Sola Scriptura?

[tam]

Peace to you all,

On another thread, the topic of errors in scripture came up, and a member posted the following:

Sola Scriptura -- Scripture alone -- concerns the relation between Scripture and tradition, and affirms that Scripture is to be understood as the sole source of divine revelation, the only inspired, infallible, final, and authoritative norm of faith and practice... Scripture is “God-breathed” (2 Tim. 3:16); what Scripture says, God says

Do you see any flaws in the above description, and if so, what flaw (or flaws, if more than one) do you see? I see at least one (stands out like a flashing neon light to me), but I will wait to respond.


Peace again to you!

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #1]

The obvious problem, IMHO, is what defines scripture? Is it scripture because it sits between the covers of the Bible? If so, which version and which translation of that version?

Even in this subforum, if the standard 66 books are considered scripture, that doesn't rule out other sources of scripture. Nowhere in the Bible does it say what it deems scripture. Technically, the passage given in the OP could mean that ONLY that original document is scripture and God breathed.

These are good points. I'm just going to point out a couple of things:

1 - Christ referred to scripture as Moses, the Psalms, the Prophets. (Luke 24:27, 44, 45)

2 - Where Paul says all scripture is 'god-breathed' (or inspired), that cannot mean that everything cover to cover in the bible is scripture and therefore inspired. Paul is referring to scripture BEING inspired. In other words, something written that is inspired, is scripture. Its not scripture just because it is in the bible. Inspired has real meaning. Not the layman 'inspired' (as in 'the flowers on the side of the road inspired me to plant my garden'). But inspired as in given 'in spirit'.

This is in keeping with what Christ said. For example, the prophets are inspired... aka... the Word of God came to them, or they were in the spirit, or they received something while in the spirit, in a dream or a vision. See Joel 1:1, Jeremiah 1:1-2, Zephaniah 1:1, Jeremiah 28:12, 36:2, Daniel 7:1 (and Daniel did not just receive visions and dreams; he was told the meaning of these things); Revelation 1:10, 11.

I know revelation is not mentioned by Christ as scripture, because of course Revelation had not yet been given or written. But John received revelation while in the spirit. He was even told to write down what he saw and heard, it is inspired, therefore it is scripture.

None of that means that these books are free from error, though - having been copied and transcribed and translated and passed down, etc. Even Jeremiah the prophet wrote of the erring pen of the scribes: "'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of [the LORD]," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?"

Even Christ said 'woe to you scribes'.


**

As for the gospels, these are testimony but not scripture. Some are eyewitness testimony (such as the gospel attributed to "john"), and some are second-hand testimony of things handed down to them (such as Luke).

**

Either way, even according to what is written, Christ had to open the scriptures to His disciples so that they could understand. And there were many people who searched the scriptures yet did not know the Father or recognize His Son.

"You diligently study the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."


It is no different today. Nothing new under the sun.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ Jaheshua,
tammy

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to William in post #8]

Your particular argument means that in theory one doesn't even need knowledge of the bible in order to serve Christ, and that bringing biblical interpretation into the situation would only muddy the waters in relation to that, as it obviously is proven to do so.

Yes, but we're not supposed to be relying upon our own understanding. We are not supposed to be "interpreting". Christ is the One who opens the scriptures; He is the "key" to understanding them.

And yes, one can certainly hear and learn from Christ, Himself (without the bible). The bible is a sight tool, it helps those who yet walk by sight. But it is not necessary once one is walking by faith (faith, which is based upon what is HEARD, meaning what is heard and received in the spirit, from Christ, the actual Word of God). Though reading scriptures may still be comforting or helpful or enjoyable in places, especially if Christ directs us TO read a specific passage (of course reading what He has directed one to read would then be acting in faith, because one is listening to what He has said to do).

The obvious in this case is that with the bible being interpreted as "The Word of God", one has to reply on only that 'which is written' even in regard to serving Christ, so even if Christ told one to believe 'such and such', if 'such and such' is not 'written', then one can dismiss what the Christ wants one to know, in preference to "what is written' therefore "what is written" is the relationship one is having - with the bible [word of God] rather than relationship with the Christ [Word of God] in Spirit - the bible trumps...and you have argued as much with me in the past - that if it isn't 'in the bible' then you reject it.

I have never argued that with you William. To the best of my recollection, I have never argued that - ever - in my entire life.

If that is what you think I have argued, then a misunderstanding has occurred somewhere along the way.

I am sure that I have said to you the same thing that I have said to Pinseeker (and others). That I will remain in Christ. I will listen to Him, to His words.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

The funny thing about any kind of disagreement with the concept of Sola Scriptura and whether it conflicts with Soli Christus or not is, Jesus Christ IS the Word made flesh. So:

• Yes, Christ is in Person the sole revelation of God -- there is no other Way to the Father; in these last days, God has spoken to us by His Son.

• And yes, Scripture is in writing the sole revelation of God -- there is no other final written authority other than Scripture itself.

Both are equally true.

Grace and peace to all.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Even IN what is written (though this is testimony rather than scripture), God said, "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."

Should we listen to Jesus? Yes absolutely! Why? Peter said it best, "You have the words of eternal life." - John 6:68.

Indeed we should listen to Christ (Jaheshua).

Iteresting that you choose John 6 to quote from, in particular this verse from Peter.

“Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me."


"But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which ANYONE may eat and not die. "


And later,


While they were eating, [Jesus] took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Where does Jesus get his information?

John 12:49 says, "For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak."

Christ gets His information from His Father, yes. So that listening to Christ is listening to the Father.

Those that think Jesus is saying something different than what the Bible says have not considered that what is in the Bible came through Jesus. Everything comes through him, that includes the Bible. Revelation even states this in it's first sentence, "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him." - Rev 1:1.

Just a quick note: That is referring to the revelation given in the book of Revelation, only.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[2timothy316]

Those that think Jesus is saying something different than what the Bible says have not considered that what is in the Bible came through Jesus. Everything comes through him, that includes the Bible. Revelation even states this in it's first sentence, "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him." - Rev 1:1.

Just a quick note: That is referring to the revelation given in the book of Revelation, only.

Read the first verse of the Greek Scriptures. Most mention that Jesus is the source. The book of Revelation is not the only book that were the information was from Jesus Christ.

Acts 1:1 "The first account, O The·ophʹi·lus, I composed about all the things Jesus started to do and to teach until the day that he was taken up, after he had given instructions through holy spirit to the apostles he had chosen."

Acts of the Apostles covers mostly Peter and Paul. Both with multiple books of the Bible. Of course before they were books in the Bible they were letters. Who told them to write those letters?

Read the first chapter of every letter in the Greek Scriptures. Christ is mentioned as the reason they are sending a letter. Especially Paul. He always started his letters identifying that he is writing as a servant of Jesus.

Galatians 1:1,2 says, "Paul, an apostle, neither from men nor through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him up from the dead, and all the brothers with me, to the congregations of Ga·laʹti·a:"

James too says he is writing as a slave of Christ. James 1:1.

[PinSeeker]

Read the first verse of the Greek Scriptures. Most mention that Jesus is the source. The book of Revelation is not the only book that were the information was from Jesus Christ.

Acts 1:1 "The first account, O The·ophʹi·lus, I composed about all the things Jesus started to do and to teach until the day that he was taken up, after he had given instructions through holy spirit to the apostles he had chosen."

Acts of the Apostles covers mostly Peter and Paul. Both with multiple books of the Bible. Of course before they were books in the Bible they were letters. Who told them to write those letters?

Read the first chapter of every letter in the Greek Scriptures. Christ is mentioned as the reason they are sending a letter. Especially Paul. He always started his letters identifying that he is writing as a servant of Jesus.

Galatians 1:1,2 says, "Paul, an apostle, neither from men nor through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him up from the dead, and all the brothers with me, to the congregations of Ga·laʹti·a:"

James too says he is writing as a slave of Christ. James 1:1.

Agree 100%. Excellent post, 2timothy316. No disrespect to anyone intended, of course, but this is but one of the many things in Scripture that make it so astonishing that folks fail to see the Son, Christ, as God in the form of man.

Grace and peace to all.

[tam]

Peace again to you both,


...And yet all the 'sola scriptura' and 'studying of the scriptures and/or the bible', and Christ is not the one who is being obeyed.

[PinSeeker]

...And yet all the 'sola scriptura' and 'studying of the scriptures and/or the bible', and Christ is not the one who is being obeyed.

Au contraire... Reading Scripture is formative. It's one of the ways God works in us to conform us to Christ's image -- make us more like Him -- so that we will both will and work to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). So yeah, if one wants to be like Jesus -- which we Christians should be all about; we should love Him so much that we want to be just like Him -- then, yeah, read the Bible. It's one of the ways God gave us to run to Christ, take rest and refuge in Him, become more like Him, and yes, listen to Him.

Grace and peace to all.

[tam]

Peace to you,

...And yet all the 'sola scriptura' and 'studying of the scriptures and/or the bible', and Christ is not the one who is being obeyed.

Au contraire... Reading Scripture is formative. It's one of the ways God works in us to conform us to Christ's image -- make us more like Him -- so that we will both will and work to His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). So yeah, if one wants to be like Jesus -- which we Christians should be all about; we should love Him so much that we want to be just like Him -- then, yeah, read the Bible. It's one of the ways God gave us to run to Christ, take rest and refuge in Him, become more like Him, and yes, listen to Him.

Grace and peace to all.

Nothing you have said here changes what I said. All that 'sola scriptura' belief; all that 'studying the scriptures and/or the bible' and Christ is still not the One being obeyed (specifically in this instance, from the examples in my post to timothy).

How then is Christ coming first?


**

Scriptures can be useful for some things (such as when a person is yet walking by sight), but it is not perfect (there are errors that can be misleading if a person looks to that book as their authority; and of course interpretations of men can 'color' how a person sees what is written, when a person looks to man for understanding instead of to the true and living Word of God). But the bible is not the authority over the Church. It does not even make that claim about itself.

Christ is the authority over the Church (and everything/everyone else, except over His Father). He is alive (the Living Word of God); He speaks; He calls His sheep (even by name) and leads them, teaches them, disciplines them, refines them. Even the bible testifies to this, gives examples of Christ teaching and leading His sheep (Himself), after His death and resurrection and ascension.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace to you,

Those that think Jesus is saying something different than what the Bible says have not considered that what is in the Bible came through Jesus. Everything comes through him, that includes the Bible. Revelation even states this in it's first sentence, "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him." - Rev 1:1.

Just a quick note: That is referring to the revelation given in the book of Revelation, only.

Read the first verse of the Greek Scriptures. Most mention that Jesus is the source. The book of Revelation is not the only book that were the information was from Jesus Christ.


Acts 1:1 "The first account, O The·ophʹi·lus, I composed about all the things Jesus started to do and to teach until the day that he was taken up, after he had given instructions through holy spirit to the apostles he had chosen."

Acts of the Apostles covers mostly Peter and Paul. Both with multiple books of the Bible. Of course before they were books in the Bible they were letters. Who told them to write those letters?

There is a big difference between Acts (and Luke) and Revelation.

John received revelation - he was taken in the spirit, heard and saw many things, and was told (in the spirit) to write it down. John is very clear about this, how he received what he saw and heard, as well as from whom. Same as the prophets before him (the Word of God came to Ezekiel...)

This is not what happens in the books that Luke writes. Luke states up front that he investigated the things he wrote, things that had been handed down to them by eyewitnesses, so that he could write an orderly report for Theophilus.

Read the first chapter of every letter in the Greek Scriptures. Christ is mentioned as the reason they are sending a letter. Especially Paul. He always started his letters identifying that he is writing as a servant of Jesus.

That does not make something inspired/God-breathed. That identifies the person writing and whom they are serving.

**
Paul also changed something he taught (because he made a mistake at the start, and learned later the truth from Christ).

"Are you not to judge those inside (the Church)?" 1Corinth 5:12

"Let us stop judging one another." Romans 14:13 (and he is speaking about those in the church here; see Romans 14:4, 10)


They cannot both be true, therefore they cannot both be inspired. But we can know the latter is true - if indeed we are listening to Christ - because Christ told us not to judge (Do not judge, or you will be judged).


But this is a good example of something that happens when a person thinks that the bible is the authority, instead of Christ being their authority; His words and his commands coming first. Some religions (such as your own) even set up judicial committees to judge their own, in keeping with Paul's words (the earlier command), instead of in keeping with the words of Christ (which Paul later conformed to). Some religions and people don't set up judicial committees, but still judge, in keeping with Paul's earlier words, instead of in keeping with the words of Christ (which again, Paul learned and conformed to.)

But I mean, Paul and the apostles and the rest of the disciples were men (and women). Not perfect. Not infallible. They could make mistakes and they had to learn. You know that is true, because Paul rebuked Peter to his face when Peter was acting hypocritically, leading others astray with him. (Galatians 2)


We are to listen to Christ - remain in Him, His words, His commands. Regardless of what any religion or person says (or writes).


"If you love me, obey my commands."

We all make mistakes; but we do not have to remain in our mistakes. We can learn, turn and come to Christ.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy