Proof Jesus is God.

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Benson
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Proof Jesus is God.

Post #1

Post by Benson »

The question here to consider is this: Is Isaiah 9:6 correct?

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Jesus clearly is God.

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Re: Proof Jesus is God.

Post #11

Post by Difflugia »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:32 amDear Benson,

In your last post you stated: "False. It is not possible to stand before Jesus before the Last Day. There is nothing in The Bible to show this is possible."

Could you please quote the verses that prove that is is not possible for one to stand before the Lord before the last day?

Can you show us the scriptures in the Bible that clearly show the above to be impossible?
Benson's no longer here, but you seem to have misread what he or she wrote. The statement that you quote asserts that there is nothing in the Bible to show this is possible. You have implicitly changed it to argue that there is something in the Bible that says this is not possible. Now, I understand that a common apologetic technique is to assert that anything one imagines is true as long as the Bible doesn't explicitly and exactly disclaim it, but since Benson didn't assert such, your argument is a straw man. It's a common tactic (around here, anyway) meant to imply some unfounded claim in a way that avoids having to provide any evidence yourself.

Benson won't be able to respond to your challenge, but I have a similar one for you: perhaps you could quote scriptures clearly showing that Jesus didn't enjoy putting live fish in his pants and that he wasn't high on meth when he delivered the Sermon on the Mount.

No? Pity.
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Re: Proof Jesus is God.

Post #12

Post by onewithhim »

Benson wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:02 am The question here to consider is this: Is Isaiah 9:6 correct?

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Jesus clearly is God.
Isaiah 9:6 does not show that Jesus is God. Looking at the original Hebrew words, we can see the difference between "God Almighty" and "Mighty god." Remember, too, that there are no capital letters in Hebrew, so giving "god" a capital letter in "Mighty god" is not necessarily correct, seeing that the capital "G" usually indicates God Almighty in English. "The mighty god" describes Jesus as an important, powerful individual. It is, in Hebrew, "El Gibbohr," mighty god.

"God Almighty" is a term used to describe only the Most High, Jehovah (YHWH). Jesus is never called "God Almighty," which, in Hebrew, is "El Shaddai."

So we have the description of Jesus in verse 6---wonderful, counselor, mighty god (important, highly revered, powerful person), everlasting father (Jesus did father many spiritual children, so to say, as did the Apostle Paul), and the Prince of Peace. There is nothing there to say that Jesus is God Almighty. "El Shaddai" is not directed at him. He is "El Gibbohr." Only Jehovah (YHWH) is El Shaddai.

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Re: Proof Jesus is God.

Post #13

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to Benson in post #7]

Absolutely! I doubt that he will ask that question anyway, because all the universe knows that Jesus is God's SON, not God Himself. He will look sadly upon those who insist that he is God. It pains him greatly.

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Re: Proof Jesus is God.

Post #14

Post by Difflugia »

onewithhim wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:49 pmIsaiah 9:6 does not show that Jesus is God. Looking at the original Hebrew words, we can see the difference between "God Almighty" and "Mighty god." Remember, too, that there are no capital letters in Hebrew, so giving "god" a capital letter in "Mighty god" is not necessarily correct, seeing that the capital "G" usually indicates God Almighty in English. "The mighty god" describes Jesus as an important, powerful individual. It is, in Hebrew, "El Gibbohr," mighty god.
The difference that you propose doesn't exist. El gibbor can mean either "a mighty god" or "El the Mighty" and there is no grammatical distinction between the two.
onewithhim wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:49 pm"God Almighty" is a term used to describe only the Most High, Jehovah (YHWH). Jesus is never called "God Almighty," which, in Hebrew, is "El Shaddai."
The point you're overlooking is that Yahweh is referred to by a number of epithets involving the name El and any of them can, as el gibbor can, be read as either a general description or personal epithet. El shaddai can just as accurately be rendered "an almighty god" or "El the Mightiest." The contexts of Genesis 17:1 and Exodus 6:2 imply that it's a personal epithet, but there's no indication there or elsewhere that el shaddai is unique in that respect. There are a number of others that could be read either way. The following list is far from exhaustive:
  • el elyon—"a most high god" or "El the Highest" (Gen. 14:18)
  • el ‘olam—"an eternal god" or "El the Eternal" (Gen. 21:33)
  • el bethel—"a god of Beth-El" or "El of Beth-El" (Gen. 31:13)
  • el elohey—"a god of gods" or "El of Gods" (Gen. 46:3)
  • el qana—"a jealous god" or "El the Jealous" (Ex. 20:5)
  • el rahum wechannun—"a merciful and gracious god" or "El the Merciful and Gracious" (Ex. 34:6)
Since verses like Genesis 35:1 imply that Yahweh also considers El to be another of His personal names and there are many potential El epithets that were otherwise never applied to Jesus, your assertion that el gibbor is different than el shaddai in any meaningful way is mere question begging.
onewithhim wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:49 pmSo we have the description of Jesus in verse 6---wonderful, counselor, mighty god (important, highly revered, powerful person), everlasting father (Jesus did father many spiritual children, so to say, as did the Apostle Paul), and the Prince of Peace. There is nothing there to say that Jesus is God Almighty. "El Shaddai" is not directed at him. He is "El Gibbohr."
That's a valid way to read Isaiah 9:6 and it's not inferior to any others, including trinitarian readings, but neither could it be considered a superior reading.
onewithhim wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:49 pmOnly Jehovah (YHWH) is El Shaddai.
Both Yahweh and Jesus are El.
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Re: Proof Jesus is God.

Post #15

Post by tam »

Peace to you all,

This may be understood already, but just in case it is unclear to anyone:

El is not a name of God. El is a word that means god/God. The word "El" has been incorporated into titles describing JAH (who is the God and Father of Christ, and the God of Abraham, and the Most Holy One of Israel).

The name ELiJAH for instance translates as "my God is JAH". The name of his God (and my God) is JAH.


As an example with 'man', it would be a bit like looking in the mirror and saying, "I am the man, Difflugia" or "I am the woman, onewithhim". Neither of you is saying that your name is "man" or that your name is "woman".


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Proof Jesus is God.

Post #16

Post by Difflugia »

tam wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:48 pmPeace to you all,

This may be understood already, but just in case it is unclear to anyone:

El is not a name of God. El is a word that means god/God.
No. El is both a word that means "god" and the name of a god.
tam wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:48 pmThe word "El" has been incorporated into titles describing JAH (who is the God and Father of Christ, and the God of Abraham, and the Most Holy One of Israel).
It has also been incorporated into names where it is a god's name in its own right.
tam wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:48 pmThe name ELiJAH for instance translates as "my God is JAH". The name of his God (and my God) is JAH.
The name Elisha translates as "my salvation is El."
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Re: Proof Jesus is God.

Post #17

Post by tam »

Peace again to you,
Difflugia wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:47 am
tam wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:48 pmPeace to you all,

This may be understood already, but just in case it is unclear to anyone:

El is not a name of God. El is a word that means god/God.
No. El is both a word that means "god" and the name of a god.
You say that with such conviction, buy are you sure this is so?

tam wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:48 pmThe word "El" has been incorporated into titles describing JAH (who is the God and Father of Christ, and the God of Abraham, and the Most Holy One of Israel).
It has also been incorporated into names where it is a god's name in its own right.
Such as? I ask, because everything listed a couple posts above are titles describing God. God Most High. God Almighty. God of gods. Whereas God and others state His name in the following:

Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: cast up a highway for him that rideth through the deserts; his name is JAH; and exult ye before him. Psalm 68:4

Let them know that you, whose name is JAHVEH-- that you alone are the Most High over all the earth. Psalm 83:18

See also Jeremiah 16:21, Isaiah 42:8, where God states His name, Himself.


tam wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:48 pmThe name ELiJAH for instance translates as "my God is JAH". The name of his God (and my God) is JAH.
The name Elisha translates as "my salvation is El."
[/quote]

Yes, many prophets have in them either the name of God (Jeremiah, Zechariah, Elijah) or the title God (Elisha, Joel), though even those that seem to have only the title God in them may have had the name of God in them as well at one point (but which has been lost in translation/transliteration/scribal error). Jah'eshua also has the name of His Father in His own name, though you wouldn't know that from "Jesus" (which is not His name).

Take also the name Joel. Because Jo'el, means JAH is God. So the actual presence of the name of God has been removed or hidden due to translation/transliteration/scribal error, at least in English.

https://www.behindthename.com/name/joel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_(giv ... ew%20Bible.

https://www.behindthename.com/name/jeremiah
https://www.behindthename.com/name/isaiah



Just some thing to consider, and to ask about for oneself, if one is so inclined.


Peace again to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Proof Jesus is God.

Post #18

Post by Difflugia »

tam wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:50 amYou say that with such conviction, buy are you sure this is so?
Considering that you made your assertion with just as much conviction and the evidence I gave is as good as yours, it seems a bit cheeky to ask me for more without adding to your own. But whatever.

First, Hebrew lacks an indefinite article. If a noun has a definite article in Hebrew, it means "the whatever" in English. If it doesn't, it either means "a whatever" or someone or something named "Whatever." There are verses where el appears without a definite article, but it's clear from context that a specific individual is intended. Job 5:8-9, for example:
But as for me, I would seek El.
I would commit my cause to Elohim,
who does [singular] great things that can’t be fathomed,
marvelous things without number;
From Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan by John Day, p. 16:
Although no one can today maintain that the patriarchal narratives are historical accounts, there are grounds for believing that their depiction of an El religion does at least in part reflect something of pre-monarchical religion, however much it has been overlaid by later accretions. In favour of a pre-monarchic El religion amongst the Hebrews one may first of all note the very name Israel, meaning probably 'El will rule', a name already attested in the late thirteenth century BCE on the stele of the Egyptian pharaoh Merneptah. It is surely an indication of El's early importance that the very name of the people incorporates the name of the god El. Secondly, as various scholars have noted, prior to the rise of the monarchy theophoric personal names including the name ’ēl are very common, whereas explicitly Yahwistic personal names are very rare (apart from Joshua only five from the Judges period).
tam wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:50 amSuch as? I ask, because everything listed a couple posts above are titles describing God. God Most High. God Almighty. God of gods. Whereas God and others state His name in the following:
You're begging the question. You're just saying that whenever El appears, it means the generic term "god," even in exactly the same kind of theophoric that you're offering as evidence that Yah is a name.
tam wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:50 amYes, many prophets have in them either the name of God (Jeremiah, Zechariah, Elijah) or the title God (Elisha, Joel), though even those that seem to have only the title God in them may have had the name of God in them as well at one point (but which has been lost in translation/transliteration/scribal error).
Do you have any sort of support for your "scribal error" assertion? I transliterated the names from Hebrew myself and I guarantee you that I didn't leave Yah out of any of them. If you take issue with my translations, then perhaps you could offer some justification beyond your simple assertion for why theophorics with Yah in them work differently than the ones with El.
tam wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:50 amJah'eshua also has the name of His Father in His own name, though you wouldn't know that from "Jesus" (which is not His name).
Yes, because of the transliteration from Hebrew to Greek. I'm not picking the names out of Greek, but Hebrew. David named one of his sons Elishua ("El is my salvation") (2 Sam 5:15), which is in exactly the same formula as Jesus' Hebrew name ("Yah is salvation"). Incidentally, the following verse includes three other sons named with El theophorics, as well.
tam wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:50 amJust some thing to consider, and to ask about for oneself, if one is so inclined.
Right back at you.
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Re: Proof Jesus is God.

Post #19

Post by onewithhim »

Difflugia wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:43 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:49 pmIsaiah 9:6 does not show that Jesus is God. Looking at the original Hebrew words, we can see the difference between "God Almighty" and "Mighty god." Remember, too, that there are no capital letters in Hebrew, so giving "god" a capital letter in "Mighty god" is not necessarily correct, seeing that the capital "G" usually indicates God Almighty in English. "The mighty god" describes Jesus as an important, powerful individual. It is, in Hebrew, "El Gibbohr," mighty god.
The difference that you propose doesn't exist. El gibbor can mean either "a mighty god" or "El the Mighty" and there is no grammatical distinction between the two.
onewithhim wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:49 pm"God Almighty" is a term used to describe only the Most High, Jehovah (YHWH). Jesus is never called "God Almighty," which, in Hebrew, is "El Shaddai."
The point you're overlooking is that Yahweh is referred to by a number of epithets involving the name El and any of them can, as el gibbor can, be read as either a general description or personal epithet. El shaddai can just as accurately be rendered "an almighty god" or "El the Mightiest." The contexts of Genesis 17:1 and Exodus 6:2 imply that it's a personal epithet, but there's no indication there or elsewhere that el shaddai is unique in that respect. There are a number of others that could be read either way. The following list is far from exhaustive:
  • el elyon—"a most high god" or "El the Highest" (Gen. 14:18)
  • el ‘olam—"an eternal god" or "El the Eternal" (Gen. 21:33)
  • el bethel—"a god of Beth-El" or "El of Beth-El" (Gen. 31:13)
  • el elohey—"a god of gods" or "El of Gods" (Gen. 46:3)
  • el qana—"a jealous god" or "El the Jealous" (Ex. 20:5)
  • el rahum wechannun—"a merciful and gracious god" or "El the Merciful and Gracious" (Ex. 34:6)
Since verses like Genesis 35:1 imply that Yahweh also considers El to be another of His personal names and there are many potential El epithets that were otherwise never applied to Jesus, your assertion that el gibbor is different than el shaddai in any meaningful way is mere question begging.
onewithhim wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:49 pmSo we have the description of Jesus in verse 6---wonderful, counselor, mighty god (important, highly revered, powerful person), everlasting father (Jesus did father many spiritual children, so to say, as did the Apostle Paul), and the Prince of Peace. There is nothing there to say that Jesus is God Almighty. "El Shaddai" is not directed at him. He is "El Gibbohr."
That's a valid way to read Isaiah 9:6 and it's not inferior to any others, including trinitarian readings, but neither could it be considered a superior reading.
onewithhim wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:49 pmOnly Jehovah (YHWH) is El Shaddai.
Both Yahweh and Jesus are El.

You are missing the point that "El Shaddai" is never used to identify the Messiah/Christ in the Scriptures. That term is applied ONLY to YHWH (Jehovah). Jehovah may be referred to as "El Gibbohr" at times, but he is always the mightiest, above everyone else. That is understood. (See Psalm 83:18, KJV). Again---Jehovah might be called "El Gibbohr" at times, but Jesus is never referred to as "El Shaddai."

Jehovah = Almighty God

Jesus = mighty god

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Re: Proof Jesus is God.

Post #20

Post by Difflugia »

onewithhim wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:58 pmYou are missing the point that "El Shaddai" is never used to identify the Messiah/Christ in the Scriptures. That term is applied ONLY to YHWH (Jehovah). Jehovah may be referred to as "El Gibbohr" at times, but he is always the mightiest, above everyone else. That is understood. (See Psalm 83:18, KJV). Again---Jehovah might be called "El Gibbohr" at times, but Jesus is never referred to as "El Shaddai."

Jehovah = Almighty God

Jesus = mighty god
I'm not "missing" your point, but disagree with you that it's necessarily meaningful. Very few of the many, many El epithets used for Yahweh appear in texts that are interpreted as messianic and your only argument is that the one in Isaiah 9:6 isn't your favorite. That argument is meaningless if the messianic interpretration is correct and the Messiah is being referred to by the name El rather than merely one el among several (or many). Neither Hebrew nor logic prevents you from reading it as "a mighty god," but you've offered no valid reason that "Mighty El" is at all an inferior reading, let alone an impossible one.

There may be valid reasons for thinking that Jesus and Mighty El aren't the same person, but Hebrew grammar and your outraged insistence aren't among them.
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