Sola Scriptura?

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tam
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Sola Scriptura?

Post #1

Post by tam »

Peace to you all,

On another thread, the topic of errors in scripture came up, and a member posted the following:
Sola Scriptura -- Scripture alone -- concerns the relation between Scripture and tradition, and affirms that Scripture is to be understood as the sole source of divine revelation, the only inspired, infallible, final, and authoritative norm of faith and practice... Scripture is “God-breathed” (2 Tim. 3:16); what Scripture says, God says

Do you see any flaws in the above description, and if so, what flaw (or flaws, if more than one) do you see? I see at least one (stands out like a flashing neon light to me), but I will wait to respond.


Peace again to you!

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Re: Sola Scriptura?

Post #51

Post by 2timothy316 »

tam wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:52 pm


The very simple answer is that they are not all His sheep.
Funny that is what those say they hear Jesus always say about each other.

And no, I will not be answering any of your questions here, please have your Jesus read my mind and have him tell you what I said, since he speaks to you and all.

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Re: Sola Scriptura?

Post #52

Post by tam »

Peace again to you,
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:56 pm
tam wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:52 pm


The very simple answer is that they are not all His sheep.
Funny that is what those say they hear Jesus always say about each other.
A - That is also what religions say about other religions that do not agree with them or that do terrible things in the name of "Jesus". Does that mean that you have dismissed all religion, every single one of them?

B - Aren't you also now dismissing what Christ said? Re: the verses that I posted? Because He is the One who said that many would come in His name, but would not be from Him.

And no, I will not be answering any of your questions here, please have your Jesus read my mind and him tell you what I said, since he speaks to you and all.

It is telling that you won't answer the question, timothy. But if you don't want to look that closely at the reason for your objection, I am not going to force you.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Sola Scriptura?

Post #53

Post by 2timothy316 »

tam wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:08 pm Peace again to you,
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:56 pm
tam wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:52 pm


The very simple answer is that they are not all His sheep.
Funny that is what those say they hear Jesus always say about each other.
A - That is also what religions say about other religions that do not agree with them or that do terrible things in the name of "Jesus". Does that mean that you have dismissed all religion, every single one of them?
Ah so if they can then that justifies you all to do it. Got it.

B - Aren't you also now dismissing what Christ said? Re: the verses that I posted? Because He is the One who said that many would come in His name, but would not be from Him.
I have not dismissed it. I'm calling out people who are saying they are coming in his name right now. Haven't you dismissed it?

And no, I will not be answering any of your questions here, please have your Jesus read my mind and him tell you what I said, since he speaks to you and all.

It is telling that you won't answer the question, timothy. But if you don't want to look that closely at the reason for your objection, I am not going to force you.
It's telling because I told you. Your questions are completely unimportant to me. Your proof is what I want. LMK when Jesus speaks to you again. Have him repeat to you what I told him, then tell me. Then I will believe you speak with Jesus. Until then I just see another person saying they are coming in his name.

I have been warned so I must be cautious. "However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons." 1 Tim 4:1

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Re: Sola Scriptura?

Post #54

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:41 pm
tam wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:08 pm Peace again to you,
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:56 pm
tam wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 3:52 pm


The very simple answer is that they are not all His sheep.
Funny that is what those say they hear Jesus always say about each other.
A - That is also what religions say about other religions that do not agree with them or that do terrible things in the name of "Jesus". Does that mean that you have dismissed all religion, every single one of them?
Ah so if they can then that justifies you all to do it. Got it.
I never made that claim.

The point is in the question that I bolded.

B - Aren't you also now dismissing what Christ said? Re: the verses that I posted? Because He is the One who said that many would come in His name, but would not be from Him.
I have not dismissed it. I'm calling out people who are saying they are coming in his name right now. Haven't you dismissed it?
But you have dismissed it. You are the one who said that just because someone claimed that Christ told them to do something (well, you said "Jesus"), that they must have heard him. I never made that claim. Christ said the exact opposite of that, and I have you verses to support what He said. Hence we are told to test the inspired expressions. Hence we must hold all things up against the Light (that is Christ). Test against Christ (the true Word of God), for He is the Truth and the Light. Test also against love, because God is love, and nothing that comes from Him will be against love.


If someone tells you something that is against Christ (His word, His commands), you can know not to listen to them (perhaps they are liars, perhaps they are listening to a lying spirit, perhaps they are simply mistaken and you can do as Priscilla and Aquilas did with Apollos: expound the truth more accurately). If someone tells you something that is against love, and claims that 'inspired expression' to be from God, you can know not to listen to them. But perhaps you can expound the truth more accurately to them, or at least try, out of love.
And no, I will not be answering any of your questions here, please have your Jesus read my mind and him tell you what I said, since he speaks to you and all.

It is telling that you won't answer the question, timothy. But if you don't want to look that closely at the reason for your objection, I am not going to force you.
It's telling because I told you. Your questions are completely unimportant to me.


And yet I have answered your questions, have I not? If we are having a discussion, is it supposed to be one-sided like this?
Your proof is what I want. LMK when Jesus speaks to you again. Have him repeat to you what I told him, then tell me. Then I will believe you speak with Jesus. Until then I just see another person saying they are coming in his name.
I am sure people said similar things to the earliest disciples - and even to Christ - when He said who He came from. But I am not telling you to listen to me, so it should not matter. I am nothing more than a servant and a witness to Christ. I can only point to HIM. He is the One to whom God has said to listen. He - Christ - said that His sheep will listen to His voice. The very book that you claim to be your authority gives you multiple examples of Christ speaking to His disciples after His death and resurrection and ascension.

So you do not need to take my word for anything. If you do not believe what Christ said, that is between you and Him.


I have been warned so I must be cautious. "However, the inspired word clearly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired statements and teachings of demons." 1 Tim 4:1
Indeed. So what have I said that is against anything that Christ said? Because the sad thing here is that it is not me - but rather a religion - that is telling people to follow some teaching other than what Christ taught; and to obey something other than what Christ commanded. I have not said to listen to me, but rather I have pointed to Christ. He is the Truth, the Word of God, truly alive.



Peace again to you, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Sola Scriptura?

Post #55

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:01 pm Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:51 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:53 am
tam wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:36 pm
Even IN what is written (though this is testimony rather than scripture), God said, "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."
Should we listen to Jesus? Yes absolutely! Why? Peter said it best, "You have the words of eternal life." - John 6:68.

Where does Jesus get his information?

Romans 11:36 says. "For from him and through him and to him are all things." That would include the Bible. Where does he get his information to put into the Bible?
John 5:19 says, "So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise."
John 12:49 says, "For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak."

Those that think Jesus is saying something different than what the Bible says have not considered that what is in the Bible came through Jesus. Everything comes through him, that includes the Bible. Revelation even states this in it's first sentence, "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him." - Rev 1:1.

Therefore a person can listen to Jesus and still be Sola Scriptura. Even Jesus used the Scriptures to defend himself against Satan and not his own words. Even Jesus was Sola Scriptura. (Matthew 4:1-11)
I don't think it could be said any better, timothy. Jesus said to Jehovah, "Your Word is Truth." (John 17:17) What are Jehovah's words? Of course it is the Bible. Otherwise, the Bible is worthless.
Surely you do not think that when Christ said "Your Word is Truth" that He was referring to the bible?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Yes, Jesus was referring to the scrolls that he was familiar with throughout his life---that he quoted from on many occasions. The Bible as it existed then---the Hebrew Scriptures, or, the Old Testament.

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Re: Sola Scriptura?

Post #56

Post by tam »

Peace to you onewithhim,
onewithhim wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:31 pm
tam wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:01 pm Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:51 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:53 am
tam wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:36 pm
Even IN what is written (though this is testimony rather than scripture), God said, "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."
Should we listen to Jesus? Yes absolutely! Why? Peter said it best, "You have the words of eternal life." - John 6:68.

Where does Jesus get his information?

Romans 11:36 says. "For from him and through him and to him are all things." That would include the Bible. Where does he get his information to put into the Bible?
John 5:19 says, "So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise."
John 12:49 says, "For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak."

Those that think Jesus is saying something different than what the Bible says have not considered that what is in the Bible came through Jesus. Everything comes through him, that includes the Bible. Revelation even states this in it's first sentence, "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him." - Rev 1:1.

Therefore a person can listen to Jesus and still be Sola Scriptura. Even Jesus used the Scriptures to defend himself against Satan and not his own words. Even Jesus was Sola Scriptura. (Matthew 4:1-11)
I don't think it could be said any better, timothy. Jesus said to Jehovah, "Your Word is Truth." (John 17:17) What are Jehovah's words? Of course it is the Bible. Otherwise, the Bible is worthless.
Surely you do not think that when Christ said "Your Word is Truth" that He was referring to the bible?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Yes, Jesus was referring to the scrolls that he was familiar with throughout his life---that he quoted from on many occasions. The Bible as it existed then---the Hebrew Scriptures, or, the Old Testament.
You think that when Christ said "Your Word is Truth" that He actually meant, "Your scripture/bible is truth"?

How can that be possible?

1 - the word that Christ uses for 'word' here is logos. The word that Christ uses for scripture in the same prayer (just a few sentences earlier) is graphe.

While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture (graphe) would be fulfilled.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 1124&t=KJV

If Christ was referring to scripture at John 17:17, why would He have used a different word?



2 - Christ said in His prayer to the Father, "I gave them your word." If you are correct, then what He meant would be: "I gave them your scriptures/bible." But that doesn't make sense. He gave them the words that the Father gave Him to speak.


3 - Christ also said in His prayer to the Father, "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."

So who is sanctified by the bible?

Are we not sanctified by Christ - the Logos; the Word, the Truth, the One who speaks to us the words that God gave Him to speak?




Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Sola Scriptura?

Post #57

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to tam in post #57]

The Father's Word was inherent in the Scriptures that were available then. Whose "word" was in those scrolls? Of course it was the Father's word.

.

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Re: Sola Scriptura?

Post #58

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

[Replying to onewithhim in post #58]

I do not see how that responds to my post or to the questions I asked in my post. You can insert scroll for scriptures or bible if you prefer, but that does not change anything from my post.

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Re: Sola Scriptura?

Post #59

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:15 pm Peace to you,

[Replying to onewithhim in post #58]

I do not see how that responds to my post or to the questions I asked in my post. You can insert scroll for scriptures or bible if you prefer, but that does not change anything from my post.
To me it is counterproductive to strain at the gnat of the words you are arguing about. Jesus is "the Word (Logos)" and he always transferred, if you will, the Father's intent (His words) to humans through the scrolls, at the time of Jesus, and through the whole Bible canon these days.

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Re: Sola Scriptura?

Post #60

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:22 am
tam wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:15 pm Peace to you,

[Replying to onewithhim in post #58]

I do not see how that responds to my post or to the questions I asked in my post. You can insert scroll for scriptures or bible if you prefer, but that does not change anything from my post.
To me it is counterproductive to strain at the gnat of the words you are arguing about. Jesus is "the Word (Logos)" and he always transferred, if you will, the Father's intent (His words) to humans through the scrolls, at the time of Jesus, and through the whole Bible canon these days.
But that (the underlined) is not true, owh. He SPOKE, He asked questions, He told parables, He explained the meaning of His parables to His disciples; He gave commands and instructions; He pointed out hypocrisy; taught things that were true from the beginning ("Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. Now I tell you..." Matt 19:8...)


He continued to speak and teach and command after His death, resurrection and ascension, as even the bible records (Acts 8:29, Acts 9:4-6; Acts 9:10-17; Acts 10:19; and of course the Revelation given to John; and of course Christ's own words that His sheep listen to His voice, not just those alive at that time, but also the sheep that He was yet to bring: I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice;)


Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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