What is the Purpose of Church Gatherings?

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What is the Purpose of Church Gatherings?

Post #1

Post by isaachunter »

1. I ask from an evangelical perspective, but other expressions and traditions are welcome to provide answers.

2. As for myself, I became a believer outside of any organized Church, but was subsequently (a year later) discipled at a missionary Baptist Church in Germany during a military enlistment (2 years). My faith, though, has never been founded on or sustained by any particular preacher, pastor, or teacher, nor was it elicited from any kind of evangelistic ministry. Since that 2 year period, I have not been formally involved or regularly attended (or was a member of) an organized Church. I have served at a few Churches for short periods of time, but always under some level of hostility or suspicion from the leadership, and I’ve started or participated in several formal and informal Bible Studies and/or House Churches (but to no avail). For the last 10+ years I have sought out no Church affiliation, membership, or participated in any gatherings.

3. As for myself, I am not disgruntled, I’m not avoiding “sound teaching,” I’m not a church hopper seeking the newest, best, or most popular, and I’m not avoiding submission to an eldership (in fact, I think part of me craves that kind of acceptance from the larger group).

4. I thrived in the church community the first 2 years of my faith while overseas. But, church attendance was only a small part of my faith. I would attend other meetings at other churches, bible studies, and prayer groups during the week, and would invite pastors of all denominations to my barracks for discussions.

5. By the time I returned to the US, I found no benefit to attending Sunday services on a regular basis. My spiritual disciplines had by then become daily, and I sought teaching from the growing catalog of tapes, and internet resources (local preachers simply could not compare).

6. Lately, though, I’ve been questioning if I should return to church gatherings or (as I’m finishing up my doctorate) if I should take on the role of pastor or teacher in an organized Church. As I explore this question, I wonder: is this really all there is?

7. As I perceive it, the purpose of Church meetings are these:
  • A means of teaching members (especially new converts)
  • A means of extracting money from members
  • A means of creating or perpetuating employment for professional clergy
  • A means of entertaining members
  • A means of entrancing members via emotional tactics
8. For the longest time, I’ve been a proponent of online and especially asynchronous Church participation. This predominately derives from a natural inclination within me toward an introverted disposition. I do not (necessarily) hate people, but I’m just not really that into keeping their company. I have no friends to speak of, no relationships (I really should have been a monk), though I am cordial and affable with my co-workers (i.e. I’m not an awkward weirdo - at least, I don't think so). But, I do much better at a distance, alone, in solitude, and have found through education that I thrive in online environments such as forums or interacting with email (rather than f2f in person or online such as zoom calls, etc). This approach to communication, though, has always been viewed by church leaders as illegitimate and does not constitute the “gathering of the assembly” (that is, until COVID).

9. But I’m still struggling to understand the point of it all. What is it that the Church Meeting does exactly? What is its purpose? What is its goal? What is its essential nature? Is it really just about teaching people? If so, this can be done (much more effectively) online. Is it about sharing our lives together as believers (this happens rarely in most f2f church meetings already). Is the meeting really just about protecting the clergy profession, in that sense the clergy class becoming no different than Demetrius and the other silversmithers (Acts 19:23–27)?

10. I’m thinking there is something greater, something more fundamental, more important to the Christian faith than just these programs, these organized shows on Sundays - beyond evangelistic fervor (I’m certainly no evangelist, nor do I have the call to be one). Is there nothing else? No deeper substance? No other revelation beyond the superficial minutia? What am I missing here? Am I simply deluded and shipwrecked? Possessor of a malformed faith? A heretic?

What really is the purpose of Church gatherings in the first place?

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Re: What is the Purpose of Church Gatherings?

Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

What is the Purpose of Church Gatherings?

HEBREWS 10:25

... not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near.


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FURTHER READING What Are JEHOVAHS WITNESSES Meetings Like?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... witnesses/



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Re: What is the Purpose of Church Gatherings?

Post #3

Post by isaachunter »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #2]

Yes, I'm fully aware of the go-to verse always pointed to that somehow equates what Paul was referencing in the first century to the modern expression of Church gatherings we have today. They are not the same and the gap between the two grows ever wider with every passing generation.

Let me go through the verse, though, anyway:

1. not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom,
So, there were people in the first century who did not participate in the "meeting together." It doesn't say why they didn't (which would be very helpful if the author had elaborated). It was a habit or a custom to avoid meeting together. It likewise, says nothing about what they were doing in those meetings in the first century, at least not in this specific verse (so how can you equate the two to begin with?). But, lets take the verse at face value. Don't forsake meeting together (some were doing it). This forum alone is an example of Christians (and some non-Christians) meeting together to do the same things that occur (but not as often as one would hope) in a f2f church gathering. At what point did the definition of "meeting together" equate to you have to meet in a f2f, b&m building, on a specific day and time, under the auspices of a corporately structured organization? There was nothing like this when Paul wrote this verse. It was just people meeting together in homes and in caves and at the river. There was no organization. There was no "business" of church. And there certainly was no top-down "governing body" that made all the decisions for everyone else.

2. but encouraging one another,
Whether or not they were already doing this typically in the meetings, Paul was certainly telling them that this is something they should be doing in the meetings. Since you want to equate this verse to modern day, what occurs in the modern Church gatherings today where we are "encouraging one another?" I personally stopped being encouraged after about two years, simply because there was no logical purpose in continuing to meet when everything (and more) that the local church was "doing" I found could be done online (and in a more effective way). So, Christians are still meeting regularly (online) and still encouraging one another (online). Not sure how this verse applies to the question.

3. and all the more so as you see the day drawing near.
This is not done in modern Church gatherings. In fact, most churches are not even gathering anymore at all. Several in my neighborhood have simply closed up shop and taken their signs down because they could no longer pay their lease. And how could anyone not see "the day drawing near?"

So, I guess I should qualify my question a bit more:

What is the purpose of Church Gatherings that cannot be done online or asynchronously? Why do professional clergy insist on f2f meetings and state that to be a Christian you must attend these artificial presentations each week on certain days and at certain times?

Example: For several years now my work week runs through the weekend. My job, in fact, relies on my willingness to work both Saturday and Sunday. Back when I was still attempting to participate in organized Church gatherings, I found a church that was between my work and home (I commute) that had Wed Bible Studies. I was thrilled because it was the only day I could attend. I attended for several weeks until the Pastor held me back one night and explained to me that I could not be a part of his church if I wasn't attending on Sundays. And that was that.

So, a flippant response of Hebrews 10:25 does not really answer the question. This verse has been used against me many times to say I'm apostate, or I'm a heretic, or I somehow must be mired in sin, when, in reality, I fulfill this verse completely. Not only do I not forsake the gathering (online), but I do "attend" regularly and encourage others (online) and do so more frequently as I see the day drawing near. To use this single verse (out of context and with no additional support) is a tactic of avoidance and group think - a canned response that doesn't really mean anything.

Question Restated: What is the purpose of Church Gatherings that 1. cannot be done online and 2. that an individual would otherwise miss out on if they do not attend actual f2f meetings?

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Re: What is the Purpose of Church Gatherings?

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

isaachunter wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:48 am [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #2]

Yes, I'm fully aware of the go-to verse always pointed to that somehow equates what Paul was referencing in the first century to the modern expression of Church gatherings we have today. They are not the same and the gap between the two grows ever wider with every passing generation.

Emphasis MINE


Well I can only speak for my own religion ( Jehovah's Witnesses) and in essence ours are the same.
isaachunter wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:48 amAt what point did the definition of "meeting together" equate to you have to meet in a f2f, b&m building...?
The word meeting is not a reference to a building, it is a reference to individuals coming together or gathering at a particular location. There is little doubt that first century christians did however meet in some kind of building as Paul sent greetings to the congregation that gathered in individuals homes which we can reasonably conclude was a sheltered walled construction (building) of some description. Peoples homes are rarely an open field. I do not know what a "b&m building" is so I cannot address this particular point is.
I take it f2f means "face to face": Are you suggesting that the first century Christians did not meet / gather close enough to see each others faces? Did Paul not charge his bretheren to greet each with a loving kiss? How could they gave gatered in believers homes (see above) and not be phyicically within sight of each other?
isaachunter wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:48 amAt what point did the definition of "meeting together" equate to you have to meet ...on a specific day and time, ...?
Logically in order for individuals and families from different households to gather they would have to be aware of the time and location of the meeting.




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Re: What is the Purpose of Church Gatherings?

Post #5

Post by JehovahsWitness »

isaachunter wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:48 amThere was no organization. There was no "business" of church. And there certainly was no top-down "governing body" that made all the decisions for everyone else.
I beg to differ. The first century Christians certainly met the defintion of being an organized religion with specific goals, approved teachings, regular meetings (see above) and a single authoritive "governing body".






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Re: What is the Purpose of Church Gatherings?

Post #6

Post by JehovahsWitness »

isaachunter wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:48 am 2. but encouraging one another,
Since you want to equate this verse to modern day, what occurs in the modern Church gatherings today where we are "encouraging one another?"
Again I can only speak for the meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses not for other groups. At our meetings we enjoy fellowship, conversation. Discuss bible topics, join in prayer and song. At larger conventions and spe cial meetings we share a meal get to know fellow believers from other regions.


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Re: What is the Purpose of Church Gatherings?

Post #7

Post by JehovahsWitness »

isaachunter wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:48 am 3. and all the more so as you see the day drawing near.
This is not done in modern Church gatherings. In fact, most churches are not even gathering anymore at all. Several in my neighborhood have simply closed up shop

This is done in the modern Church gatherings of Jehovahs Witnesses.

The first century Christians faced "the day" of the conclusion of the Jewish system of things. This would effect the Hebrew Christians more than others, but Paul indicated by his words all Christians should be aware of the times in which they live in. Jehovahs Witnesses take this warning to heart as we believe we too face "the day", not of the destruction of Jerusalem but of the destruction of the entire world system of things. Our meetings we believe for this reason are as important as ever.


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Re: What is the Purpose of Church Gatherings?

Post #8

Post by JehovahsWitness »

isaachunter wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:48 am Question Restated: What is the purpose of Church Gatherings that 1. cannot be done online and 2. that an individual would otherwise miss out on if they do not attend actual f2f meetings?

You cannot kiss somebody or hug them online. You cannot hold someone's hand online. Physical contact while not a bible mandate is a fundamental part of the human existence and it would be negligent to dismiss its value. Christians gatherings are not just about the transmission of information but for the encouragement of the brotherhood. Many Christians live alone and suffer from feelings of isolation and loneliness which are not best alleviated by virtual contact. The "gold standard" of encoruagement includes the essential aspect of being in the physical proximity of those you love.
HEBREWS 10:25

... not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near.


Image

That said, thanks to modern day technology, "gathering" can now be done virtually via a computer screen. Thus the directive at Hebrews 10:25 can be obeyed using ZOOM or TEAMS or any other technology. All JWs meetings in North America Europe and many other regions are currently being held on ZOOM.






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FURTHER READING

Attend Meetings “All The More So”
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/201998123

What Are JEHOVAHS WITNESSES Meetings Like?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... witnesses/
To learn more please go to other posts related to

CHRISTIAN MEETINGS , KINGDOM HALLS and ... ORGANIZED RELIGION,
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
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Re: What is the Purpose of Church Gatherings?

Post #9

Post by Overcomer »

I think there are a multitude of reasons why we should meet with others on a regular basis.

My first reason is love: God created us to be in a loving relationship with him and with each other. He's a relational God and he created us in his image, making us relational as well. In fact, I would go so far as to say he has created us to be in community, not in isolation.

I think it's also important to consider the fact that the Bible tells us that God is love. How could he be love if there was no object or recipient of that love? As an eternal being, he was, is and always will be love. This is one of the arguments for the Trinity. How could God be love before the creation of humankind except that, as one God who exists in three persons, there has always been love shared amongst the three members of the Triune Godhead?

Secondly, we need community to be able to help each other mature in faith, wisdom, holiness, etc. It's an essential part of our walk with Christ and our growth as we aim to become more like Jesus. I have seen too many lone wolves go off by themselves, think they're hearing from God, and who believe things that have nothing to do with God, the Bible or Christianity. We need help to stay on track. We live in a culture where individualism and freedom to be whoever or whatever we want are touted as the greatest good, but such a route is fraught with dangers.

Thirdly, corporate worship is important. Personally, I find solitary worship to have its place, but I miss worshipping with others if I don't have the chance to do so. I attend Zoom services because of the pandemic and it just isn't the same. There's a certain comfort, strength and feeling of belonging when I join with others. I have found that, when facing trials, attending a service has helped to refuel me for my re-entry into the fray on a Monday morning.

And I want to be where the Holy Spirit is. A God-honouring, Bible-honouring church where the Holy Spirit is present offers a powerful experience of God.

Lastly, I think community helps us stay on fire for the Lord. I remember someone once saying that a single coal can quickly lose its heat and burn out, but a pile of them will keep each other burning brighter and longer. The solitary Christian risks losing his or her passion for the Lord and can become cold in solitude.

Having said all of that, I do believe there are times when being alone with the Lord are also important. I think we need both to stay spiritually healthy and hearty.

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Re: What is the Purpose of Church Gatherings?

Post #10

Post by isaachunter »

Hey Overcomer,

Thanks for your response to this question. So, let me see if I can summarize the purposes you provided:

1. Love, i.e. developing loving relationships with each other. i.e. God is relational.

This is an important point you bring up. It would be difficult to deny that love is, if not the singular purpose of God's will, it is at least a primary. Love for us. Love even for the lost. For myself, though, in my experience with f2f meetings, I didn't often see genuine, self-sacrificial love exhibited from the members. Rather, I witnessed a great deal of backbiting, a lot of hand-wringing over minutia, and some real, flesh-driven brutality (from both members and leaders). Most leaders appeared purposed only to perpetuate their programs, their systems. Yes, there was giving to the poor, there were pats on the back and empathy's shared. But most of this came off, in the end, as superficial, forced, and self-serving. Now, to be completely honest, this might have much more to do with my own perceptions (or misconceptions), idiosyncrasies, personal peccadilloes, as well as my own propensity toward introversion and the orientation toward solitude as opposed to relational interactions. It was, though, by an large, the greatest takeaway I had of my interactions with modern Churches.

2. To help each other mature in faith, wisdom, and holiness (dangerous to be on your own). Current individualized culture is not the Biblical culture. Individualism is fraught with danger.

I can definitely see how this would be important. After all, Paul expressly identifies this as a purpose of the fellowship in Ephesians 4:11-16, to equip the body of Christ for works of service, to build it up into the unity of Christ. Additionally, I could see in times past (when there was no internet) and in regions of the globe that currently do not have internet (though I don't see this remaining for much longer), that preaching and teaching in the local format was essential. But, if a purpose of the local meeting is to help each other mature, why is the format typically of a singular individual preaching and teaching? It is most often a handful of individuals with the masses serving the seat of spectator. Rarely do the masses speak to each other, let alone build each other up. It is most often a show not uncommon to a theater or a musical performance. The only building that I experience in the organized Church was outside of the official meeting times and even that was on rare occasion.

I'm also curious about the idea that individualism is fraught with danger. I suppose if one were to isolate from the Church universal entirely, meaning no commentaries, no books, nothing but one's own faulty mind and a Bible, then there is great possibility of error. As for myself, despite no attendance to a local meeting, I'm still surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. Chuck Missler. Michael Heiser. John MacArthur. James White. Just to name a few. Audio and video lectures from some of the greatest seminaries and universities in the world: DTS, Master's, Yale, Harvard, Stanford. Then a host of books that would rival the great libraries in Alexandria - from Chafer to Aquinas, from the Desert Fathers and Church Fathers to J P Moreland and William Lane Craig. All o these materials (videos, audios, books) are available to me (and to the Church) on demand. I am so privileged to sit at the feet of learned men, all who seek to know and understand Christ and what his plan is for us.

Additionally, I am able to reach out to people online, from every walk and strata of life and region of the globe. Through social media (which I do not use) or the online forums (such as this one), or email, I'm able to communicate and correspond with great thinkers and commoners alike. To pose, assess, consider, debate, and wrestle with the truth - with much greater exposure to ideas and concepts that the local f2f gather simply cannot contend (I live in a small, backwoods town). Not only can I communicate in real time and asynchronously, but I can join discussions and participate and benefit from dialogues that happened a week ago, a year ago. I can benefit from an online discussion that occurred in 2010, and this very thread will be available to edify those in 2030 and beyond (granted there is still an internet for Christians by then).

I would actually argue that I am better served by the Internet Meeting Place than the local f2f meeting when it comes to being built up and helping others as well to grow in the faith.

3. Corporate worship. Solitary worship "has its place" but it's not the same. Zoom meetings are not the same. To face trials we need to "refuel" from f2f meetings.

This is very, very interesting, and I think really gets to the heart of the issue. I think I understand you when you say "corporate worship." It is typically the stand up, sit down, sing songs, etc? It is usually what book ends the sermon on any given Sunday. Hymns and singing and public prayers offered on the "altar of our hearts."

If I'm to be 100% honest (and if this is, indeed, what you were referring to), these kinds of activities hold no sway over me at all. It never has. Not even as a new believer. I always wondered why we spent time on Sunday's singing dreadful songs with everyone out of tune, and always wondered when it would finally all end. Does this necessarily make me an inauthentic Christian? Does it in some way invalidate my conversion, my profession, or my call before God? I would argue how dangerous it is to subject oneself to a corporate worship that often incorporates pagan and secular elements in order to artificially stir the emotions for ulterior means.

I've always been that odd duck. When others are lifting their hands and crying out, I'm in the corner in the back pew, head bowed. When others are running to the conference at the arena, I'm heading to the woods, to the quiet brook, to stand in awe of God's creation, and to be alone with him. This is the very reason why I ask if I am somehow malformed in my faith, since I have no desire to do the things other confessors desire to do. The "refilling" you speak of does not happen for me within the four walls of a Church, or even amongst other believers. Believe me, I've tried. Many times. Rather, it happens for me, instead, in silence, amidst solitude, in sacred and solemn and deserted places. I seek isolation not in need to run from something or someones, but in attempt to grasp in firm grip that which had first taken hold of me. It is not something I've ever experienced in the assembly. How can it be wrong that solitude and isolation draw me closer to God?

4. The f2f meeting is where the Holy Spirit is. F2f meetings offer a powerful experience of God.

Are we sure we can conclude that the Holy Spirit is in the f2f meeting? Or, maybe a better question would be, how can we conclude the same Holy Spirit is not likewise just as much present on the holy hill, or hidden deep in the wild places? Can we say the place to worship is only found in the commonly accepted place? Is it the synagogue? Is it the modern church building? Is it the house church? Is it at the river? Is it on the mountain top? Wouldn't it be in all of these places? Cannot God meet us anywhere?

5. F2f meetings help us stay "on fire" for the Lord. Solitaries risk losing their passion and grow cold.

I'm starting to get the impression that you and I have had very different experiences in the modern Church, for I would argue the exact opposite. The f2f meeting tends to extinguish my zeal for God, while solitude tends to enliven it. But, I also have to question your definition here of "on fire." Are you referring simply to a zeal for God, a thirst for his Word? Or, are you referencing the Charismatic tendencies in corporate worship (tongues, etc)? If the former, we are diametrically opposed, simply based on personal, anecdotal evidence. If you are referring to the latter, we are whole worlds apart and such divergence from the subject would require a whole new thread.

Suffice it to say, I have never experienced #5 to be accurate in my own life. Solitude and isolation, stillness and contemplative activities enliven and quicken me toward Christ, not the other way around. Maybe these are simply different expressions of the same Spirit working out within different callings? Different yet the same spirit working in all and through all (1 Corinthians 12:11).

6. Solitary times are important but a Christian needs both to be spiritually healthy.

Could it not be more appropriate to state to each his call and election? Cannot one be called to minister to the saints, and another be called to pray, and another be called to reason and consider? One be called to the city center to evangelize while the other called to the wilderness to pray? If, say you are correct, and Christ and God are relational by nature and, thus, the body of Christ should, in turn, likewise be relational. Meaning, there is no place for the solitary within the body of Christ. Can you proffer an explanation for the solitary who is naturally inclined to isolation? Is it malformation? Is it heretical tendency? Is it rebellion? If so, should the solitary fight against everything within him, against the thrashing spirit, and present himself, regardless of his conviction, to the f2f meeting each week? Fake it?

I know for all my experiences in the f2f Church meeting, this is very much how I felt while participating. It was a performance. It was a show. It was a signal to others that I am of Christ, when everything within me, everything that spoke to me from my soul was screaming to get out of there, get away from others and find the stillness, the sacred, the place where God does speak (at least to me).

It's hard to imagine the modern Church's prohibition against solitaries when the majority of the great Christian thinkers over the centuries were hermits and wild men and anchorites. Strangely, before leaving the f2f Church, I had never once heard of these ancient men. No one wants to talk about them.

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