Biblical Canon Fodder

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William
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Biblical Canon Fodder

Post #1

Post by William »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:24 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:08 pmI don't believe there are 73 inspired books in the bible canon.
Difflugia wrote: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:16 pm

How can you expect a complete picture of the Bible while cutting out and discarding a tenth of its content? You're literally decimating the Bible!
DECIMATE
1.
kill, destroy, or remove a large proportion of.
What evidence do you have that accepting the original 66 books of the bible canon amounts to "cutting out", "discarding" or figuratively "decimating" the bible?
Biblical Canon
2 Esdras 14:38-48
38 And the next day, behold, a voice called me, saying, Esdras, open thy mouth, and drink that I give thee to drink. 39 Then opened I my mouth, and, behold, he reached me a full cup, which was full as it were with water, but the colour of it was like fire. 40 And I took it, and drank: and when I had drunk of it, my heart uttered understanding, and wisdom grew in my breast, for my spirit strengthened my memory: 41 And my mouth was opened, and shut no more. 42 The Highest gave understanding unto the five men, and they wrote the wonderful visions of the night that were told, which they knew not: and they sat forty days, and they wrote in the day, and at night they ate bread. 43 As for me. I spake in the day, and I held not my tongue by night. 44 In forty days they wrote two hundred and four books. 45 And it came to pass, when the forty days were filled, that the Highest spake, saying, The first that thou hast written publish openly, that the worthy and unworthy may read it: 46 But keep the seventy last, that thou mayest deliver them only to such as be wise among the people: 47 For in them is the spring of understanding, the fountain of wisdom, and the stream of knowledge. 48 And I did so.
Are the various Christian denominations which accept or reject other Christian denominations canon, doing so for any other reason than it suits the particular belief systems [bias] of said individuals who sort themselves into the various denominations?

If so, can truth be found in any of these denominations belief systems worthy of trusting?

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William
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Re: Biblical Canon Fodder

Post #41

Post by William »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:58 pm
William wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:48 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:37 pm
William wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:35 pm
Are you suggesting that John The Beloved Disciple was not passing on 'by word of mouth' that which later became part of Biblical canon?
Yep. Until it was written down, it was not scripture.
So what was it regarded as before then?
Information for the people of John's time. When it was written into scripture it became something for all followers of true worship.
On the contrary. It became something supplied to people who did not want to know, happy enough they are in settling for the crumbs.
Are you suggesting that those things Jesus taught which were not passed on by word of mouth, are to be ignored as being things Jesus would have you know for yourself?
Yep. If we needed to know what was said we'd have it in scripture. And furthermore not everything written is to be canonized. Paul apparently wrote another letter to the Corinthians. Yet we only have 2 of those 3 known letters. But it's not in the canon, so it's not important to us.
Therefore I am correct [in the truth] in my observing that what went public was for those who are unwilling [not enabled] to take in the vaster things which altogether make up reality and that they should know their place in the scheme of things rather than attempt to speak with authority concerning the mysteries to which they have no knowledge of regarding the truth of said mysteries.
If a person wants to believe something other than what is written in the Bible be my guest.
On the contrary. It is not a case of 'belief' but rather experience and the experience is not 'other than'.
I can't stop them. I will not say it's God-Breathed whatever it is they are listening to. Concerning true worship of God, with the Bible, nothing is a mystery to me.
Nothing except of course, all those mysterious things that Jesus taught which you - by act of your own free will, have decided that you don't need to know.

And you are right. You cannot stop others from having alternative experience or expect arguments you have to be accepted as legitimate because that is not your place to do so. Know your place. You will not know it is 'god breathed' because you believe that only Biblical Script [canon] has that quality. You believe that "God Breathed" is another way of saying "written down".

But even the Bible does not claim that about "Gods Breath".

Words don't need to be written down before they can become words. That is The Truth.

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Re: Biblical Canon Fodder

Post #42

Post by 2timothy316 »

William wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:11 pm You believe that "God Breathed" is another way of saying "written down".
Wrong again. If 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 said there was more than scripture then I'd be with you. Yet it only says all scripture and not all things verbally passed down.
Words don't need to be written down before they can become words. That is The Truth.
That is your opinion and you're welcome to it.

For me I will stick to 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 as coming from God. It also says that a man of God will be fully equipped for teaching and setting all things straight using what is written. I do not recognize anything else as God-Breathed other than what is written in the Bible, as the Bible doesn't say any of His words would be coming from anywhere else.

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Re: Biblical Canon Fodder

Post #43

Post by William »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:23 pm
William wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:11 pm
You believe that "God Breathed" is another way of saying "written down".[/quote]
If 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 said there was more than scripture then I'd be with you.
Never mind what Timothy said. John was the one that said there was more than scripture.
Yet it only says all scripture and not all things verbally passed down.
Wrong. Timothy claimed that about all scripture. You simply admitted that if it wasn't written down then it isn't anything you personally are interested in.
Words don't need to be written down before they can become words. That is The Truth.
That is your opinion and you're welcome to it.

Nope. It is The Truth. I don't have an opinion on that.
My opinion on your apparent dismissal of the truth that "Words don't need to be written down before they can become words" is that you are not being truthful, which belies your claim in your relationship with scripture, because it is claimed that it is good for instruction in righteousness, but here you are blantantly being untruthful.
So I am to think that it is scripture that has you being untruthful, or that it is simply you choosing to be untruthful.

Whatever.

The truth is that "Words don't need to be written down before they can become words"
For me I will stick to 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 as coming from God. It also says that a man of God will be fully equipped for teaching and setting all things straight using what is written.
Why did you add the words "using what is written" when they are not included in that script? This gives the impression you are someone having "a form of godliness" but denying its power.
I do not recognize anything else as God-Breathed other than what is written in the Bible, as the Bible doesn't say any of His words would be coming from anywhere else.
A circular argument at best. But according to John, [and probably other Biblical authors as well] Jesus taught more than what the Bible records and also it was claimed that Jesus was who the God chose that his words would be coming from.

Your form of godliness is becoming quite transparent for its lack of power. Perhaps you might yet consider withdrawing and thinking seriously about the opportunity afforded to you to put things right in that department. You are certainly not as 'fully equipped" as you tell yourself that you are...

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Re: Biblical Canon Fodder

Post #44

Post by 2timothy316 »

William wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:43 pm
If 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 said there was more than scripture then I'd be with you.
Never mind what Timothy said.
It was Paul who wrote 2 Timothy. I will not never mind what is written in the Bible thank you very much.

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Re: Biblical Canon Fodder

Post #45

Post by 2timothy316 »

William wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 3:43 pm
Your form of godliness is becoming quite transparent for its lack of power. Perhaps you might yet consider withdrawing and thinking seriously about the opportunity afforded to you to put things right in that department. You are certainly not as 'fully equipped" as you tell yourself that you are...
Your opinion is noted and rejected. Why? Because what you say cannot be measured as a divine saying.

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Re: Biblical Canon Fodder

Post #46

Post by William »

I acknowledge that this thread has been derailed and have no further comment to make

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Re: Biblical Canon Fodder

Post #47

Post by Difflugia »

William wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:11 pmBut digging deeper still, one also realizes that Jesus taught a lot about "The Mysteries of The Fathers Kingdom" in private [things not recorded in any Biblical canon] and these all must have to do with the 'place' the dead experience.
This is sort of the idea behind Christian gnosticism. Based on what little we have left (mostly polemic from what would later become the proto-orthodox view), it looks like the gnostic sects in general had a range of secret, cryptic beliefs, knowledge of which allowed one to pass on to heaven (or enlightenment, or somesuch) when the time came. Such knowledge was passed on as initiates progressed through various ranks.

If you haven't read it, I recommend buying a copy of the Nag Hammadi corpus. Several of the texts are considered to be Valentinian gnostic and the Valentinians are interesting in that they tended to view orthodox texts as having cryptic meaning couched in allegory. The Nag Hammadi texts weren't even discovered until 1945, though, so the English translations are still under copyright. The ebook edition occasionally goes on sale for two or three dollars, though. There's also a copy in the Internet Archive's lending library that can be checked out for an hour at a time if you have or create an account.

There's some speculation among scholars of gnosticism that the original Paul was a member of one of these gnostic sects and the epistles that we now call his have undergone a series of revisions to act as proof-texts against gnosticism. The Gnostic Paul by Elaine Pagels is an interesting discussion of each Pauline Epistle from a gnostic (primarily Valentinian) perspective.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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