Today's Excellent Church.

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Benson
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Today's Excellent Church.

Post #1

Post by Benson »

Acts 2 gives the narrative of how the Body of Christ His Church was brought into being by the coming of The Holy Spirit, according to Joel ch. 2 as cited by Apostle Peter.

Today, there are no features within modern Christendom which are a continuation of either Acts ch. 2, Joel ch. 2, The Jerusalem Messianic Church, or the Pauline Gentile Church.

This post remains very short because there is no other information in Scripture to authenticate the state of today's so called "Church." If one thinks the Church does exist today according to the foundation of the Apostles with Christ as the Cornerstone, tell us where on Earth it exists in the hearts of Men before God. No place in Paul's teaching says the Church is some intangibly perceived group of minds set upon faith in Christ.

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tam
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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #231

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
2timothy316 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:58 pm
tam wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 4:38 pm Peace to you,

During the final period of the “ancient world” that perished in the Flood, Noah was a faithful “preacher of righteousness.” (2 Peter 2:5) In these last days of the present system of things, Jehovah’s people are making known God’s righteous standards and are declaring good news about the possibility of surviving into the new world. (2 Peter 3:9-13) Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization. w06 5/15 p. 22-23

That one was 2006, and it is comparing people in the JW organization to Noah and his family on the ark.
Please be sure to address the question at the bottom of my reply.

The article is accurate. Yet you're missing the point of the whole article by only focusing on one line.
Actually, I think that you (and jw) are missing the point. For some reason jw seems to think that I am the person who brought up blasphemy. I did not. I just compared your statement regarding the RCC being blasphemous (due to her claims) to similar claims being made by the WTS/JW religion. If the claims of one are blasphemous, then should you not also think that similar claims by the other also be blasphemous?
Again, we are not a comparing ourselves to the Ark as you want to see.
It has nothing to do with what I want to see or not. But there does seem to be a comparison being made about preservation in the ark and preservation depending upon "loyal association with the earthly part of "Jehovah's universal organization":

Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization.

I accept that you do not claim that the JW religion is like an ark. If that is the case though, then one does not need to be associated with the JW religion in order to survive or to have life, correct?

One would only need to be in Christ (the actual Ark). Right?
So allow me to reveal your motives for your argument.
I had more of a question than an argument, and I explained my motive at the top of this post.

For the sake of this debate, let's say their is no named group of God's people.
Sure, but I never claimed that there is no 'name', just that there is no religious organization.

The people who belong to Christ (and so also belong to His Father) are Christian (anointed ones); also called the Body of Christ; the Church; the Bride. The one to whom we are to listen (and bear witness to) is Christ.
You certainly believe you're on the road to life right? If you believe so, you do understand that like Noah, even though there might just be, one two or even just 8 of you scattered around the Earth, that would place you in God's organization?
Okay so I had to ask about this one (your first question), so lets look at the passage:

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

The Gate is Christ. (see John 10:7-9) His sheep enter through Him (the gate). Though only few find the road (or Way), we enter through Christ. So yes, (though not because I am anything good or special, but because my Lord called me, and my Father in heaven drew me to Him. I am not deserving, but here I am, on the love and mercy and undeserved kindness of JAH and His Son, Jaheshua. Praise JAH!)

But "God's organization" is your term, not mine, and it just seems to be a way of saying 'religion' without saying 'religion'.

I can only say that being in a religious organization is not the same thing as entering through the Gate and being on the road to life (which few find).

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #232

Post by 2timothy316 »

tam wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:41 pm
I can only say that being in a religious organization is not the same thing as entering through the Gate and being on the road to life (which few find).
There it is. I knew you understood. You finally got what JW and I have been saying. It's just your anti-religion beliefs are clouding good reasoning and want to push your anti-religion views which in the grand scheme doesn't matter to your argument.

If you and another person go through the gate, you and them were organized to do so. Why?
Because the gate and the road is not a religion but a way of living. The definition of organized is "arranged in a systematic way". Your way of living is "arranged in a systematic way" is it not? If one other person is following that that life "arranged in a systematic way" that makes you part of an organization. Certainly you don't think you're the only one going through the gate leading to life right? It means whether you want to be or not, you're part of a group organized to live a certain way despite you feeling separate from everyone else. Why? Because you will enter the gate together as a group no matter what you claim to be.

However, what JW and I believe but you don't is that we believe that we are not to forsake meeting together and we have an answer when Jesus asked, 'who is the faithful and discreet slave'. While those that believe as you do, do forsake meeting together and I have know idea what you answer is to Jesus' question, "who is the faithful and discreet slave".

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #233

Post by 2timothy316 »

tam wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:41 pm
But "God's organization" is your term, not mine, and it just seems to be a way of saying 'religion' without saying 'religion'.
For what I gather from your posts you don't like any term that groups people together. This is based on your beliefs, I get it. I don't accept it but I get it. You've made your point but I don't agree with it.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #234

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
2timothy316 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 6:43 pm
tam wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:41 pm
I can only say that being in a religious organization is not the same thing as entering through the Gate and being on the road to life (which few find).
There it is. I knew you understood. You finally got what JW and I have been saying. It's just your anti-religion beliefs are clouding good reasoning and want to push your anti-religion views which in the grand scheme doesn't matter to your argument.
I know that is what you claim to be saying. But that is not what the quotes said (from your religion).

If you and another person go through the gate, you and them were organized to do so. Why? Because the gate and the road is not a religion but a way of living.
No, the Gate is Christ. John 10:7-9

We enter through Christ (the Gate), and follow and listen to Him (and to His voice), keeping our eyes and our ears toward Him, obeying His commands. Out of love (the One who loves me is the One who obeys my commands).

However, what JW and I believe but you don't is that we believe that we are not to forsake meeting together and we have an answer when Jesus asked, 'who is the faithful and discreet slave'.
Having a response to something does not mean that response is accurate. The (erroneous) claim that the GB is the faithful and discreet slave is yet another comparison with which your religion has with the RCC, because while the GB of your religion claims to be the faithful and discreet slave dispensing spiritual food; the RCC claims the 'pope' is the one feeding the sheep. So I am going to assume you must not find it blasphemous for the RCC to claim that the 'pope' is Christ's spokesman on earth, since the WTS makes that same claim about the GB (claiming it to be God's channel of communication on earth).

(Christ is the One feeding His sheep spiritual food. He speaks to His sheep Himself. His sheep listen to His voice.)



Peace again to you.
Last edited by tam on Sun May 16, 2021 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #235

Post by tam »

2timothy316 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 6:57 pm
tam wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:41 pm
But "God's organization" is your term, not mine, and it just seems to be a way of saying 'religion' without saying 'religion'.
For what I gather from your posts you don't like any term that groups people together. This is based on your beliefs, I get it. I don't accept it but I get it. You've made your point but I don't agree with it.
That's not true. I explained what I meant in the very post that you are quoting (my objection was to religion). I have no problem with terms that group people together. Such as the Church (the Body of Christ); the Bride. Those are terms that encompass many people; the people who are in Christ.



Peace again to you.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #236

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:37 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:58 pm

For the sake of this debate, let's say their is no named group of God's people. You certainly believe you're on the road to life right? If you believe so, you do understand that like Noah, even though there might just be, one two or even just 8 of you scattered around the Earth, that would place you in God's organization?
I'm go further. Say for the sake of argument somebody says, I dont need a religion, I just communicated direct with Jesus. That would amount to...

Jehovahs organisation =
JEHOVAH
°°°|°°°
Jesus (+ BRIDE since 1914)
°°°|°°°
The faithful Angels
°°°|°°°
Lone Christian (that just posts on religious debate forums) <===== : EARTHLY PART OF GODS ORGANISATION
No that would amount to a sheep listening to the voice of their Shepherd (Jaheshua).

Simple.

(and the Christian would be part of the Bride; so not a 'lone' person at all)

The only way that lone (I-don't-need-a-religion-I-only-need-Jesus) "christian" can get salvation is stay in the "earthly part of Gods organisation";


That doesn't make any sense. That Christian (same as any other Christian) gets salvation through Christ.

You're adding a step (or two or three).


and the only way it STAYS "the earthly part of Gods organisation" is by staying connected to Jesus. It is irrelevant if there is one, eight or 8 million.
You're adding 'the earthly part of God's organization'.

One need only remain in Christ.

The person that objects to being in "earthly part of Gods organisation" is simply denying the body of Christ, the faithful angels and ultimately the one that they all unite to worship. Did somebody mention blasphemy a little earlier?
That is quite a stretch.

Not being a part of a religion in absolutely no way denies Christ (or His Body, of which He is the Head, of which we who are in Him are members of), or angels (where did that come from), or God.


(as for who brought up blasphemy, it was not me, as I explained here: viewtopic.php?p=1039679#p1039679)

Peace again to you.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #237

Post by 2timothy316 »

tam wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 7:12 pm Peace to you,
2timothy316 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 6:43 pm
tam wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:41 pm
I can only say that being in a religious organization is not the same thing as entering through the Gate and being on the road to life (which few find).
There it is. I knew you understood. You finally got what JW and I have been saying. It's just your anti-religion beliefs are clouding good reasoning and want to push your anti-religion views which in the grand scheme doesn't matter to your argument.
I know that is what you claim to be saying. But that is not what the quotes said (from your religion).
You want to say it so bad what you want it to say, that you've cherry picked a line out of context to get it to say what you want it to say. One line out of an 18 paragraph article. Ignoring all other information that JW and I have given that don't support your claim. There is no convincing you. You want to believe what you want to believe, I can't stop it or convince you but I can point out to other readers the how you operate to make your point.

After all being part of a religion doesn't deny a person Christ.
tam wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 7:45 pm Being a part of a religion in absolutely no way denies Christ (or His Body, of which He is the Head, of which we who are in Him are members of), or angels (where did that come from), or God.
Do you see what I did to your own quote? Do you like it when words are omitted from the thought to make it say what I want it to? Please stop doing it to us.
Last edited by 2timothy316 on Sun May 16, 2021 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #238

Post by tam »

2timothy316 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 8:29 pm
After all...
tam wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 7:45 pm Being a part of a religion in absolutely no way denies Christ (or His Body, of which He is the Head, of which we who are in Him are members of), or angels (where did that come from), or God.

That was deceitful.


Edited to add (because you changed/clarified your post, and I would hope people would give me the benefit of the doubt if I never meant to be deceitful, so I will also give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that you were not being deceitful):

Please note that you had to change my actual sentence - the actual quote - to make me sound as if I was saying something I was not.

I did not do that to any of the quotes that you supplied.

I know what you claim to believe. But what you claim to believe does not match up with what the writings that have been supplied. I would never believe what someone says about their religion, over what that religion says itself. Many people do not know (or do not acknowledge) what their religion teaches, as I am sure you know.

Many years ago I did a bible study (for two years) with two dear ladies from your religion. They were both sincere (as are many others in many other religions - sincerity does not mean truth). But I would never have just taken their word on anything. I asked many questions, I had multiple books brought to me (insight to the scriptures, the grand climax at hand, and of course that first book 'what does the bible really teach', some various magazines, even the ones that were - at the time - only meant for jws to read). I was not going to join something without making sure I knew all the teachings; no secrets surprises later (frog in boiling water analogy). Because the public face of something is so often NOT the same as what happens behind closed doors. That can include teachings; even genuine beliefs.


So if you (general you) say one thing, but your religious literature says another thing, I'm going to go by what the literature says as being representative of what the religion actually teaches. Because that is what the religion is putting out. The people in the religion might believe something different; they might be in denial about what the religion actually teaches; they might be blind themselves. Some people in religion (any religion) - if and when they come out of that religion - can wonder how they could have ever missed those things to begin with.


**

Since then, I know from my Lord that there is no true religion. There is only the Truth: He, Himself.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Last edited by tam on Sun May 16, 2021 9:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #239

Post by 2timothy316 »

tam wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 8:36 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 8:29 pm
After all...
tam wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 7:45 pm Being a part of a religion in absolutely no way denies Christ (or His Body, of which He is the Head, of which we who are in Him are members of), or angels (where did that come from), or God.

That was deceitful.
Cherry picking sucks doesn't it. So stop doing it to us. Because what you're doing is being deceitful.

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Re: Today's Excellent Church.

Post #240

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
2timothy316 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 8:29 pm
tam wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 7:12 pm Peace to you,
2timothy316 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 6:43 pm
tam wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:41 pm
I can only say that being in a religious organization is not the same thing as entering through the Gate and being on the road to life (which few find).
There it is. I knew you understood. You finally got what JW and I have been saying. It's just your anti-religion beliefs are clouding good reasoning and want to push your anti-religion views which in the grand scheme doesn't matter to your argument.
I know that is what you claim to be saying. But that is not what the quotes said (from your religion).
You want to say it so bad what you want it to say, that you've cherry picked a line out of context to get it to say what you want it to say. One line out of an 18 paragraph article.
It says what it says. I did not change a single word of the quote you posted (unlike what you did). I do not see how anything has been taken out of context or how you have even shown that it has been taken out of context.

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