Today's Excellent Church.

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Benson
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Today's Excellent Church.

Post #1

Post by Benson »

Acts 2 gives the narrative of how the Body of Christ His Church was brought into being by the coming of The Holy Spirit, according to Joel ch. 2 as cited by Apostle Peter.

Today, there are no features within modern Christendom which are a continuation of either Acts ch. 2, Joel ch. 2, The Jerusalem Messianic Church, or the Pauline Gentile Church.

This post remains very short because there is no other information in Scripture to authenticate the state of today's so called "Church." If one thinks the Church does exist today according to the foundation of the Apostles with Christ as the Cornerstone, tell us where on Earth it exists in the hearts of Men before God. No place in Paul's teaching says the Church is some intangibly perceived group of minds set upon faith in Christ.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #201

Post by Tcg »

RightReason wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 6:08 pm
And not only did the people have to get on the Ark, Noah was instructed to build it. God didn’t build it for him. He was told to build it and be in charge of gathering the people and the animals.
If by "the people" you are referring to Noah's family, then yes:
Genesis 7:

1 Then the Lord said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you are righteous before me in this generation.

7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives with him went into the ark to escape the waters of the flood.
There is no mention of an other people having the opportunity to board the ark. Of course this shouldn't surprise us, it is what God planned:
Genesis 6:18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you shall come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you.
Noah's family are the only people God planned to have on the ark and indeed were the only ones who boarded it.


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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #202

Post by 2timothy316 »

RightReason wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:38 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:26 pm
That is not a good comparison. The Ark was an inanimate object with no brain to make decisions.
I guess one does need to have a proper understanding of the role of the Church to understand the analogy. The Church is being compared to the Ark because those who got on the ark were the ones that were saved. The Ark was the people’s means to salvation, just like Christ’s Church on earth. Get it?
Oh I understand the role of the RCC. To place itself as god to the world. To call itself the savior, which is blasphemy. But the Bible does say the harlot who rides the wild beast (the nations of the world) is filled with blasphemous sayings. Revelation 17:3.

Comparing the RCC to the Ark? If this is what the RCC is teaching, then once again it shows that they don't teach what the Bible teaches.

"While the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, is also now saving you (not by the removing of the filth of the flesh, but by the request to God for a good conscience), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." - 1 Peter 3:20,21

According to the Bible it is asking for a clear conscience before God along with dedication to Christ through water baptism that is compared to the Ark.
So, did God or did God not send the Ark to save the people? It’s a simple question really.
He didn't send the Ark. Noah built the Ark. The only thing God did was send the instructions. Noah and his family had to have faith to build it. Dedication by Baptism is our Ark. The Ark took both faith and work to build. Jehovah didn't build it for them. He didn't scoop them up and put them in the Ark. Same goes for Baptism. God doesn't force Baptism on us and He doesn't force faith on us.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #203

Post by RightReason »

tam wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:46 pm Peace to you,
RightReason wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 6:08 pm
tam wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:55 pm Peace to you both (and to you all)!


Christ is the Ark.

Not a religion.

Just sayin'

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
So, did God or did God not send the Ark to save the people? It’s a simple question really.
Of course God did. God sent Christ. Christ saves the people. Christ is the Ark.

If you can’t admit that God told the people in order to be saved they must get on the Ark, then you are denying the Word of God in Genesis.
Of course I can admit that God told the people in order to be saved they must get on the Ark. Christ is the Ark.
And not only did the people have to get on the Ark, Noah was instructed to build it. God didn’t build it for him. He was told to build it and be in charge of gathering the people and the animals.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here?

If you are saying the Church (by which you mean the RCC) is the Ark, then I am not sure what the relevance is of saying Noah built the Ark. Because Christ builds the Church.

"... on this Rock, I will build my Church..."

Regardless of who you think the Rock is, Christ is the One who builds the Church.


Why is that soooo hard for some of you to admit. It’s an odd obstinance. In no way is the story of Noah’s Ark about usurping God’s power. That is a very disordered view to hold.
Your objections to what I wrote don't make sense to me. Perhaps take a moment to reread? I have not read the entire exchange that has been happening between you and others, but for myself, I can tell you that I never suggested anything about Noah's Ark usurping God's power.
Tam, I think you are unfamiliar with types in studying the Bible. And trying not to be rude, you are a broken record. If the only thing God wanted to reveal to us is that Christ is our foundation, then He could have just said that and left it at that. You continue to only repeat the passages that show us Christ is the shepherd and the way. We Christians all know that and we agree. That does not mean Christ did not establish His Church, establish the Sacraments, and use others to communicate with us. Peter too was our shepherd. Jesus told Him, “Feed my sheep”. The irony of claiming you only listen to Christ is that you are not listening to Christ when He left us His Church and said to her, “He who hears you, hears me” and His Church gave us Sacred Scripture which is the Word of God and tells us the Church is ‘the pillar and foundation of truth’.

The Church is not usurping Christ’s authority. Christ Himself gave it to her. But you are usurping Christ’s authority by not accepting His plan and means for our salvation. You are limiting God. Your entire theological view is illogical, unbiblical, and impractical. Once again, your attempt to claim purity in only listening to Christ and denying His authoritative Church and public revelation of Sacred Scripture logistically boils down to only listening to Tam.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #204

Post by RightReason »

2timothy316 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:50 am
Oh I understand the role of the RCC. To place itself as god to the world. To call itself the savior, which is blasphemy.
The Church does not call herself the savior. That is a lie. The Church does recognize Christ’s plan to establish an authoritative Church for the means to our salvation.

But the Bible does say the harlot who rides the wild beast (the nations of the world) is filled with blasphemous sayings. Revelation 17:3.
Oy vey! Again with the harlot. Give it up. That is another one of your misapplications of God’s Holy Book.

He didn't send the Ark. Noah built the Ark. The only thing God did was send the instructions. Noah and his family had to have faith to build it.
Wow! That sounds like what I’ve been trying to say all along. God gave us the instructions – His Word (the Bible) and His Church. We are expected to have faith and listen to these means.
Jehovah didn't build it for them. He didn't scoop them up and put them in the Ark. Same goes for Baptism. God doesn't force Baptism on us
Exactly! He won’t force us to be united with Him. He left us Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. For those who have ears, let them hear. We all have the choice to believe and accept His gift of faith and do what His Church and the Bible tell us we ought. He left us so much help, such great guides, but ultimately the choice is ours. So, no He won’t force us to get baptized, but again, those who didn’t get on the ark, were swept away. Clearly, they should have gone on the ark to be saved. Not because the ark is our savior, but because it was the means to salvation that Our savior intended.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #205

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
RightReason wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 1:26 pm
tam wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:46 pm Peace to you,
RightReason wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 6:08 pm
tam wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:55 pm Peace to you both (and to you all)!


Christ is the Ark.

Not a religion.

Just sayin'

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
So, did God or did God not send the Ark to save the people? It’s a simple question really.
Of course God did. God sent Christ. Christ saves the people. Christ is the Ark.

If you can’t admit that God told the people in order to be saved they must get on the Ark, then you are denying the Word of God in Genesis.
Of course I can admit that God told the people in order to be saved they must get on the Ark. Christ is the Ark.
And not only did the people have to get on the Ark, Noah was instructed to build it. God didn’t build it for him. He was told to build it and be in charge of gathering the people and the animals.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here?

If you are saying the Church (by which you mean the RCC) is the Ark, then I am not sure what the relevance is of saying Noah built the Ark. Because Christ builds the Church.

"... on this Rock, I will build my Church..."

Regardless of who you think the Rock is, Christ is the One who builds the Church.


Why is that soooo hard for some of you to admit. It’s an odd obstinance. In no way is the story of Noah’s Ark about usurping God’s power. That is a very disordered view to hold.
Your objections to what I wrote don't make sense to me. Perhaps take a moment to reread? I have not read the entire exchange that has been happening between you and others, but for myself, I can tell you that I never suggested anything about Noah's Ark usurping God's power.
Tam, I think you are unfamiliar with types in studying the Bible.


Just because I cannot accept the claim about the RCC being the Ark, does not mean that I do not understand type/antitype.
And trying not to be rude, you are a broken record.


I simply responded to the things you said in your post. You have said the same things over and over again as well (as you do with the second half of this post. I'm not repeatedly addressing those things, as I think I stated some posts back, because we have been through it).

But this was something new about the Ark.
If the only thing God wanted to reveal to us is that Christ is our foundation, then He could have just said that and left it at that.
I did not say one word about foundation in this post.

You continue to only repeat the passages that show us Christ is the shepherd and the way. We Christians all know that and we agree.
Those things that I bolded in your post are true, but I did not repeat those things in this post.

**

And if I do repeat them, it is often because someone is claiming something else (despite saying 'we know and we agree'). For example:
That does not mean Christ did not establish His Church, establish the Sacraments, and use others to communicate with us. Peter too was our shepherd. Jesus told Him, “Feed my sheep”. The irony of claiming you only listen to Christ is that you are not listening to Christ when He left us His Church and said to her, “He who hears you, hears me” and His Church gave us Sacred Scripture which is the Word of God and tells us the Church is ‘the pillar and foundation of truth’.
The bold and underlined is not true.

Christ is the Word of God. Not scripture; not the bible. Christ is the Living Word of the Living God. He is the Word of God who came to the prophets, who lives, who continues to speak to us even now.

I know, I know... you know these verses already... so then why believe the erroneous claim that a religion makes about a book being the Word of God (a book that is not alive, that does not speak, and that can and does have errors, see Jeremiah 8:8)?

Two claims are being made:

1 - Christ is the Word of God.

2 - the Bible is the Word of God.

Only one of these claims is true.


The Living God has a living Word.


Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #206

Post by RightReason »

tam wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 5:07 pm
Two claims are being made:

1 - Christ is the Word of God.

2 - the Bible is the Word of God.

Only one of these claims is true.
Not quite.

This is how Pope Francis explained it in 2013. It is spot on and most beautiful. And if you read it carefully, you will find the Catholic position gets IT in its fullness . . .

*********

the Word of God, in the Catholic and Orthodox understanding, is not confined to Scripture; rather, Pope Francis noted,

Sacred Scripture is the written testimony of the divine Word, the canonical memory that attests to the event of Revelation. However, the Word of God precedes the Bible and surpasses it. That is why the centre of our faith isn't just a book, but a salvation history and above all a person, Jesus Christ, the Word of God made flesh.

The relationship between Christ, the Word Made Flesh, and the Scriptures, the written Word of God, lies at the heart of what the Church calls Sacred Tradition:

It is precisely because the Word of God embraces and extends beyond Scripture that, in order to properly understand it, the Holy Spirit's constant presence, who guides us "to all truth," is necessary. It is necessary to place ourselves within the great Tradition that has, with the Holy Spirit's assistance and the Magisterium's guidance, recognized the canonical writings as the Word that God addresses to his people, who have never ceased meditating upon it and discovering inexhaustible riches from it.

The Bible is a form of God's revelation to man, but the most complete form of that revelation is found in the person of Jesus Christ. The Scriptures arose out of the life of the Church—that is, out of the life of those believers who encountered Christ, both personally and through their fellow believers. They were written within the context of that relationship with Christ, and the selection of the canon—of the books that would become the Bible—occurred within that context. But even after the canon of Scripture is determined, Scripture remains only a portion of the Word of God, because the fullness of the Word is found in the life of the Church and her relationship to Christ:

In fact, Sacred Scripture is the Word of God in that it is written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Sacred Tradition, instead, transmits the Word of God in its entirety, entrusted by Christ the Lord and by the Holy Spirit to the Apostles and their successors, so that these, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, might faithfully preserve it with their preaching, might expound and propound it.

And that is why severing Scripture, and especially the interpretation of Scripture, from the life of the Church and her teaching authority is very dangerous because it presents a portion of the Word of God as if it were the entirety:

The interpretation of Sacred Scriptures cannot be just an individual academic effort, but must always be compared to, inserted within, and authenticated by the living tradition of the Church. This norm is essential in identifying the proper and reciprocal relationship between the exegesis and the Magisterium of the Church. The texts that God inspired were entrusted to the Community of believers, the Church of Christ, to nourish the faith and to guide the life of charity.

Separated from the Church, either through academic treatment or through individual interpretation, Scripture is cut off from the person of Christ, Who lives on through the Church that He established and that He entrusted to the guidance of the Holy Spirit:

All of what has been said about the way of interpreting Scripture is subject finally to the judgement of the Church, which carries out the divine commission and ministry of guarding and interpreting the word of God.

Understanding the relationship between Scripture and Tradition, and the role of the Church in integrating the Word of God as revealed in Scripture into the Word of God as revealed most fully in Christ is essential. Scripture lies at the heart of the life of the Church, not because it stands alone and is self-interpreted, but precisely because "the centre of our faith" is "a salvation history and above all a person, Jesus Christ, the Word of God made flesh," and not "just a book." Tearing the book from the heart of the Church not only leaves a hole in the Church but tears the life of Christ from the Scriptures.

https://www.learnreligions.com/pope-fra ... od-3970724

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #207

Post by onewithhim »

Tcg wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:38 pm
RightReason wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 6:08 pm
And not only did the people have to get on the Ark, Noah was instructed to build it. God didn’t build it for him. He was told to build it and be in charge of gathering the people and the animals.
If by "the people" you are referring to Noah's family, then yes:
Genesis 7:

1 Then the Lord said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you are righteous before me in this generation.

7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives with him went into the ark to escape the waters of the flood.
There is no mention of an other people having the opportunity to board the ark. Of course this shouldn't surprise us, it is what God planned:
Genesis 6:18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you shall come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you.
Noah's family are the only people God planned to have on the ark and indeed were the only ones who boarded it.


Tcg
It wasn't that God planned on only Noah and his family......that is what He discerned to be the reality of the situation. No other people cared to listen to Noah when he warned them about the coming deluge. Jehovah was just accepting that fact. (Noah was a "preacher of righteousness"....2 Peter 2:5, so we know that he warned people about the necessity of listening to God.)

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #208

Post by 2timothy316 »

RightReason wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 1:47 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:50 am
Oh I understand the role of the RCC. To place itself as god to the world. To call itself the savior, which is blasphemy.
The Church does not call herself the savior. That is a lie.
Then stop spreading the lie.

Post 192 where you call the RCC the savior by comparing it to Noah's Ark, an unScriptural comparison.
viewtopic.php?p=1038913#p1038913

Post 187 the RCC calling the Bible, the Word of God "their book!" Taking possession and credit for something that belongs to the Almighty God Jehovah.
viewtopic.php?p=1038907#p1038907

Here's a test, There are at least a dozen countries in the world where the RCC doesn't operate. What will happen to the people in those countries where the RCC doesn't exist? Don't answer me, because I don't have confidence I will get a truthful answer, but answer yourself. That answer is what you think of the RCC.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #209

Post by RightReason »

2timothy316 wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 10:27 am
The Church does not call herself the savior. That is a lie.
Then stop spreading the lie.

Post 192 where you call the RCC the savior by comparing it to Noah's Ark, an unScriptural comparison.
viewtopic.php?p=1038913#p1038913

Post 187 the RCC calling the Bible, the Word of God "their book!" Taking possession and credit for something that belongs to the Almighty God Jehovah.
viewtopic.php?p=1038907#p1038907
[/quote]

Neither of these are examples of the Church calling herself the Savior. They simply illustrate what they illustrate which is God’s will to use the Church as a means to our salvation.
Here's a test, There are at least a dozen countries in the world where the RCC doesn't operate. What will happen to the people in those countries where the RCC doesn't exist?
That is obviously up to our all just and loving God. He is capable of knowing if someone is ignorant through no fault of their own. However, those who have heard the message, let them hear.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #210

Post by 2timothy316 »

RightReason wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 10:21 pm They simply illustrate what they illustrate which is God’s will to use the Church as a means to our salvation.
You still don't hear yourself do you, because then you say about people in places that the RCC doesn't exist.
That is obviously up to our all just and loving God. He is capable of knowing if someone is ignorant through no fault of their own.
It's certainly not the RCC that is their means of salvation is it. Then that makes your first statement, its 'is God’s will to use the Church as a means to our salvation' false. What is their salvation? Ignorance? Does RCC not even know what the means of the world's salvation is? Can it really only see itself as that means?

Here is the real salvation.

“Narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (Matthew 7:14)

It's the road that leads to life and not the people that travel on it that leads to salvation. The people that travel together on that road are companions and not the salvation of mankind. I personally believe I have found that road and JWs so far have been the only people I have found on it. This doesn't make JWs the means to my salvation or anyone's salvation. Because one day I might find myself with no JW with me like those that live in places where the Witnesses are banned or in prison. Where they are completely cut off from even a Bible. In other words, if no people were on the road to life but yourself, than the church is not a person's salvation.

A religion should be a group that one joins on the road to salvation not be the keeper or the means of your salvation. Anyone that thinks in the terms 'my religion is my Ark' is setting themselves up for failure in faith.

For the RCC to call itself as being used as 'the means to salvation' saying its a person's Ark or road is highly arrogant, blasphemous and just plain false. By your comments above you seem to know this but now have committed yourself to a 'sunk cost' fallacy and will not allow yourself to take back your comments.
Last edited by 2timothy316 on Fri May 14, 2021 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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