Think Jesus will save you? Sacrifices are ONLY for unintentional sins.

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Avoice
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Think Jesus will save you? Sacrifices are ONLY for unintentional sins.

Post #1

Post by Avoice »

If you want to believe Jesus is a sin sacrifice go ahead. But understand that Christianity learned of the sacrificial system from the Hebrew Scriptures. And the laws concerning sacrifices are specific.

Sacrifices were ONLY UNINTENTIONAL sins. UNINTENTIONAL

All your sibs that you committed knowing it was wrong when you did it Jesus couldn't fix even if he wanted to. Because you committed them intentionally. Knowing full well it was wrong. And let's face it....most all your sins are intentional.


How can Christians think Jesus can save them knowing this? This is the law on sacrifices. So now what?

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Purple Knight
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Re: Think Jesus will save you? Sacrifices are ONLY for unintentional sins.

Post #2

Post by Purple Knight »

I have to say I like this better than what is taught by most. Because:

1. The murderer is no longer equal to the nose picker, needing to do exactly the same things to make up for what they did wrong. The murderer can be worse than the nose picker. The idea that he can't is a reductio ad Christianity for some.

2. The sacrifice is more of an apology and a genuine gesture to make up for the wrong than a get-out-of-jail-free card.

It's still a problem to me that someone else can sacrifice in my name. If I did wrong I should be the one sacrificing.

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Re: Think Jesus will save you? Sacrifices are ONLY for unintentional sins.

Post #3

Post by Overcomer »

Avoice wrote:
How can Christians think Jesus can save them knowing this? This is the law on sacrifices. So now what?
The sacrificial laws outlined in the Old Testament were meant for the nation of Israel alone and were never intended to be carried on forever by the Jews, let alone Christians. Certainly, modern Jews don't follow those laws and, for the most part, have no interest in re-establishing animal sacrifices. See here:

https://www.aju.edu/ziegler-school-rabb ... en-and-now

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Re: Think Jesus will save you? Sacrifices are ONLY for unintentional sins.

Post #4

Post by bjs1 »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:13 pm 1. The murderer is no longer equal to the nose picker, needing to do exactly the same things to make up for what they did wrong. The murderer can be worse than the nose picker. The idea that he can't is a reductio ad Christianity for some.
There is a lot to unpack here, but let me put forth a few thoughts.

First, within orthodox Christianity, murder was always worse than picking your nose. While all sin is sin, this is not to say that all sins are equal.

However, the murder and nose picker do need to the do the exact same thing to make up for what they did wrong. That is, both must repent and accept grace.

The theology of this thread does not change that. If the murder and the nose picking were both committed intentionally then neither can be atoned for. By the theology of this thread both the murderer and the nose picker are equally lost.

Allow me to recount a conversation I overheard many years ago during the height of the Catholic Church abuse scandal. One man said, “How can a priest make up for pedophilia? What penance is going to be good enough for that kind of sin?” His friend said, “Two Hail Mary’s and one Our Father.” (That is, pray for about 90 seconds.)

The point being that either God forgives or He does not. Nothing can make up for murder or rape or pedophilia. There is no sacrifice a person could make which would atone for that kind of sin.

I am not sure if this is what you meant by “reductio ad Christianity,” but there it is. The reality is reduced to grace.

If Avoice is correct and a sin knowingly committed cannot be atoned for then he is, like the rest of us, doomed. Hope can only exist if God is merciful, even when we knew that what we did was wrong.
Purple Knight wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:13 pm It's still a problem to me that someone else can sacrifice in my name. If I did wrong I should be the one sacrificing.
The nature of mercy means that someone else must always sacrifice in your name. If you step on my toe and I say, “I forgive you,” then I have sacrificed in your name. I have suffered the stepped upon toe. You have no means of undoing that fact. For me to show mercy to you, I must sacrifice in your place.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Miles
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Re: Think Jesus will save you? Sacrifices are ONLY for unintentional sins.

Post #5

Post by Miles »

Avoice wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:43 pm If you want to believe Jesus is a sin sacrifice go ahead. But understand that Christianity learned of the sacrificial system from the Hebrew Scriptures. And the laws concerning sacrifices are specific.

Sacrifices were ONLY UNINTENTIONAL sins. UNINTENTIONAL
Considering that unintentional wrongs are mistakes, why would a god hold a mistake-maker liable, and to such an extent that some kind of sacrifice be made? From where I sit it appears the god of Abraham simply likes animals slaughtered on his behalf---a blood lust perhaps---which are arranged by making some acts sacrifice-worthy. This rather gruesome delight aside, my impression has always been that sins are wrongful acts that are knowingly committed. NO? If not, then I have a more grounded set of moral principles than the Big Guy.


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Re: Think Jesus will save you? Sacrifices are ONLY for unintentional sins.

Post #6

Post by Difflugia »

Avoice wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:43 pmSacrifices were ONLY UNINTENTIONAL sins. UNINTENTIONAL
There must be more nuance than that.

Leviticus 6:1-7:
Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, “If anyone sins, and commits a trespass against Yahweh, and deals falsely with his neighbor in a matter of deposit, or of bargain, or of robbery, or has oppressed his neighbor, or has found that which was lost, and lied about it, and swearing to a lie—in any of these things that a man sins in his actions—then it shall be, if he has sinned, and is guilty, he shall restore that which he took by robbery, or the thing which he has gotten by oppression, or the deposit which was committed to him, or the lost thing which he found, or any thing about which he has sworn falsely: he shall restore it in full, and shall add a fifth part more to it. He shall return it to him to whom it belongs in the day of his being found guilty. He shall bring his trespass offering to Yahweh: a ram without defect from the flock, according to your estimation, for a trespass offering, to the priest. The priest shall make atonement for him before Yahweh, and he will be forgiven concerning whatever he does to become guilty.”
Leviticus 19:20-22:
If a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave girl, pledged to be married to another man, and not ransomed or given her freedom; they shall be punished. They shall not be put to death, because she was not free. He shall bring his trespass offering to Yahweh, to the door of the Tent of Meeting, even a ram for a trespass offering. The priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before Yahweh for his sin which he has committed; and the sin which he has committed shall be forgiven him.
Both of these unambiguously require volition on the part of the sinner to transgress Yahweh's laws, but sacrifices can atone for them, at least in part.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: Think Jesus will save you? Sacrifices are ONLY for unintentional sins.

Post #7

Post by Purple Knight »

bjs1 wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:23 pmFirst, within orthodox Christianity, murder was always worse than picking your nose. While all sin is sin, this is not to say that all sins are equal.

However, the murder and nose picker do need to the do the exact same thing to make up for what they did wrong. That is, both must repent and accept grace.
Then to me that's equal. Equal punishment or equal repentance required logically means an equal deed.
bjs1 wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:23 pmAllow me to recount a conversation I overheard many years ago during the height of the Catholic Church abuse scandal. One man said, “How can a priest make up for pedophilia? What penance is going to be good enough for that kind of sin?” His friend said, “Two Hail Mary’s and one Our Father.” (That is, pray for about 90 seconds.)

The point being that either God forgives or He does not. Nothing can make up for murder or rape or pedophilia. There is no sacrifice a person could make which would atone for that kind of sin.
I would hope so.
bjs1 wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:23 pmI am not sure if this is what you meant by “reductio ad Christianity,”
It's shorthand for, if the religion believes that, it must be absurd, because that thing is clearly absurd.
bjs1 wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:23 pmThe nature of mercy means that someone else must always sacrifice in your name. If you step on my toe and I say, “I forgive you,” then I have sacrificed in your name. I have suffered the stepped upon toe. You have no means of undoing that fact. For me to show mercy to you, I must sacrifice in your place.
That's true but that's why I live my life insisting to make up for the little things, not simply apologise for them. In fact, I've stopped apologising. Apologisers are, in modern day, almost always terrible people trying to get away with it and take advantage of the fact that you'll forgive it, thinking it a mistake.

I take the other route and show people with my actions that I want to make up for this wrong. For example, if I say something even minorly hurtful to my wife, I buy her something nice or take her to dinner or something.

If I step on your toe I owe you a goat.

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Re: Think Jesus will save you? Sacrifices are ONLY for unintentional sins.

Post #8

Post by Avoice »

[Replying to Overcomer in post #3]

If sacrifices are only for the nation of Israel then why are you sacrificing Jesus(God) to God? Where did you learn about sacrifices and atonement? The Jews. Where did you learn of the Messiah? The Jews.
Don't claim that the law has been replaced because God killed himself then turn to the laws of the sacrificial system. You have no protection under the law. You reject it.

Whether the Jews have any interest in the sacrificial system doesn't matter. You know why there are no sacrifices today? Because the temple was destroyed. And only there does God accept sacrifices. Not a disgusting place like Golgotha. Scriptures tells us we will be without a king and sacrifices many days ...BUT...

THE TEMPLE WILL BE REBUILT AND RHE SACRIFICIAL SYSTEM WILL BE REINSTATED. That's right. Reinstated. Not only that but the prince, the Messiah himself will offer a sacrifice for himself. And also a sacrifice for the nation.

The Christian Testament says Jesus died once for all sins. Oh yeah? The sacrificial system will be restored.

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Re: Think Jesus will save you? Sacrifices are ONLY for unintentional sins.

Post #9

Post by Avoice »

[Replying to Miles in post #5]

Your whole survival depends on ending the life of things that are living. Plant or animal. Even if you drink water. Every time you open your mouth something dies.

The ways of God are higher than yours.

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Miles
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Re: Think Jesus will save you? Sacrifices are ONLY for unintentional sins.

Post #10

Post by Miles »

Avoice wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:24 pm [Replying to Miles in post #5]

Your whole survival depends on ending the life of things that are living. Plant or animal. Even if you drink water. Every time you open your mouth something dies.

The ways of God are higher than yours.
Ah . . . I fail to see any relevance to my post. Are you sure you got the right poster?


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