Predestination Theology

[William]

I don't think the false predestination god should be the one to define that seeing how he is willing to torture people eternally for conditions that he placed on them. The false predestination god is a sicko.

Q:1 Is there a "True Predestination God?"

Q2: Even if hellish experiences exist for individuals, does this mean that the god is "a sicko"?

Or

Q:2.1 Is the god only a "Sicko" if those hellish experiences last forever for said individuals?

[tam]

Peace to you,

We CAN exist into eternity future, but that is not automatic.

Yes it is, because God made us in His image. I mean I'm not sure I'd say "automatic," but, well, a given.

I was going to say that it is not a given... but eternal life is given - it just is not given to everyone. So I changed it to automatic.

That is a gift (and does require eating from the Tree of Life).

No, eternal life is a gift ("...the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" [Romans 6:23]), and that does require having access to the tree of Life, which we believers will all have when Christ comes back, ushering in eternity and the kingdom in its fullness. Eternal life and eternal existence are two different things, and both are realities. Existence in eternity will be a reality for all, but eternal life will only be experienced by God's elect.

Eternal life is from God (through His Son).

Eternal existence is a doctrine of men, an interpretation of various things, but never taught by Christ and no distinction is made between eternal life and eternal existence. Life and death, yes. Life and existence, no. Equating existence and death is something man has done.

And there will be no more sin, no more suffering, every tear will be wiped from our eyes, and all sorrow and sighing will flee away. Forever.

If there are humans who exist in an eternal state of despair and suffering, weeping, sorrow, then that promise (that I bolded in your post) will never come true.

No, because that promise is only for those redeemed by Christ and residing in the new heaven and new earth with Him.

That promise is not qualified. There is no need. Because there are not going to be people existing eternally in sorrow, misery, weeping, suffering. Even if those who received life were somehow unaware of this - God would not be unaware. He would know that there is misery and suffering and agony and weeping for the rest of existence, never to end, always always, millions of trillions of years and not one second closer to relief.

That is abhorrent.

For a person to be aware of that - you don't think that will affect their own peace, their own joy, their own happiness, love?

We exist in a world of cause and effect; action and reaction. If something that negative exists in torment, there will be an effect on the rest of creation - certainly on those who know that there are people experiencing such misery without end. Ever.

There is no point to this. There is no need for this.

Even in the world of the dead now, that kind of suffering does not exist; the dead know nothing; they are sleeping - awaiting a resurrection. But for some reason (some) men have decided that they must be awakened so that they can then exist in conscious suffering for all eternity? Weeping, mourning, gnashing teeth - for all time, never ending. Ever.


At the very least no one can deny that God would have known the possibility that not everyone would come to life, that there would be enemies, that some would choose and receive death. Yet man thinks that God did not plan a failsafe to keep people from eternal conscious suffering? That He did not know how to plan for that possibility/actuality? His plan is much better than what (some) men have interpreted it as being.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #162]

At the very least no one can deny that God would have known the possibility that not everyone would come to life, that there would be enemies, that some would choose and receive death. Yet man thinks that God did not plan a failsafe to keep people from eternal conscious suffering? That He did not know how to plan for that possibility/actuality? His plan is much better than what (some) men have interpreted it as being.

I was wondering when it would get back to predestination.

The problem with the plan as you see it Tammy, is that it is short-sighted and hack and slash - not elegant enough for any being who Created our Universe to come up with.

See my posts at the beginning [and then throughout] this thread for more info on the much more elegant plan.

[2timothy316]

See my posts at the beginning [and then throughout] this thread for more info on the much more elegant plan.

Yet what is true is not based on your opinion of what is 'elegant'.

[PinSeeker]

We are not and will never be eternal in the sense of having existed in eternity past as God did -- we were created -- but we are certainly eternal in the sense that we will exist into eternity future. This is a very significant part of being made in God's image.

The problem with this is that it can cause more confusion than clarity.

No, it's clear enough. The problem is that people can "play" with this comment and create confusion. And that's what happens over and over in this forum.

When we understand that we have always existed and that we are "The Breath of The Creator" [re biblical mythology aka "In Gods Image"] and that the forms - human forms - which were created [and which we chose to be placed into] had the effect of blocking us off from that prior knowledge, [as we knew would happen, prior to incarnating into them], then the confusion dissipates significantly and the knowledge has the potential power to seal the fractal riffs.

Ah. A very gnostic statement...

Grace and peace to you

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #162]

At the very least no one can deny that God would have known the possibility that not everyone would come to life, that there would be enemies, that some would choose and receive death. Yet man thinks that God did not plan a failsafe to keep people from eternal conscious suffering? That He did not know how to plan for that possibility/actuality? His plan is much better than what (some) men have interpreted it as being.

I was wondering when it would get back to predestination.

The problem with the plan as you see it Tammy, is that it is short-sighted and hack and slash - not elegant enough for any being who Created our Universe to come up with.

See my posts at the beginning [and then throughout] this thread for more info on the much more elegant plan.

Yet what is true is not based on your opinion of what is 'elegant'.

Ah but it should be, given the obvious handiwork of a Creator of this Universe 2Timothy.

One has to consider that as a truth. The expectation of elegance over hack and slash is an acceptable expectation given the evidence.

For example, have you seen this recent scientific evidence of elegance within the Creation?



That is pure elegance. One therefore cannot expect "what is true" [insofar as a plan] to fall short of what is elegant.

So The Creator using all that time and effort which has gone into this creation, wasting the results in hack and slash mentality does not align with what we know of the Creation, so Christians have general got it wrong about what is going on and what will be happening in the next phase. This, because. what Christians generally believe about that, is less than elegant.

Whereas what I am saying about the studies into "afterlife", shows an elegance missing from most belief systems of Christianity.

Christian individuals would be of better service to All Truth, if they would simply drop such notions about The Creator which do not reflect the obvious elegance of the creation.

That is truth right there.

[William]

We are not and will never be eternal in the sense of having existed in eternity past as God did -- we were created -- but we are certainly eternal in the sense that we will exist into eternity future. This is a very significant part of being made in God's image.

The problem with this is that it can cause more confusion than clarity.

No, it's clear enough. The problem is that people can "play" with this comment and create confusion. And that's what happens over and over in this forum.

When we understand that we have always existed and that we are "The Breath of The Creator" [re biblical mythology aka "In Gods Image"] and that the forms - human forms - which were created [and which we chose to be placed into] had the effect of blocking us off from that prior knowledge, [as we knew would happen, prior to incarnating into them], then the confusion dissipates significantly and the knowledge has the potential power to seal the fractal riffs.

Ah. A very gnostic statement...

Grace and peace to you

Well "play" with my statement all you will, saying "Ah. A very gnostic statement..." doesn't, of itself, present any argument for or against mine.

Perhaps you have gone to think more on it and shall get back to me, dear PinSeeker...use the knowledge which has the potential power to seal the fractal riffs.

Universal Balance and Harmony

[2timothy316]

Yet what is true is not based on your opinion of what is 'elegant'.

Ah but it should be.

Only a person that thinks very highly of their own opinions and themselves wound say such a thing. I would recommend humility this situation. Meanwhile I have no reason to take your opinion as truth.

[William]

The Elegance of Creation should be reflected in the Plans of The Creator.

Through the realization that one is an eternal Spirit who has always existed as surely as "The Creators Breath" has always existed, is to begin ones journey into solving the deeper mysteries.

One can accept predestination as how a Creator would conduct Creation. It is like how scientists can predict through observation, only on far grander [Celestial] scales.

One can move completely away from being "Adam-Kind" who thought he was the flesh, and move elegantly into being "Christ-Kind" who knows they are Spirits Eternal.

The inability to accept truth over belief in preference to wishing belief was truth was foreseen by The Creator and so the next phase experience the individual Spirit has, will be one in which we each get to build that for ourselves, based upon said beliefs. The 'wish' is 'granted' and the belief become ones truth to experience as real.

In this way, the 'problem' of what happens to all those who don't happen to believe what you believe, is taken care of - elegantly.

They are not shamed and then destroyed, or sent to hellish environments, they are simply
'somewhere else' out of sight and mind from one those who wished for their destruction etc... while they continue to move towards all truth in their own good time and space which they created for there individual selves to experience...

I mean seriously, what is not to like about that plan?

Certainly the bulk of Christians have one thing in common with each other. They all believe they are going to experience 'good things' in the afterlife, so they are in good positions in that regard.

[William]

Yet what is true is not based on your opinion of what is 'elegant'.

Ah but it should be.

Only a person that thinks very highly of their own opinions and themselves wound say such a thing. I would recommend humility this situation. Meanwhile I have no reason to take your opinion as truth.

Strawman argument. It surprises me that you would use such an inelegant tactic 2Timothy.

I was not "thinking highly of my own opinion". I was stating how highly I think of The Creators elegance when I wrote;

"Ah but it should be, given the obvious handiwork of a Creator of this Universe 2Timothy.

One has to consider that as a truth. The expectation of elegance over hack and slash is an acceptable expectation given the evidence.

For example, have you seen this recent scientific evidence of elegance within the Creation?



That is pure elegance. One therefore cannot expect "what is true" [insofar as a plan] to fall short of what is elegant.

So The Creator using all that time and effort which has gone into this creation, wasting the results in hack and slash mentality does not align with what we know of the Creation, so Christians have general got it wrong about what is going on and what will be happening in the next phase. This, because. what Christians generally believe about that, is less than elegant.

Whereas what I am saying about the studies into "afterlife", shows an elegance missing from most belief systems of Christianity.

Christian individuals would be of better service to All Truth, if they would simply drop such notions about The Creator which do not reflect the obvious elegance of the creation.

That is truth right there."

Perhaps it is time for Christians of all denomination to stop ignoring the elegance in the room [creation]
Do you have anything more than straw to argue with 2Timothy?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to William in post #170]

It's your opinion of elegant that I don't trust and if you're depending on that as your truth, it's not enough for me. Where we look to for truth is not a strawman, it's very relevant and where you look is lacking. You're looking into clouds and finding shapes isn't proof of your ideas of truth. My source is the Bible and I let everyone know. As I recall you keep your sources secret and let no one know. Unless your opinion of elegant is one of your sources...if so...I see why you keep your sources secret. I see E=Mc2 as elegant but that is my opinion and it's not my opinion that makes it true.

The theory of relativity exposes that what we see of time is actually an illusion, meaning that what you are basing your belief system on starts on an illusion. Nothing you've been presenting can be taken as truth as it is based on your flawed perception of time.