Today's Excellent Church.

[Benson]

Acts 2 gives the narrative of how the Body of Christ His Church was brought into being by the coming of The Holy Spirit, according to Joel ch. 2 as cited by Apostle Peter.

Today, there are no features within modern Christendom which are a continuation of either Acts ch. 2, Joel ch. 2, The Jerusalem Messianic Church, or the Pauline Gentile Church.

This post remains very short because there is no other information in Scripture to authenticate the state of today's so called "Church." If one thinks the Church does exist today according to the foundation of the Apostles with Christ as the Cornerstone, tell us where on Earth it exists in the hearts of Men before God. No place in Paul's teaching says the Church is some intangibly perceived group of minds set upon faith in Christ.

[RightReason]

That is not spreading the good news, that is being a good Christian. High morals are a given but Jesus was very specific in his instructions.

MATTHEW 28:19, 20

Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.+ And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

I couldn’t disagree more. Exactly what I described is far more efficacious teaching then to go door to door preaching. The best way people learn is by example. Typically you can’t lecture/preach someone into the faith. It is precisely showing others how you observe all that God has commanded in the course of your daily life that will attract them to the faith.

You don't learn maths from a maths teacher by watching how kind she is to her children.

And you won’t teach a person math by going door to door and shouting equations at them.

Christian conduct is essential of course but Jesus was asking more of his disciples. The main work was that of transmitting information to his listeners.

Yes, which is why He established His Church, which has spread His message to every continent on the planet, before JW’s even existed. Catholics have daily mass to perpetually teach her children. I’d call that quite a bit of transmitting of information.

Jesus explained the kjngdom, what it is, when it would come and how to become its subject.

You mean exactly like His Church does today.

Jesus spoke about his Father and revealed who He is. Jesus wasn't just sending his followers out to be nice people

Straw man. I never said any such thing. You are talking about the wrong person if you think I’m all about just being a “nice” person. That’s not at all what I said. Others will know my faith when they observe me living it. And that does not simply mean observing me be nice. They will see that for our family faith comes first. We do not hide that we attend daily mass, confession, bible classes, retreats, etc. I can pretty much add my Catholic faith into any conversation and quite naturally I might add. Again, I have many opportunities every day to teach the Gospel.

Which religion is associated with public preaching and teaching of the kingdom in the manner Jesus and the disciples did, face to face on the streets, door to door, searching for those individual members of the public willing to listen and then transmitting information to them?

Again, the Catholic Church. It is the Church whose missionaries spand the globe. It is the Church who took the message to the streets long before the JW’s got to use the help of the invention of the printing press. And it is Catholics today who preach and teach by living their faith in a visible way on a daily basis.

[RightReason]

So, What is your Truth based belief about Jesus Christ? Who is He?

Jesus is God incarnate. He is true God and true man. He is both fully human and fully divine.

[Benson]

So, What is your Truth based belief about Jesus Christ? Who is He?

Jesus is God incarnate. He is true God and true man. He is both fully human and fully divine.

Excellent. Pity the souls who will try to tell Jesus otherwise.

[Benson]

That is not spreading the good news, that is being a good Christian. High morals are a given but Jesus was very specific in his instructions.

MATTHEW 28:19, 20

Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.+ And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

I couldn’t disagree more. Exactly what I described is far more efficacious teaching then to go door to door preaching. The best way people learn is by example. Typically you can’t lecture/preach someone into the faith. It is precisely showing others how you observe all that God has commanded in the course of your daily life that will attract them to the faith.

You don't learn maths from a maths teacher by watching how kind she is to her children.

And you won’t teach a person math by going door to door and shouting equations at them.

Christian conduct is essential of course but Jesus was asking more of his disciples. The main work was that of transmitting information to his listeners.

Yes, which is why He established His Church, which has spread His message to every continent on the planet, before JW’s even existed. Catholics have daily mass to perpetually teach her children. I’d call that quite a bit of transmitting of information.

Jesus explained the kjngdom, what it is, when it would come and how to become its subject.

You mean exactly like His Church does today.

Jesus spoke about his Father and revealed who He is. Jesus wasn't just sending his followers out to be nice people

Straw man. I never said any such thing. You are talking about the wrong person if you think I’m all about just being a “nice” person. That’s not at all what I said. Others will know my faith when they observe me living it. And that does not simply mean observing me be nice. They will see that for our family faith comes first. We do not hide that we attend daily mass, confession, bible classes, retreats, etc. I can pretty much add my Catholic faith into any conversation and quite naturally I might add. Again, I have many opportunities every day to teach the Gospel.

Which religion is associated with public preaching and teaching of the kingdom in the manner Jesus and the disciples did, face to face on the streets, door to door, searching for those individual members of the public willing to listen and then transmitting information to them?

Again, the Catholic Church. It is the Church whose missionaries spand the globe. It is the Church who took the message to the streets long before the JW’s got to use the help of the invention of the printing press. And it is Catholics today who preach and teach by living their faith in a visible way on a daily basis.

It is the Catholic Church which slaughtered millions in their inquisition and imperialist warfare, whose leader claims to be both the "Father" and "the vicar of Christ," which has plundered its people for untold billions of dollars, which has burned people at the stake for disagreements, which presumes to appoint kings, which operates the filthy and destructive Jesuit Order, which deifies Mary, which mixes occultism with the Name of Christ, which has a building shaped in the form of a serpent's head, which adorns it's church buildings with demonology and occult symbols, and which presumes to rule the physical world.

The Catholic Church is filth.

[RightReason]

. . . rialist warfare, whose leader claims to be both the "Father" and "the vicar of Christ," which has plundered its people for untold billions of dollars, which has burned people at the stake for disagreements, which presumes to appoint kings, which operates the filthy and destructive Jesuit Order, which deifies Mary, which mixes occultism with the Name of Christ, which has a building shaped in the form of a serpent's head, which adorns it's church buildings with demonology and occult symbols, and which presumes to rule the physical world.

The Catholic Church is filth.

Ha, ha, ha . . . I think you have bought into some serious anti-Catholic propaganda. Many within the Church have done some terrible things, but regardless of fallible human beings (whom God always seems to use), Jesus promised He would remain with His Church. And so He has. As your post just above this one agrees, the Church continues to get it right on matters of faith. As it is Christ’s established Church, the Catholic Church (Peter was the first Pope) who has been entrusted to safeguard Truth. She cannot err in that sense. Of course, many that even God and Jesus Himself appointed screwed up big time, but that did not prevent God from giving ordinary human authority. “He who hears you, hears me . . . “


“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

[2timothy316]

She also decided the Canon of the Bible your founder used to create his New World Translation in the late 1800’s.

This is false. The books were already known as scripture before they put it together. It was already decided for them. The Jews already had the Hebrew scriptures, the Gospels and the letters to the congregations were already called scripture before their writers died. The only thing that the Catholics did was bind it all together. They deserve no medal for this.

It is true. There were many, many gospel writings and letters that did not make the cut. The Church established by Jesus Christ had the authority, guided by the Holy Spirit, to determine which writings made it and which didn’t. And again the JW’s were a little late to the scene, not existing until almost the 1900’s. History alone disqualifies them.

The once Protestant, eventually Catholic convert, John Henry Newman said, "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant."

More than half the Bible was already chosen by the late 1st century. The Hebrew Scriptures were determined by the Jews before the Catholics came along and decided that they wanted to put the Apocrypha in with the Hebrew Scriptures. The Jews didn't add the Apocrypha to their Bible. The Greek Scriptures were already being passed around as scriptures before the term Catholic existed. It wasn't until after the death of all of the apostles that apostate books started showing up. Called Gnosticism, they claimed to have a secret knowledge. To cut through that trash all that had to be done was test them verses the writings that were already considered canon. Catholics paint themselves as some sort of hero but they were not. They were new to the party in the 2nd century and they messed up a lot of things. They actually did more damage to the Bible than anyone else by putting it into a dead language and adding books that even the Jews didn't add.

[RightReason]

More than half the Bible was already chosen by the late 1st century. The Hebrew Scriptures were determined by the Jews before the Catholics came along and decided that they wanted to put the Apocrypha in with the Hebrew Scriptures. The Jews didn't add the Apocrypha to their Bible. The Greek Scriptures were already being passed around as scriptures before the term Catholic existed. It wasn't until after the death of all of the apostles that apostate books started showing up. Called Gnosticism, they claimed to have a secret knowledge. To cut through that trash all that had to be done was test them verses the writings that were already considered canon. Catholics paint themselves as some sort of hero but they were not. They were new to the party in the 2nd century and they messed up a lot of things. They actually did more damage to the Bible than anyone else by putting it into a dead language and adding books that even the Jews didn't add.

2timothy, do you think the gospels fell from the sky? And let’s say instead of instructing ordinary men to write the gospels, God just dropped the writings from the sky. They would still need to be interpreted, right? I’m sure you would agree, there have been quite a few sincere Christians who all read the exact same Scripture, and come to different conclusions. How might God have prevented such a thing? Could it be He established a One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, and Authoritative Church as a voice on earth so we could be sure we were getting it right? Christ’s established Church, with Peter being the first Pope, had that authority. JW’s were long to have yet come on the scene.

The Church, in her wisdom, put the Bible into a dead language precisely because it is a dead language. Otherwise, languages change and evolve. Words take on different meanings. The Church did this precisely so that people like your founder couldn’t come years and years later and say the words mean something different, depending on what language or translation one chose. Russell had no authority or right to change Sacred Scripture. And he did so with the sole purpose of getting it to fit his personal pre existing theology. To allow Scripture to remain as written contradicts JW teaching and he knew that. In fact, JW's had to continually change their teachings through the years when it is discovered a passage from the Bible contradicts their invented theology. It doesn't work that way.

[2timothy316]

More than half the Bible was already chosen by the late 1st century. The Hebrew Scriptures were determined by the Jews before the Catholics came along and decided that they wanted to put the Apocrypha in with the Hebrew Scriptures. The Jews didn't add the Apocrypha to their Bible. The Greek Scriptures were already being passed around as scriptures before the term Catholic existed. It wasn't until after the death of all of the apostles that apostate books started showing up. Called Gnosticism, they claimed to have a secret knowledge. To cut through that trash all that had to be done was test them verses the writings that were already considered canon. Catholics paint themselves as some sort of hero but they were not. They were new to the party in the 2nd century and they messed up a lot of things. They actually did more damage to the Bible than anyone else by putting it into a dead language and adding books that even the Jews didn't add.

2timothy, do you think the gospels fell from the sky?

No. They were written by men who where visited by angels, had visions and dream who also had the spirit of Jehovah God on them.

And let’s say instead of instructing ordinary men to write the gospels, God just dropped the writings from the sky. They would still need to be interpreted, right? I’m sure you would agree, there have been quite a few sincere Christians who all read the exact same Scripture, and come to different conclusions.

I do not agree. Even if a person doesn't have access to the true religion I have read experiences where people came up with the right interpretation. Issac Newton was one of them.

How might God have prevented such a thing? Could it be He established a One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, and Authoritative Church as a voice on earth so we could be sure we were getting it right?

He did but then He let it go so that the wheat and the weeds could grow together. They were even starting to show up in John's day and they did not treat the flock with tenderness. No they burned people at the stake, had them ripped apart by horses. and many other horrible deaths. (1 John 2:18, 19; Matthew 13:36-43; Acts 20:29, 30; 2 Peter 2:1, 2)

Christ’s established Church, with Peter being the first Pope, had that authority. JW’s were long to have yet come on the scene.

Catholic doctrine is new to God's scene. True worship doesn't follow a religion's name. Even if the JWs were forced to disbanned today, I would not run to Catholicism as the way they treated people for hundreds of years is disgusting. I will have no part of that.

The Church, in her wisdom, put the Bible into a dead language precisely because it is a dead language. Otherwise, languages change and evolve. Words take on different meanings. The Church did this precisely so that people like your founder couldn’t come years and years later and say the words mean something different, depending on what language or translation one chose. Russell had no authority or right to change Sacred Scripture.

There was nothing changed. Did you know that one of the Bible translations that we Witnesses used for our English translation? The American Standard Version of 1911. Which was a good translation. Then Catholics changed sacred scripture to the New American Bible. Following the other Bible translations that removed God's name and replaced it with titles. One of the only things Catholics had that was halfway decent, of course they had to ruin it.

Yep, languages do change and evolve and you're saying those early Catholics thought that the Almighty God couldn't keep up. Typical faithlessness. Relaying on themselves and not on the mighty arm of God. It was however the mighty hand of God that broke the Catholic monopoly on the Bible so that true worship can be restored before the time of the end. It is now the most translated book of all time. It seems God can keep up better those faithless people thought.

[RightReason]

I do not agree. Even if a person doesn't have access to the true religion I have read experiences where people came up with the right interpretation.

Yes, and many more examples of where they do not come up with the right interpretation. You do not agree that we have thousands of different Christian denominations today all teaching different things?

He did but then He let it go so that the wheat and the weeds could grow together.

True worship doesn't follow a religion's name.

You mean like Russellites?

Russell was baptized a Congregationalist, and was raised in a strict Protestant family. His later study of the Bible led him to deny the existence of hell and the doctrine of the Trinity, and to express Arian views concerning the nature of Jesus Christ, denying His divinity. In 1879, Russell founded the journal The Watchtower and in 1884 formed the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. He traveled on preaching missions throughout the United States and Europe, organizing his followers, who were called Russellites, Millennial Dawnists, International Bible Students, and finally Jehovah Witnesses.

During his missionary work, he faced several scandals including the separation from his wife after eighteen years of marriage, and the accusation of fraud for selling “miracle wheat” for a very high price.

According to the Jehovah Witnesses, there is one God, and since 1931, they have insisted that he be called “Jehovah,” a corruption in the pronunciation of the Hebrew Yahweh which occurred about the third century BC which was carried into the King James Bible’s translation of Yahweh in Exodus 6:3

They are only allowed to use their own translation of the Bible and other official publications. Unfortunately, many purposeful mistranslations exist in their version to support their tenets. For example, in the New Testament, Lord is translated Jehovah except where it refers directly to Christ. In the Last Supper account, they translate, “Take, eat. This is my body.” to “Take, eat. This means my body.” To affirm that Jesus was created, they add to Colossians 1:16, “By means of Him, everything was created…,” the word other: “By means of him, all other things were created in the heaven and upon the earth…. All other things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all other things and by means of him all other things were made to exist.”


Russell said that Armageddon could not happen later than 1914. (He had given specific dates and times on three earlier occasions, but was wrong.) From 1920, Rutherford proclaimed that “millions now living will never die”; he also expected the “princes of old”– Abraham, Isaac, and the others– to come back to life by 1925 as rulers over the New World. After so many mistaken predictions, the Watch Tower Society of the mid-20th century no longer specified an exact date for all of this to happen.

https://catholicstraightanswers.com/who ... y-believe/


What the average Jehovah's Witness probably doesn't know is that the New World Translation was produced by a committee of five high-up Witnesses, four of whom had no training in biblical languages. The fifth studied Greek for only two years in college. Any reasonable person would conclude that such "translators" are woefully lacking the education and skills needed for such an important task as translating Scripture.

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture ... ecnum=4678

Please watch this if you get a chance. A Jehovah's Witness Who Became Catholic
You can put it on double speed if you want. There is even an interesting Q&A at the end. I will pray for you.

[2timothy316]

I do not agree. Even if a person doesn't have access to the true religion I have read experiences where people came up with the right interpretation.

Yes, and many more examples of where they do not come up with the right interpretation. You do not agree that we have thousands of different Christian denominations today all teaching different things?

He did but then He let it go so that the wheat and the weeds could grow together.

True worship doesn't follow a religion's name.

You mean like Russellites?

He followed true worship, it didn't follow him. Those that did follow him fell away and that is why one should never follow a religion. Follow God then follow Him to the religion that He brings you to. If they stop following God's commandments then get of her or share in her plaques.

You got videos, I have videos.
Michael Lemoine Was Catholic and now a Jehovah's Witness.
https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#e ... 07_2_VIDEO