Today's Excellent Church.

[Benson]

Acts 2 gives the narrative of how the Body of Christ His Church was brought into being by the coming of The Holy Spirit, according to Joel ch. 2 as cited by Apostle Peter.

Today, there are no features within modern Christendom which are a continuation of either Acts ch. 2, Joel ch. 2, The Jerusalem Messianic Church, or the Pauline Gentile Church.

This post remains very short because there is no other information in Scripture to authenticate the state of today's so called "Church." If one thinks the Church does exist today according to the foundation of the Apostles with Christ as the Cornerstone, tell us where on Earth it exists in the hearts of Men before God. No place in Paul's teaching says the Church is some intangibly perceived group of minds set upon faith in Christ.

[JehovahsWitness]

Jehovahs organisation =

JEHOVAH
°°°|°°°
Jesus (+ BRIDE since 1914)
°°°|°°°
The faithful Angels
°°°|°°°
Lone Christian (that just posts on religious debate forums) <===== : EARTHLY PART OF GODS ORGANISATION

(and the Christian would be part of the Bride; so not a 'lone' person at all)

So that one Christian would be the earthly part of the bride: Ergo the "earthly part of Gods organisation".

Really, I cannot understand why it is so difficult to get someone claiming to be a Christian to admit that while on earth a Christian is by definition part of a body of individuals all united under Christ's headship and in turn a part of God's organisation.

I understand if you are perhaps unaware that the True God is a God of ORDER. And I understand you not being aware what the word organisation (or religion ) actually mean... but claiming not to be alone and at the same time denying that while on earth a Christian is parts of a body of belivers is contradictory

Claiming to be part of the body of Christ but only needing the head is downright unscriptural.

1 CORINTHIANS 12: 20-22

As it is, there are many parts, but one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you.” Nor can the head say to the feet, “I do not need you.” On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,

JW

[tam]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #242]

Peace to you,

I'm go further. Say for the sake of argument somebody says, I dont need a religion, I just communicated direct with Jesus. That would amount to...

Jehovahs organisation =

JEHOVAH
°°°|°°°
Jesus (+ BRIDE since 1914)
°°°|°°°
The faithful Angels
°°°|°°°
Lone Christian (that just posts on religious debate forums) <===== : EARTHLY PART OF GODS ORGANISATION

(and the Christian would be part of the Bride; so not a 'lone' person at all)

Indeed, and the Christian would be living where while he or she is being part of the bride?

If still alive, then on the earth. If not alive, then asleep under the altar. Rev 6:10

And would that christian be alone on the earth or part of a body of other humans who are also part of the bride?

A Christian is never alone because of Christ. But yes, Christians are members of the Body of Christ.

I cannot understand why it is so difficult to get someone claiming to be a Christian to admit that while on earth they are part of a body of people all united under Christ's headship.

I have never denied that. On earth or not, a Christian is a member of the Body of Christ, with Christ as their Head. Each of them has Christ as their head, Christ as their Teacher, Christ as their mediator, Christ as their Leader. There is no one between them and Christ. They are themselves in Christ.


That being said, your religion does not claim that all (or even most) Christians are part of the Body of Christ; the Bride; the Church. Your religion states that only some Christians are part of that Body/Bride/Church, and the rest of you are not part of that Body/Bride/Church. But that is not what Christ teaches; that is not what the apostles taught; that is not even written in the bible.

I understand you are perhaps unaware that the True God is a God of ORDER. And I understand not being aware what the word organisation (or religion ) actually mean...but claiming not to be alone and at the same time denying that while on earth all believers are united with other like minded worshippers and their spiritual life depends on remaing attached to the source of life is a puzzling.

The source being Christ. He Himself.

Claiming to be part of a body but only needing the head is downright unscriptural.


1 CORINTHIANS 12: 20-22

As it is, there are many parts, but one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you.” Nor can the head say to the feet, “I do not need you.” On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,

Each member of the Body serves a purpose, and is given the gift that the Spirit (Christ) determines, yes.

One does not need religion, however, in order to come to Christ, listen to Christ, belong to Christ, learn from Christ, to do the will of God, to be led into all truth (or to be given eternal life). Religion cannot grant one eternal life. Religion cannot lead one into all truth. No religion is the Truth.


Peace again to you.

[2timothy316]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

I can only say that being in a religious organization is not the same thing as entering through the Gate and being on the road to life (which few find).

There it is. I knew you understood. You finally got what JW and I have been saying. It's just your anti-religion beliefs are clouding good reasoning and want to push your anti-religion views which in the grand scheme doesn't matter to your argument.

I know that is what you claim to be saying. But that is not what the quotes said (from your religion).

You want to say it so bad what you want it to say, that you've cherry picked a line out of context to get it to say what you want it to say. One line out of an 18 paragraph article.

It says what it says. I did not change a single word of the quote you posted (unlike what you did). I do not see how anything has been taken out of context or how you have even shown that it has been taken out of context.

Then you said what you said. I prefaced my thought and then I removed one word of yours to get your words to support my thought. You prefaced a line in the article with what you believe we think of ourselves and then you removed 18 paragraphs.

Here's a paragraph that you didn't add from the same article. We name what is the Ark is today that saves people.

Faith Required for Survival [Note it doesn't say Jehovah's Witnesses]
On the other hand, Noah and his family recognized their need for protection and deliverance. They also exercised faith in the Universal Sovereign, Jehovah God. “Without faith it is impossible to please [Jehovah] well,” wrote the apostle Paul, “for he that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.” Paul added: “By faith Noah, after being given divine warning of things not yet beheld, showed godly fear and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; and through this faith he condemned the world, and he became an heir of the righteousness that is according to faith.”"

You read as far down in the article to get what you needed. Why? Because you only where looking for something to prove your point and didn't care what the rest of the article was about. Please stop doing that!

[2timothy316]

Claiming to be part of the body of Christ but only needing the head is downright unscriptural.

1 CORINTHIANS 12: 20-22

As it is, there are many parts, but one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you.” Nor can the head say to the feet, “I do not need you.” On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,

Tam doesn't believe the Bible to be the only source of truth. She has dreams or hears things...I'm not sure actually but clearly the Bible is not her top source of divine revelation. She claims it is given directly to her. What information she claims to get overrides 1 Cor 12:20-22. Though she can't prove this.

Scripture is absolutely not the sole source of divine revelation.

[JehovahsWitness]

... Christians are members of the Body of Christ.

So what exactly is your gripe? You don't think a body is organised with each members doing his or her part for the fonction of the whole? Or do you NOT know what an organisation is?

ORGANISATION

... one or more people and having a particular purpose
source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization

Whether you know to think about what you believe or not, I am here to inform you from what you said, you also believe YOU are part of the earthly part of Gods organisation; , so how can you criticism others for believing the same thing as you do? Where you so shocked because you never analysed what it means to be part of the church of Christ ?


No need to thank us,



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[2timothy316]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #246]

I'd be interested to know if Tam and others that believe as she does thinks that all those that are in a religion are excluded from the body of Christ.
Are Witnesses, Catholics, Baptist, Mormon etc not part of the body of Christ because they are in a religion? If there are no exclusions and everyone can be included into the body of Christ, then what exactly is the broad that leads off to destruction and who are the majority on it? Or does she think that anyone in a religion is on the broad road? From her hate toward religion I feel like she and others like her think that religion is the broad road to destruction.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

I can only say that being in a religious organization is not the same thing as entering through the Gate and being on the road to life (which few find).

There it is. I knew you understood. You finally got what JW and I have been saying. It's just your anti-religion beliefs are clouding good reasoning and want to push your anti-religion views which in the grand scheme doesn't matter to your argument.

I know that is what you claim to be saying. But that is not what the quotes said (from your religion).

You want to say it so bad what you want it to say, that you've cherry picked a line out of context to get it to say what you want it to say. One line out of an 18 paragraph article.

It says what it says. I did not change a single word of the quote you posted (unlike what you did). I do not see how anything has been taken out of context or how you have even shown that it has been taken out of context.

Then you said what you said. I prefaced my thought and then I removed one word of yours to get your words to support my thought. You prefaced a line in the article with what you believe we think of ourselves and then you removed 18 paragraphs.

I simply quoted a line in the article that states faith is needed AND one other thing:

".... survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization."

Then there are also the quotes comparing your religion to the road, though you do not see that it is doing this. But I did not supply just a partial quote there; I commented on the sole quote that you provided. Then found a couple more.


I also added an explanation to my previous post (in case that was missed):

Please note that you had to change my actual sentence - the actual quote - to make me sound as if I was saying something I was not.

I did not do that to any of the quotes that you supplied.

I know what you claim to believe. But what you claim to believe does not match up with what the writings that have been supplied. I would never believe what someone says about their religion, over what that religion says itself. Many people do not know (or do not acknowledge) what their religion teaches, as I am sure you know.

Many years ago I did a bible study (for two years) with two dear ladies from your religion. They were both sincere (as are many others in many other religions - sincerity does not mean truth). But I would never have just taken their word on anything. I asked many questions, I had multiple books brought to me (insight to the scriptures, the grand climax at hand, and of course that first book 'what does the bible really teach', some various magazines, even the ones that were - at the time - only meant for jws to read). I was not going to join something without making sure I knew all the teachings; no secrets surprises later (frog in boiling water analogy). Because the public face of something is so often NOT the same as what happens behind closed doors. That can include teachings; even genuine beliefs.


So if you (general you) say one thing, but your religious literature says another thing, I'm going to go by what the literature says as being representative of what the religion actually teaches. Because that is what the religion is putting out. The people in the religion might believe something different; they might be in denial about what the religion actually teaches; they might be blind themselves. Some people in religion (any religion) - if and when they come out of that religion - can wonder how they could have ever missed those things to begin with.


**

Since then, I know from my Lord that there is no true religion. There is only the Truth: He, Himself.





Peace again to you.

[2timothy316]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

I can only say that being in a religious organization is not the same thing as entering through the Gate and being on the road to life (which few find).

There it is. I knew you understood. You finally got what JW and I have been saying. It's just your anti-religion beliefs are clouding good reasoning and want to push your anti-religion views which in the grand scheme doesn't matter to your argument.

I know that is what you claim to be saying. But that is not what the quotes said (from your religion).

You want to say it so bad what you want it to say, that you've cherry picked a line out of context to get it to say what you want it to say. One line out of an 18 paragraph article.

It says what it says. I did not change a single word of the quote you posted (unlike what you did). I do not see how anything has been taken out of context or how you have even shown that it has been taken out of context.

Then you said what you said. I prefaced my thought and then I removed one word of yours to get your words to support my thought. You prefaced a line in the article with what you believe we think of ourselves and then you removed 18 paragraphs.

I simply quoted a line in the article that states faith is needed AND one other thing:

".... survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization."

But that doesn't make the organization the Ark. This was your point was it not? Haven't we shown you that God's people are not the Ark?

What it means you need an Ark which Noah built out of faith, and you need to be in the group on it. This is not rocket science or a mysterious riddle. An Ark with no people on it doesn't do anything for anyone. If a person knows where the Ark is and they are not part of the group getting on it, then they drown. It's that simple. Being part of the group IS important. That's the part you hate and I get that. But that doesn't make the people the Ark as you claim. People that just belief the same thing alone is not enough.

Please note that you had to change my actual sentence - the actual quote - to make me sound as if I was saying something I was not.

Please note that the line you quoted doesn't say word for word that God's organization is the Ark. You keep prefacing the quote with your assertion. Yet in a later paragraph we point that Noah build the Ark out of faith. But you leave that part out. I left out a word you leave out entire paragraphs.

I know what you claim to believe.

Yet you don't care. So that allows me the freedom to cherry pick what you write and ignore what you claim to believe. I will omit whatever I want make up what I want you to believe. That is what you're doing to us, so one good turn... right?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #246]

I'd be interested to know if Tam and others that believe as she does thinks that all those that are in a religion are excluded from the body of Christ.

Doesn't your religion teach her members that the majority of you are not in the Body of Christ (which is the Church, the Bride, the New Jerusalem/Holy City: see 1 Corinth 12:22; Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18; Ephesians 5:23-32; Rev 21:2)?




Peace again.

[2timothy316]

Peace to you,

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #246]

I'd be interested to know if Tam and others that believe as she does thinks that all those that are in a religion are excluded from the body of Christ.

Doesn't your religion teach her members that the majority of you are not in the Body of Christ (which is the Church, the Bride, the New Jerusalem/Holy City: see 1 Corinth 12:22; Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18; Ephesians 5:23-32; Rev 21:2)?

Or you could answer my question. I know what my religion believes, I don't need to know that. I want to know what people like you that hate religion so much think is going to happen to people in a religion. Are they all on the road to life? Some? None? I'd like for you to stop telling me what I believe and start telling me what do you believe? If you can. Or are you too high answer the questions of us lowly religious folks?