Today's Excellent Church.

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Benson
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Today's Excellent Church.

Post #1

Post by Benson »

Acts 2 gives the narrative of how the Body of Christ His Church was brought into being by the coming of The Holy Spirit, according to Joel ch. 2 as cited by Apostle Peter.

Today, there are no features within modern Christendom which are a continuation of either Acts ch. 2, Joel ch. 2, The Jerusalem Messianic Church, or the Pauline Gentile Church.

This post remains very short because there is no other information in Scripture to authenticate the state of today's so called "Church." If one thinks the Church does exist today according to the foundation of the Apostles with Christ as the Cornerstone, tell us where on Earth it exists in the hearts of Men before God. No place in Paul's teaching says the Church is some intangibly perceived group of minds set upon faith in Christ.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #21

Post by RightReason »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:08 pm
- Stay loyal to the word of God as expressed in the teachings of Christ. Adopting pagan teaching such as the trinity, the immorality of the soul, eternal torture of the dead in hellfire ect is evidence that a religion has departed from the fundamental teaching of Christ and does not meet Gods standards.
It is the JW’s who invented heretical, unbiblical teachings like soul sleep and deny the clear evidence of Jesus’ divinity in Scripture. Your founder added words to Sacred Scripture and had to twist many passages in order to fit into his invented theology.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #22

Post by JehovahsWitness »

RightReason wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:09 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:08 pm With all, due respect all the members of the Catholic church are not active preachers of the Kingdom.
...The Apostles were sent by Jesus, had hands laid upon them, and were told to preach.
This is true. However are you suggesting speading the good news to non-believers and teaching those willing to become disciples of Christ (so the Christian community grows to include an ever greater number of men and women) was to be restricted to a small group of selected men alone?
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #23

Post by JehovahsWitness »

RightReason wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:13 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:08 pm
- Stay loyal to the word of God as expressed in the teachings of Christ. Adopting pagan teaching such as the trinity, the immorality of the soul, eternal torture of the dead in hellfire ect is evidence that a religion has departed from the fundamental teaching of Christ and does not meet Gods standards.
It is the JW’s who invented heretical, unbiblical teachings like soul sleep and deny the clear evidence of Jesus’ divinity in Scripture.
I disagree. Jehovahs Witnesses stick religiously to the inspired word and base all our teachings therein.





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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #24

Post by JehovahsWitness »

RightReason wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:09 pm
... during two world wars and countless conflicts Catholic has killed Catholic on the battle fields in direct defiance of Jesus command to love each other (John 13:35).
All human beings, including JW’s have disobeyed God’s command in loving each other at some point.
Jehovahs Witnesses have taken a firm stand on this issue and have never involved themselves in ANY wars. LOVE is a non-negotiable of the true faith and while German Catholic killed British Catholic in two world wars, it is a matter of historical record, Jehovahs Witnesses refused to raise their hand agains their brothers and sisters in Germany, Japan or Britain.

Jesus said True Christanity could be identified by its love; not by how ruthlessly they kill their enemies while shrugging and saying "nobody's perfect". Which religion have proved by their actions to be what Jesus said he expected?


MATTHEW 5:43-48 - NIV

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #25

Post by William »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #25]
Jehovahs Witnesses have taken a firm stand on this issue and have never involved themselves in ANY wars. LOVE is a non-negotiable of the true faith and while German Catholic killed British Catholic in two world wars, it is a matter of historical record, Jehovahs Witnesses refused to raise their hand agains their brothers and sisters in Germany, Japan or Britain.

Jesus said True Christanity could be identified by its love; not by how ruthlessly they kill their enemies while shrugging and saying "nobody's perfect". Which religion have proved by their actions to be what Jesus said he expected?
While commendable it is noted as well, that there are individuals whom do not need a religion of any sort in which to "do the right thing" and in ranking [since that is essentially what your argument is doing in relation to religions which are NOT "Jehovah Witness"] those who are naturally inclined as to not need a religion to believe in first - before they "do the right thing" - are far closer to The Creator's heart for that.

Also to note that when ones attempt to belittle others in order to make themselves appear so much better than those belittled, and do so by not telling the whole truth, 'tis best to continue to treat such with suspicion...they are likely not whom they claim to be.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #26

Post by RightReason »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:16 pm
This is true. However are you suggesting speading the good news to non-believers and teaching those willing to become disciples of Christ (so the Christian community grows to include an ever greater number of men and women) was to be restricted to a small group of selected men alone?
Did you not read my previous post? I already said we have all been called to spread the Good News and do so in our interactions with people every day, in how we conduct ourselves, in our workplaces, in our families, in being witnesses to the faith. But yes, Christ Himself restricts ordained priesthood to select men. Scripture itself is evidence of this.
Jehovahs Witnesses stick religiously to the inspired word and base all our teachings therein.
I know you think you do, but by whose authority did Charles Taze Russell come up with his New World Translation? Who gave him the authority to add words and to change words?. Jesus told Peter, “Thou art Peter and upon this rock, I build my church”. “Whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven.” “He who hears you, hears me.” Did He say those words to Russell? Jesus promised never to leave His Church, and yet you want us to believe it was hidden until Russell popped on the scene until the 1900’s. Please think about the illogic of that. Russell who started out following some other end times cult until he started his own church where he predicted his own end time that never came to be? This is the guy you think got it right, even though he began in the 1900’s teaching things the early Church did not teach?

Jehovahs Witnesses have taken a firm stand on this issue and have never involved themselves in ANY wars.
Yes, like the Puritans before you, groups come along that like to put greater restrictions or blanket commands than God Himself did and pretend they are the Holy ones for doing so. The Puritans banned drinking and made sex dirty. The Quakers demanded plain clothes and the use of titles.

LOVE is a non-negotiable of the true faith and while German Catholic killed British Catholic in two world wars, it is a matter of historical record, Jehovahs Witnesses refused to raise their hand agains their brothers and sisters in Germany, Japan or Britain.
Yes, the JW’s are known for their draft dodging, as well as their refusal of blood transfusions, and celebrating birthdays. They’ve created their own Russell theology.


All other Christian sects are a reaction against or a splitting off from the Catholic Church. They are always something less than the Catholic Church, never anything more. They lack something, whether it be a pope or a priest or a pronouncement. Whatever partial truth they cling to is something that they have received from the Catholic Church.

https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/cu ... es-it.html
Jesus said True Christanity could be identified by its love; not by how ruthlessly they kill their enemies while shrugging and saying "nobody's perfect".


As G.K. Chesterton once said, “As for the general view that the Church was discredited by the War—they might as well say that the Ark was discredited by the Flood. When the world goes wrong, it proves rather that the Church is right. The Church is justified, not because her children do not sin, but because they do.”

•Even the sins of the Catholic Church are evidence of its truth. Its failures only point to the great value of its precepts. The world cannot abide the Church failing because the world unconsciously knows that the truth it proclaims must be upheld. Chesterton says that the sins of Christianity are one of the doctrines of Christianity. In other words, our sins point to one of our sacraments: confession. He says, "The Church is not justified when her children do not sin, but when they do."

https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/cu ... es-it.html

Which religion have proved by their actions to be what Jesus said he expected?
Hands down the Catholic Church.

The Church is the only consistent defender of morality and virtue. It defends marriage and the family. It defends children and babies and the unborn. It defends the poor. It defends peace and human dignity. It defends order and it also defends freedom. It defends the body and the mind and the soul.


The history of Christianity is the history of the Catholic Church. The Church has not only carried the faith through history, it has carried the whole culture. The monasteries preserved the texts of the ancient world, keeping open our only windows to the past.


History's greatest people, the saints, are Catholic. We too often forget how great they are. They have worked miracles, they have defied unbelievable odds, they have written monumental testimonies of truth, they have had exquisite visions, they have suffered unimaginable hardship with unexplainable joy, they have selflessly served their fellow human beings, caring for the sick and the dying and the outcast with astonishing charity.

https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/cu ... es-it.html


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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #27

Post by Benson »

tam wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 4:31 pm Peace to you,


[Replying to Benson in post #1]

The Church is the Body of Christ, made of people. Christ is the One who calls and chooses us (anointing us with holy spirit, such as when He breathed holy spirit upon the apostles, or again upon the people at Pentecost, or again upon Cornelius and his household). Christ, the cornerstone, is the Head of the Body, His Bride.

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 1 Corinthians 12:27

And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. Ephesians 1:22, 23

And He is the head of the body, the church; Colossians 1:18

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Rev 21:2

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. John 10:16


**


None of the above is describing a religion. The Church is the people in Christ (who is Himself the Head of the Church, which is His Bride, His Body). Christ is the Leader, the Teacher, the Master, the Head and the Husband of the Church (which is His Body, His Bride).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
There is no need to reinvent things here by merely restating what is obvious.

However, God does clearly wish religion to be pursued. True Religion is defined by God in James 1:27. Isn't this good news for us? Yes it is!

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #28

Post by tam »

Peace to you Benson,

[Replying to Benson in post #28]


I'm not sure what you mean when you say religion, but James is not referring to a religion institution/organization. James is referring to actions (caring for the widow and orphans, etc). No religion (religious institution or organization) is 'the true religion'. You might have already understood that. I am just clarifying.

The only One who is the Truth - and who speaks only truth (just as His Father has taught Him) - is Christ. A person. He is the One to whom we are to listen, to follow, to obey.


"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him." Mark 9:7


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #29

Post by JehovahsWitness »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:16 pm .... are you suggesting speading the good news to non-believers and teaching those willing to become disciples of Christ (so the Christian community grows to include an ever greater number of men and women) was to be restricted to a small group of selected men alone?
RightReason wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:25 pm

I already said we have all been called to spread the Good News and do so in our interactions with people every day, in how we conduct ourselves, in our workplaces, in our families, in being witnesses to the faith.
That is not spreading the good news, that is being a good Christian. High morals are a given but Jesus was very specific in his instructions.


MATTHEW 28:19, 20

Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.+ And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

You don't learn maths from a maths teacher by watching how kind she is to her children. Christian conduct is essential of course but Jesus was asking more of his disciples. The main work was that of transmitting information to his listeners. Jesus travelled up and down the length of the country and was known as "Rabbi" because he was first and foremost a transmitter of information by his "winsome words"
Jesus explained the kjngdom, what it is, when it would come and how to become its subject. Jesus spoke about his Father and revealed who He is. Jesus wasn't just sending his followers out to be nice people, he was sending out a trained teaching army and telling them to spread the word by their words. The book of Acts indicates the first century Christians understood their commission.


Which religion is associated with public preaching and teaching of the kingdom in the manner Jesus and the disciples did, face to face on the streets, door to door, searching for those individual members of the public willing to listen and then transmitting information to them?


JEHOVAHS WITNESS


Image


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PUBLIC PREACHING, CHRISTIANITY and ...JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #30

Post by Benson »

RightReason wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:09 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:08 pm With all, due respect all the members of the Catholic church are not active preachers of the Kingdom.
Only those sent by God, were intended to be ordained priests. The Apostles were sent by Jesus, had hands laid upon them, and were told to preach. This apostolate was continued in the early days of the Church. The people knew who had been chosen to speak for the Church. Scripture tells us how the people took their matters to the Church and acknowledged the Church’s authority.


Acts 2:42
And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

James 3:1
Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

Titus 1:3
And at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior;

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,

Matthew 11:5
The blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them.

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

1 Timothy 2:12 ESV / 2 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
Indeed if someone knocked on your door or approached a stranger on the street and said they wanted to speak to them about God's Kingdom, the first reaction would probably not be "Oh you must be a Chtholic!"

Indeed. Because as Catholics, we know we are called to witness to our faith every day, which can be done in the way we conduct our lives, being good neighbors and friends, speaking about God to others in the checkout line at the grocery store, at the neighborhood block party, on the side lines at the soccer game, etc. No need to ring doorbells. There are hundreds of opportunities to spread the Good News! And more productively, I might add.

Catholics have a clergy class that are experienced and trained for public preaching, but Jesus' disciples demonstrated they understood the commission for all his followers be active preacheds and teachers of the good news (Mat 28: 19, 20).
Not quite. See all my Scripture passages above. Also, I already explained how we all can bring Christ to our fellow man. Purchasing and distributing colorful pamphlets not necessary.

History has shown the membership of the catholic church have failed to show brotherly love for their fellow members.
History has shown quite the opposite.

Jesus said LOVE (not apostolstic succession) would be the identifying mark of grue Christians.
He actually spoke about both. It isn’t an either/or.

Yet during two world wars and countless conflicts Catholic has killed Catholic on the battle fields in direct defiance of Jesus command to love each other (John 13:35).
All human beings, including JW’s have disobeyed God’s command in loving each other at some point. We all fall short. God never spoke of a total condemnation of war. Scripture even shows His disciples carried swords.


Also, not all are called to be ordained ministers or missionaries. A culture of witness is sustained within the Church through marriage and the family and our ordinary lives. We are all sons and daughters of Christ and can bring our faith and teach others about God in the workforce and in our own families. This is yet one more thing the JW’s don’t fully understand.

Beautiful words about Christ’s Church and what we as members are all called to:


It is therefore primarily by her conduct and by her life that the Church will evangelize the world, in other words, by her living witness of fidelity to the Lord Jesus - the witness of poverty and detachment, of freedom in the face of the powers of this world, in short, the witness of sanctity.32


The New Evangelization does not seek to invite people to experience only one moment of conversion but rather to experience the gradual and lifelong process of conversion: to draw all people into a deeper relationship with God, to participate in the sacramental life of the Church, to develop a mature conscience, to sustain one’s faith through ongoing catechesis, and to integrate one’s faith into all aspects of one’s life. 34 The process of conversion and evangelization that accomplishes the objectives above must include the witness of the Church through her members in the everyday living out of the Gospel.

https://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teach ... of-witness
So, What is your Truth based belief about Jesus Christ? Who is He?

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