Predestination Theology

[William]

I don't think the false predestination god should be the one to define that seeing how he is willing to torture people eternally for conditions that he placed on them. The false predestination god is a sicko.

Q:1 Is there a "True Predestination God?"

Q2: Even if hellish experiences exist for individuals, does this mean that the god is "a sicko"?

Or

Q:2.1 Is the god only a "Sicko" if those hellish experiences last forever for said individuals?

[myth-one.com]

Where do the scriptures state that we were created eternal beings?

Nowhere because eternal beings cannot be created without having a beginning point to their existence. In which case they are enternal only from that point on.

I'll actually quote your entire statement, because it is absolutely correct. All are eternal beings from the point of their creation forward. But I would say that Scripture does state explicitly that man was created an eternal being... here:

• "Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." (Genesis 1:26-27)

Eternality is but one among a great many things being said there. We are all created in Their/His image.

If mankind is created with immortality in Genesis 1:26-27 as you claim, then what does God eject mankind from the Garden of Eden in Genesis 3:22-23 to separate them from the Tree of Life lest they eat from it and live forever:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)

How did they lose their immortality between Genesis 1:26-27 and Genesis 3:22-23?

Is immortality that fleeting?

[William]

. . . we are eternal beings, "breathed" into the human form, and in that regard the human form itself was designed to accommodate the eternal soul within it for eternity as long as access to The Fruit of The Tree of Life was available.

Where do the scriptures state that we were created eternal beings?

Nowhere because eternal beings cannot be created without having a beginning point to their existence. In which case they are eternal only from that point on.

That's correct. No takes back!

But the script given was to do with The Creators breath.

If The Creator is eternal *tick*
Then The Creators breath is also eternal...the point being that an aspect [consciousness] of The Creator was placed into the form [literally a cadaver] and in this act, the cadaver [human instrument] became alive.

The Creator is a Spirit and has absolutely no cause to breathe! Breathing is a characteristic of physical beings.

Are you denying that "it is written" or did you forget to explain why it is written? I myself wrote that it wasn't talking about 'air' at all, but about Creator-Consciousness.

Then in order for the form to not have a use-by date, the fruit of the tree of life needed to be consumed. Death [for the form] did not happen because the fruit of the tree of KoGaE was consumed, but because The Creator prevented Adam and Eve from having access to the fruit of the tree of life, which up until that time the pair had access to.

Eating once from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil was was sufficient for the entire existence of the human species.

Sufficient for what?

Eating of the Tree of Life works the same way. One only has to eat from it once to be born again as an immortal spiritual body. Once one gains everlasting spiritual life, it cannot be taken away by anyone.

An interesting take on things but inconsistent with the storyline.

Adam and Eve never ate from the Tree of Life. They chose poorly and ate from the Tree of Knowledge.

Why would you claim that this is the case? The ToL was there and they were permitted to eat its fruit. Are you making this up so that it fits with your argument?


And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)

This clearly shows us that The Creator Entity of the story was making good on his promise that the pair would experience dying. He expelled them from the Garden and put guards at the gate, and sent the pair into the world to work. No more kicking back in paradise for those two or their offspring...

So in that the Serpent didn't lie . . .

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. (Genesis 3:3-5)

So at this point, the Serpent tempts Eve into committing the identical crime which he committed -- disobeying a commandment from God -- thinking that will thwart God's plan.

Do you think that this God did not know what was going to happen? There is nothing about the Garden story which indicates that the plan was for humans to replace spirit beings. Humans are spirit beings, incarcerated into human form.
The more obvious thing to get from the story is that humans were the rebellious angels and that is why they were incarcerated into the physicals universe, which itself was created for that purpose.

Satan's statement about their eyes being opened to good and evil was correct.

It depends on what that [opened to good and evil] means.

His statement that they would not surely die was a lie.

That also depends on what "you will surely die" means. Obviously it didn't mean they would drop dead on the spot, because - with all that juice from the fruit of the tree of life in their bodies, they lived hundreds of years inside their human containers, before those containers finally gave up the ghost. [Mark 15 37]

IF Jesus 'died that we may live" "For The Creator so loved the world...that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" THEN what does that actually mean, if all are eternal beings already?

That what if is based on Satan's lie being true.

Can a lie ever be true? It has not been established that it was a lie. Clearly it was not the whole truth...

Anyone who "shall not surely die" is immortal like God.

Perhaps so, but not necessarily free like a God...assuming a God can actually be free...

If "all are eternal beings already," then we don't need Jesus or God -- as we are already equal unto the angels and God.

Unless we have been taught to believe something which isn't actually truth. In which case, the necessity could still be there...even as symbolic...
Also to note, I am not arguing that enteral beings are 'equal to God', any more than I am claiming Angels are. [You, however, appear to be saying they are...]

Basically, Satan is trying to get Adam & Eve to commit the same sin which he committed:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

Nope - not seeing it. If anything the trick played had the opposite effect. It grounded the spirit into the earthly domain. Which in turn had the spirit who are incarcerated into human forms, worshiping images of gods. So the evidence points to the opposite of what you claim there.

And it has worked!! The vast majority of Christians believe mankind was created with an immortal soul! Thus, they seal the scriptures from their understanding -- because the scriptures repeatedly state otherwise.

And worship of other objects such as books. I am not here to be enticed into wasting time arguing what a true Scotsman [Christian] is. That is fallacy.

Certainly we can ascertain from what Jesus did teach publicly, that he himself believed in afterlife events which the individual would experience. Certainly it is evident that Jesus regarded human beings as spirit within form...

Jesus believed in an everlasting afterlife for believers only!

Well as we can both agree, there are a world full of 'believers' in all sorts of things. To believe in Jesus is obviously specific with what Jesus taught, and clearly he taught far more than the Bible tells us...but Christianity is a confused cauldron of contradicting 'truths', and their holy book has proved to be unhelpful - and perhaps even the cause of the confusion.

Also [obviously] your particular take on biblical interpretations is something you regard as true and correct, so you will no doubt consider yourself part of this elect and predestined flock of believers who will be the only ones to be granted life forevermore.

What do you believe you will be doing with this everlasting life?

[William]

Where do the scriptures state that we were created eternal beings?

Nowhere because eternal beings cannot be created without having a beginning point to their existence. In which case they are enternal only from that point on.

I'll actually quote your entire statement, because it is absolutely correct. All are eternal beings from the point of their creation forward. But I would say that Scripture does state explicitly that man was created an eternal being... here:

• "Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." (Genesis 1:26-27)

Eternality is but one among a great many things being said there. We are all created in Their/His image.

If mankind is created with immortality in Genesis 1:26-27 as you claim, then what does God eject mankind from the Garden of Eden in Genesis 3:22-23 to separate them from the Tree of Life lest they eat from it and live forever:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)

How did they lose their immortality between Genesis 1:26-27 and Genesis 3:22-23?

Is immortality that fleeting?

You are still not understanding that the tree of life was for the purpose of keeping the container [human form] from decaying and dying which would mean that the spirit within the form would lose its container and just be a ghost in an otherwise physical environment, unable to do anything in relation to that environment ...or at least, severely restricted in what it could achieve.

[myth-one.com]

What do you believe you will be doing with this everlasting life?

After the Second Coming and Jesus' defeat of Satan, the Earth will once again become part of the kingdom:

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15)

So Jesus will defeat Satan and the Earth will become part of the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus will then rule the Earth from new Jerusalem for ever and ever. What will born again Christians be doing?

...we shall also reign with him. (II Timothy 2:12)

And how long will we be on the Earth reigning with Jesus? For eternity:

...and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

[William]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #95]

My Reply

[myth-one.com]

You are still not understanding that the tree of life was for the purpose of keeping the container [human form] from decaying and dying which would mean that the spirit within the form would lose its container and just be a ghost in an otherwise physical environment, unable to do anything in relation to that environment ...or at least, severely restricted in what it could achieve.

You claim that humans (AKA "the containers") were created to live eternally.

Then you claim that the Tree of Life was for the purpose of keeping the containers [human forms] from decaying and dying.

You need to figure out how to explain that those completely opposing sentences are somehow both saying the same thing.

====================================================

I don't think you understand the two type of bodies defined in the Bible.

There are natural bodies and spiritual bodies.

The spiritual body is the superior body type. It is immortal, painless, unrestricted by matter, able to move as the wind, etc, etc, etc . . .

God, for example, is a spirit:

John 4:24 God is a Spirit:

Is "God" in one of your some "containers" somewhere?

================================================

Given a choice, why would anyone desire a human "container" over a spiritual body?

[William]

You are still not understanding that the tree of life was for the purpose of keeping the container [human form] from decaying and dying which would mean that the spirit within the form would lose its container and just be a ghost in an otherwise physical environment, unable to do anything in relation to that environment ...or at least, severely restricted in what it could achieve.

You claim that humans (AKA "the containers") were created to live eternally.

No. I claim that 'humans" are spirit being incarcerated into the human form. When you get that, then re-read what I wrote...

[PinSeeker]

If mankind is created with immortality in Genesis 1:26-27 as you claim...

Whoops! Stop right there; go no further. I don't claim such a thing. So the rest of your post:

...then what does God eject mankind from the Garden of Eden in Genesis 3:22-23 to separate them from the Tree of Life lest they eat from it and live forever:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)

How did they lose their immortality between Genesis 1:26-27 and Genesis 3:22-23?

Is immortality that fleeting?

...is totally inert and thus null and void. I mean.. of course, Scripture is not inert or null or void, of course, but your "point" is.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[PinSeeker]

No. I claim that 'humans" are spirit being incarcerated into the human form. When you get that, then re-read what I wrote...

Well that's not right, either, William. We will always have our human form... well, at least now, in this life, and after the resurrection anyway. But the question is whether we are spiritually alive or not.

Grace and peace to you.

[William]

No. I claim that 'humans" are spirit being incarcerated into the human form. When you get that, then re-read what I wrote...

Well that's not right, either, William. We will always have our human form... well, at least now, in this life, and after the resurrection anyway. But the question is whether we are spiritually alive or not.

Grace and peace to you.

Oops no - that is not the case. Rather we have - through various means - being lead to believe that we are simply the flesh which has soul...rather than the spirit which has a body...of course I have already said this and explained in in more detail in my previous posts, so you would have to read those and make a case for your argument against this, based on what I have shown.

Best not jump into threads and cherry pick comments without knowing what it is they have been arguing PinSeeker.