come to Me. Learn from Me. Listen to my voice. Keep my word. Remain in me. < - how much more clear do people need this to be?

But Christ has His own voice, which His sheep are to listen to. As He has said.

Yes, and you skip the part of Scripture where Jesus tells Peter, “Feed my sheep”.

I don't have to skip it; it does not apply. Christ is also talking to Peter here, not to me or to you or to anyone else, so this is not an instruction from Him to me (or to you or to anyone else).

You are also interpreting what He meant when He told Peter 'feed my sheep', and in such a way that it contradicts what He said TO and ABOUT His sheep (my sheep listen to my voice; come to me; remain in me; learn from me; keep my word.) He would not have contradicted Himself.

And as an aside, I find it ironic that you quote me Bible passages while simultaneously claiming you give no authority to the book. What you really mean, is you listen to the Bible when it suits you and cite the passages you like or that confirm your pre existing theology, but dismiss it and want to say it holds no authority when passages that contradict your view.

The passages that I shared support what I have shared, that my Lord has said. But I listen to Him. I am just pointing out the passages from the bible that show this is what we are supposed to be doing.

As to your articles, I do not see how any of them negate what I shared, or how they even respond to the questions I asked.

Then you didn’t actually read them. All of them showed all the evidence that Christ established His Church and expected we listen to her. THAT negates thinking you are listening to Christ when denying His Church.

I did read them. If they answered my simple and direct question, then there would have been no need to post multiple articles. You could have just done what I did, which is share the direct passage which states the thing that your religion is claiming.

Where does Christ say to His Church... "Listen to my Church"... ?

Please re-read my post. It’s all in there with tons of examples from Scripture as well as examples of Christ’s established Church doing just that – listening to His Church! I’m seriously not sure what more evidence you could possibly need. What exactly are you looking for?

I'm looking for His words to us - that states (as you keep claiming) - "Listen to my Church."

If there was such a commandment, you would have listed it by now.

Does He not tell His Church to listen to Him? As the above verses show?

Does He not tell us to listen to His Church, as all the Scripture I posted show?

None of the passages that you cited are Christ telling His Church to listen to His Church.

On the other hand, the verses that I posted do show that He (Christ) told His Church (His Bride) to listen to Him. That His Father instructed the same thing (This is my Son, whom I love, listen to Him.)

When we submit our lives to Jesus in faith, we also must submit to the Church he established.

See now, this seems to be contradicting the quote from Paul (from one of the articles) about how wives are to submit to their husbands (comparing the wife to the Church, and Christ to the Husband, so that the Church is to submit to Christ).

Gaaahhh . . . no you are missing the whole point! Do you even understand the passage of, “Wives submit to your husbands”? The reciprocity couldn’t be more clear. Husbands are told, “Love your wives”. Forget the marriage comparison. It was supposed to help demonstrate how much Christ loved His Church. If He loves His Church, established it, gave it authority, told her to help take care of His sheep, and promised to remain with her and guide her in all truth, that ought to mean something! That ought to demonstrate the significance of His Church! Christ promised to remain with His Church, so should we.

If you ignore the marriage comparison, then you are ignoring a part of what Paul is saying. For certain Christ loves His Church - but His Church is His Bride (the New Jerusalem).

Paul specifically states what I said above:

Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Then comes the instruction also about husbands loving their wives as Christ loves the Church:

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church — 30 for we are members of his body.


**

Do you not understand that we (if we are in Christ) ARE the Church?

The Church is the Body of Christ, the Bride, the New Jerusalem, all made up of the people who are in Him, all of them having HIM as their Head.

We can't merely make it up as we go, but must follow the commandments of God,

One of which is,

"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."

So, why don’t you? His son tells us to listen to His Church! It’s just really odd to me to try to deny this. Why dismiss half of what Jesus said?

Because He never said what you keep claiming He said.

Trust Him.

I do. That is why I will remain in Him and listen to Him.

Take care and have a good evening.

Thank you and you as well.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy