Today's Excellent Church.

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Benson
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Today's Excellent Church.

Post #1

Post by Benson »

Acts 2 gives the narrative of how the Body of Christ His Church was brought into being by the coming of The Holy Spirit, according to Joel ch. 2 as cited by Apostle Peter.

Today, there are no features within modern Christendom which are a continuation of either Acts ch. 2, Joel ch. 2, The Jerusalem Messianic Church, or the Pauline Gentile Church.

This post remains very short because there is no other information in Scripture to authenticate the state of today's so called "Church." If one thinks the Church does exist today according to the foundation of the Apostles with Christ as the Cornerstone, tell us where on Earth it exists in the hearts of Men before God. No place in Paul's teaching says the Church is some intangibly perceived group of minds set upon faith in Christ.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #211

Post by onewithhim »

Let's all be very positive here for a minute. The Bible teaches that Jesus is the means by which Jehovah God saves. To be saved we must accept that and then "follow in his steps closely." (I Peter 2:21) That would include listening to him, and believing ALL that he taught. One thing he taught, and Catholic people pray this every day---the Our Father. He said to pray that God's will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven, and this would be connected to the KINGDOM that we pray for---"thy Kingdom come." So God's Kingdom ruling over the earth would bring about God's will on Earth. Jesus also said, a little earlier: "The meek shall inherit the earth." (Matthew 5:5)

Jesus quoted from the Old Testament constantly, considering it all "God's Word." (John 17:17) Therefore, he knew that the earth would be here forever and that people would be living on it in peaceful conditions, even with the animals (Ecclesiastes 1:4; Psalm 37:29; Isaiah 11:6-9). Wouldn't the true Church be teaching these things that Jesus believed and taught? (I asked a priest once if he knew what God's Kingdom was, and he said, "I don't know.")

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #212

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #211]

For the RCC to call itself as being used as 'the means to salvation' saying its a person's Ark or road is highly arrogant, blasphemous and just plain false.
Doesn't the JW organization make similar claims?

But if we were to draw away from Jehovah’s organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy. (Compare John 6:66-69.) w93 9/15 p. 22-23

Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at John 10:16. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. km 11/90 p. 1

And while now the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation, the time no doubt will come when the message takes on a harder tone... w81 11/15 p. 21




**


We are not saved in or by an organization (religious or otherwise). We are saved in Christ. And there is no 'place' else to go (John 6:66-69) because there is only a to WHOM we must go:

From that time on many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him. So [Jesus] asked the Twelve, “Do you want to leave too?” Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God.” John 6:66-69

That was all about coming to and remaining in Christ. A person. Not an organization. Not other people.

"Come to me all who are weary and burdened I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Matt 11:28-30

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink." John 7:37



Peace again to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #213

Post by 2timothy316 »

tam wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:28 pm Peace to you,
[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #211]

For the RCC to call itself as being used as 'the means to salvation' saying its a person's Ark or road is highly arrogant, blasphemous and just plain false.
Doesn't the JW organization make similar claims?

But if we were to draw away from Jehovah’s organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy. (Compare John 6:66-69.) w93 9/15 p. 22-23

Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at John 10:16. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. km 11/90 p. 1

And while now the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation, the time no doubt will come when the message takes on a harder tone... w81 11/15 p. 21
This is why you should always look for the newer publications and not the 30 and 40 year old ones for the best explanations. While what those articles say are not wrong yet the quotes are out of context thus being stripped of the relationship of God's people and the road to life. If you will note the key is the term "Jehovah's organization". God's organization would always be on the road to salvation would it not? The name of the religion might even change. King David was on the road to life. So was Moses. Yet their religion wasn't called Jehovah's Witnesses.

Here is the link to our current teaching that we are on the road to life and we are showing people to that road but we are not the road. We also recognize that some people have been studying their Bible and in that study they found us. However, nowhere in the new information do we call ourselves people's salvation. That being said there are no other religion is on the narrow road. In other words, there is no way to travel on the narrow road to life and not be next to a JW. Because if the Jehovah's Witness religion were not on that road, not only would I change religions but so would millions of others. Being on the road is essential and that will put one in Jehovah' organization. To draw away from it would put one off the road to life just like pulling off the road to life will take a person away from Jehovah's organization. The road to life will always have God's people on it.

"Jesus Christ didn’t agree with the view that there are many religions, many roads, all leading to salvation. Rather, he said: “Narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (Matthew 7:14) Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that they’ve found that road. Otherwise, they’d look for another religion."
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... -religion/

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines ... ions-good/
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/who-saved/

Please update your information with the above links Tam.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #214

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
2timothy316 wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 3:12 pm
tam wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:28 pm Peace to you,
[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #211]

For the RCC to call itself as being used as 'the means to salvation' saying its a person's Ark or road is highly arrogant, blasphemous and just plain false.
Doesn't the JW organization make similar claims?

But if we were to draw away from Jehovah’s organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy. (Compare John 6:66-69.) w93 9/15 p. 22-23

Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at John 10:16. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. km 11/90 p. 1

And while now the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation, the time no doubt will come when the message takes on a harder tone... w81 11/15 p. 21
This is why you should always look for the newer publications and not the 30 and 40 year old ones. While what those articles say are not completely wrong yet they are not completely accurate.
So was it okay 30 years ago for the WTS to make "blasphemous statements" (your words when describing the RCC and their similar claims)? They could make blasphemous statements (your description of the RCC and similar claims) and still be "Jehovah's organization"? How does that make sense? The things you said to RR about the RCC were true of the JW religion in as little as 30 years ago, but that doesn't matter? Did the JW religion ever come out and say, 'we were wrong'? Those were blasphemous sayings?' Or did she just make the same statements albeit in a more subtle manner?

Here is the link to our current teaching that we are on the road to life and we are showing people to that road but we are not the road. We also recognize that some people have been studying their Bible and in that study they found us. However, nowhere in the new information do we call ourselves people's salvation. That being said there are no other religion is on the narrow road. In other words, there is no way to travel on the narrow road to life and not be next to a JW. Because if the Jehovah's Witness religion were not on that road, not only would I change religions but so would millions of others. Being on the road is essential and that will put one in Jehovah' organization. To draw away from it would put one off the road to life just pulling off the road to life will take a person away from Jehovah's organization.
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines ... ions-good/
The 'current teaching' appears to be saying the same thing, just in a less obvious manner.
Please update your information Tam.
Okay.

During the final period of the “ancient world” that perished in the Flood, Noah was a faithful “preacher of righteousness.” (2 Peter 2:5) In these last days of the present system of things, Jehovah’s people are making known God’s righteous standards and are declaring good news about the possibility of surviving into the new world. (2 Peter 3:9-13) Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization. w06 5/15 p. 22-23

That one was 2006, and it is comparing people in the JW organization to Noah and his family on the ark.

(I think this is referring to surviving Armageddon - I could be mistaken - but JW's also teach that no one on the earth who is killed during Armageddon receive a resurrection or eternal life, with some possible exceptions such as mental illness. They also might not be coming out and saying 'the JW organization is the ark', but I don't think there can be much doubt that this is a comparison that they are making.)

"That faithful slave is the channel through which Jesus is feeding his true followers in this time of the end. It is vital that we recognize the faithful slave. Our spiritual health and our relationship with God depend on this channel." w13 7/15 p. 20-21 (According to that same article, the Governing Body of the JW religion is that 'faithful slave')


That one is 2013.



**


None of these things are true of course. Not when the RCC or the WTS or any other religious organization makes these claims.


John 6:66-69
Matt 11:28-30
John 7:37
John 3:16



Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #215

Post by tam »

Peace again,

[Replying to tam in post #215]

Just a quick comment on what you added:

"Jesus Christ didn’t agree with the view that there are many religions, many roads, all leading to salvation. Rather, he said: “Narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.” (Matthew 7:14) Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that they’ve found that road. Otherwise, they’d look for another religion."
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... -religion/


I don't know how you can you read that passage and not see that they're calling their religion that road.


Another quote from them regarding religion and the road:

There are only two types of religion: one that leads to life and one that leads to destruction. This publication can help you find the road that leads to everlasting life.


[Jesus] taught his followers only one religion, the true religion. It is like a road leading to life. Regarding that road, Jesus said: “Few are the ones finding it.” w11 8/1 p. 16



Peace again to you.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #216

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:03 pm

I don't know how you can you read that passage and not see that they're calling their religion that road.
The citations do not speak of "religion" it speaks if Jehovahs organisiation.

Jehovahs organisation =
JEHOVAH
°°°|°°°
Jesus
°°°|°°°
The faithful Angels
°°°|°°°
(presently: spirit anointed christian church)
Jehovah has not always had a visible part if his organisation but I dont know which flavor of..."Christians" .. believe they can be saved independent of Jesus himself (or the bride class to which he Jesus is promised) both of which are components of Jehovah's organisation today.

The bible does not support the dogma of "a religion of one" as is so common amonst the "internet Christians" of the "I-don't-recognise-God-having-an-organisation-at-all" sect. Those that do not recognise Jehovah as having organised his servants (both seen and unseen) in various ways throughout the ages, do well to think again in the light of the bible. Or use a good dictionary to educate themselves as to what the word "organisation" actually means.

1 Corinthians 12:27 - Berean Study Bible

Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it.

Cross References
Romans 12:5
so in Christ we who are many are one body, and each member belongs to one another.

1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

1 Corinthians 6:15
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never!

1 Corinthians 10:17
Because there is one loaf, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one loaf.

1 Corinthians 12:12
The body is a unit, though it is composed of many parts. And although its parts are many, they all form one body. So it is with Christ.

Colossians 1:18
And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence.



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS




Further reading: Do You Need Organized Religion?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -religion/
To read more please go to other posts related to POSTS RELATED to ...

RELIGION, CHRISTIANITY and ...JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat May 15, 2021 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #217

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:00 am
tam wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:03 pm

I don't know how you can you read that passage and not see that they're calling their religion that road.
The citations do not speak of "religion" it speaks if Jehovahs organisiation.
I'm sorry, but read the citations again.
Otherwise, they’d look for another religion.
There are only two types of religion: one that leads to life and one that leads to destruction.
The citations (these and others) 100% speak directly of religion.


Jehovah has not always had a visible part if his organisation but I dont know which flavor of..."Christians" .. believe they can be saved independent of Jesus himself (or the bride class to which he Jesus is promised) both of which are components of Jehovah's organisation today.
Christ does not teach of a 'bride class' of Christians. That is purely a religious teaching, a teaching of men, dividing Christians into two 'classes'. Christ did not teach that; He taught that there is one flock (John 10:16). See also Ephesians 4:4,5. Christ tore down the wall between Jew and Gentile. He did not then turn around and put a wall back up between His own sheep.

I know of no Christian who believes that they can be saved independent of Christ. I certainly never made that claim.


The bible does not support the dogma of "a religion of one" as is so common amonst the "internet Christians" of the "I-don't-recognise-God-having-an-organisation-at-all" sect.

I never argued for religion at all, much less a 'religion of one', so how does this apply to anything I have said?
Those that do not recognise Jehovah as having organised his servants (both seen and unseen) in various ways throughout the ages, do well to think again in the light of the bible. Or use a good dictionary to educate themselves as to what the word "organisation" actually means.
You're just changing the word 'religion' to 'organization', but any other religion could do the same thing that you are doing here: changing a word, but all the attributes of 'religion' remain.

And I have no problem with the verses that you supplied in your previous post (though it would be your religion that teaches her people that those verses do not apply to most of you, because most of you are not members of the Body of Christ, the Church, the Bride). But it is not a religion who decides where to place the members of the Body, nor even WHO are members of that Body. Christ is the One who chooses and prepares our place, and trains us, and gives gifts to the members of His Body as He knows are needed, to assist in building that Body UP.




Peace again to you.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #218

Post by JehovahsWitness »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:00 am
The citations do not speak of "religion" it speaks if Jehovahs organisiation.

Jehovahs organisation =
JEHOVAH
°°°|°°°
Jesus
°°°|°°°
The faithful Angels
°°°|°°°
(presently: spirit anointed christian church)

tam wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 1:30 pm The citations (these and others) 100% speak directly of religion.
My comment was regarding your citations below...

tam wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:28 pm Peace to you,


But if we were to draw away from Jehovah’s organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy. (Compare John 6:66-69.) w93 9/15 p. 22-23

Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at John 10:16. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. km 11/90 p. 1

And while now the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation, the time no doubt will come when the message takes on a harder tone... w81 11/15 p. 21


This seemed to be an attempt to use the citations linking Jesus and his own is (ie. God's organization) with salvation as something ..."blasphemous", which is obviously not the case.





JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat May 15, 2021 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #219

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
tam wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 1:30 pm The citations (these and others) 100% speak directly of religion.
Please provide a direct link or a reference. You seem to be referring to something other than below...
Yes, I am referring to exactly what is written in the post that you responded to, one citation of which timothy provided himself.


I'm not sure how you're missing that.



Peace again to you.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #220

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 1:30 pm The citations (these and others) 100% speak directly of religion.

None of the below mention religion... they speak of Jehovah's organisation. Are you perhaps seeing things that are not there?
tam wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:28 pm Peace to you,


But if we were to draw away from Jehovah’s organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy. (Compare John 6:66-69.) w93 9/15 p. 22-23

Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at John 10:16. They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. km 11/90 p. 1

And while now the witness yet includes the invitation to come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation, the time no doubt will come when the message takes on a harder tone... w81 11/15 p. 21







JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat May 15, 2021 2:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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