Predestination Theology

[William]

I don't think the false predestination god should be the one to define that seeing how he is willing to torture people eternally for conditions that he placed on them. The false predestination god is a sicko.

Q:1 Is there a "True Predestination God?"

Q2: Even if hellish experiences exist for individuals, does this mean that the god is "a sicko"?

Or

Q:2.1 Is the god only a "Sicko" if those hellish experiences last forever for said individuals?

[PinSeeker]

Definition of immortal: living forever; never dying or decaying.

Right, referring to the temporal. The here and now. In this life. The present age. Sure.

Definition of eternal: lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.

Right, not referring to the temporal, but the eternal -- for us here in the temporal now, the age to come. And to break it out a bit, in reference to the beginning and the end, there is an eternal past and an eternal future. There is no eternity past for us; that belongs only to God (Father, Son, and Spirit) because He (They) had no beginning. As for us, when our mortal lives are over... see? no such thing as immortality..' eternity begins for us, and thus eternity future.

If we can agree that mankind had a beginning when God created Adam and Eve in Genesis 1:26-26 then the appropriate word to describe mankind would be that man is mortal or immortal.

We agree that man is mortal, but man is also eternal. See above.

The Bible states that man is mortal and will die. You claim that mankind is "eternal." If mankind is eternal and exists forever as you claim, then explain why God had to separate them from the Tree of Life "lest they eat from it and live forever["?

See above. Mortality and eternality are two entirely different things. Maybe at some point you will be able to bring yourself to acknowledge the distinction.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

We agree that man is mortal, but man is also eternal.

If mankind is eternal and exists forever as you claim, then why did God separate them from the Tree of Life "lest they eat from it and live forever"?

Is eternal not forever?

Does God not understand how He created man?

Or does he also believe the serpent's lie that man shall not surely die?

========================================

If man is eternal like the angels, why didn't God simply create more angels to replace those who rebelled?

Be expeditious!

[William]

We agree that man is mortal, but man is also eternal.

If mankind is eternal and exists forever as you claim, then why did God separate them from the Tree of Life "lest they eat from it and live forever"?

Is eternal not forever?

The difference is to enable an explanation of the difference between the station of The Creator and the station of the created, in relation to beliefs formulated through human experience.

Spirit bodies [forms] were created to last forever. They had a beginning.
The human form was created to last as long as its use-by date so an element within the fruit of the Tree of Life was required in order to allow for a reaction to take place in order to counteract the use-by date properties of the form - essentially make it last longer.

Your belief that the fruit of the ToL need only be eaten the once, clouds the understanding. The evidence re the storyline [in how long Adam's form lasted after he lost access to the fruit] bears witness to this. Also to take into account, a tree bearing fruit has the purpose of providing a continuous supple of said fruit, also bearing witness that the fruit needed to be consumed on occasions, rather than simply once.

One could say [and so shall say] that it is possible that the pair wondered often about the fruit of the other [forbidden] tree [about the feel, taste and effects] when eating of the fruit of the ToL...after all, it is only human to wonder at what one is not allowed.

But anyway, the difference between eternal and forever and the point I think PinSeeker is trying to make, is that Adam was not an eternal being, [for only The Creator is] which would seem to be true given the subtle difference. Only it is not true because...

...Spirit is eternal.

Form [material or not] is anything between being everlasting to being temporary. It is not, however, eternal as in having no beginning or end. All form is created. All form is material, not immaterial. Only Spirit within form is immaterial.

The attraction of the belief that 'spirits are created' is that it helps theist dodge the problem of evil by separating The Creator completely from the creation. It is a clever dodge on the surface, but underneath the surface, has created a whole conundrum of associated problems which needn't be, and create false images believed to be real.

The Creator Itself, is without form. Formless. immaterial. Literally a Ghost. Was never created. Is Eternal.

This way of thinking is perhaps the fundamental reason for why predestination is the better way to understand the Creator and The Creation, for it is the antidote to those underlying problems.

[William]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #113]

If mankind is eternal and exists forever as you claim, then why did God separate them from the Tree of Life "lest they eat from it and live forever"?

Imagine if you will - spirits existing inside the forms of Adam and Eve, [humanity/"mankind"] who use the human form to ...do whatever that form allows them to do...

How did that happen?

Spirits are - when without form - altogether The Creator. Indistinguishable from The Creator. Like the smallest physical particle yet to be discovered through the Hadron Collider is the fundamental "block" in which all other particles are "made up of" or "Made in the image of".

Put these Spirits into containers [form] and the container acts as a type of birthing chamber...giving the spirit occupying it, the experience of whatever that form was created to give it.

"Mankind" is basically the container which holds the spirits and when one confuses the form as being "who one is" [the body] one has forgotten "Who one truly is" [The Spirit]

The design properties of The Spirit breathed within Adams form meant that The Spirit occupying it effectively "Forgot what it truly was" and thus took on the identification of the form and "became the form" in his own mind.

Until Spirits thus incarnated [Humankind] realize that this is what is going on, they are stuck with the lesser identification and have not 'found their way back home" as it were.

[William]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #113]

Does God not understand how He created man?

The Creator certainly does understand how the form of human was created, and why it was specifically created the way it was. To house spirits within and take away their memory of ever having being spirits in order to thus give them a sense of a beginning.

The fruit of the ToL was in order for the spirits who now think they are humans, to have a form they could occupy indefinitely. That was taken away from them when they proved to show definite signs of being something The Creator had not created their form for the purpose of. The addition of knowledge of good and evil acquired the way that it was, proved to be destructive, and thus loosening [freeing] said spirits from the containers designed to keep them indefinitely in, and creating havoc elsewhere...

"Indefinitely" too, isn't the same state as "forever" isn't the same state as "Eternal"

[William]

Or does he also believe the serpent's lie that man shall not surely die?

Essentially it can indeed be argued that The Serpent did lie about that. Unless The Serpent was speaking directly to the true identity of The Spirit within the body of the man. It which case he was not lying...but still not telling the whole truth either...

So in that, it depends upon whether the Serpent knew the ins and outs of story of how The Creator created human form and placed spirits into said form.

Since The Serpent is regarded in common Christian Mythology to being Lucifer [Satan] it can be argued that he did indeed, know the background story of creation of Man.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #113]

Does God not understand how He created man?

The Creator certainly does understand how the form of human was created, and why it was specifically created the way it was. To house spirits within and take away their memory of ever having being spirits in order to thus give them a sense of a beginning.

The fruit of the ToL was in order for the spirits who now think they are humans, to have a form they could occupy indefinitely. That was taken away from them when they proved to show definite signs of being something The Creator had not created their form for the purpose of. The addition of knowledge of good and evil acquired the way that it was, proved to be destructive, and thus loosening [freeing] said spirits from the containers designed to keep them indefinitely in, and creating havoc elsewhere...

"Indefinitely" too, isn't the same state as "forever" isn't the same state as "Eternal"

Just when I think I've heard everything. This is without a doubt one the strangest doctrines I've come across.

First, I'll need a "William Published Dictionary" because there are new meanings to words that it seems only William has. Something is made to last or it wasn't. This is an absolute condition there is no in between. I understand that something made to live for eternity can be given conditions to keep that eternity. Still, the Bible is clear that a soul can be destroyed. (Matthew 10:28) Everything other than God Himself can be destroyed.

Second, where does this doctrine even come from? Who is teaching it? I know the source is not the Bible because the Bible says that the Earth was made specifically for mankind and not spirit creatures to come to. As the Bible says A&E started off as male and female and not spirits. (Ps 37:29, 115:15,16, Isaiah 45:18, Gen 1:27, 28)

[onewithhim]

I don't think the false predestination god should be the one to define that seeing how he is willing to torture people eternally for conditions that he placed on them. The false predestination god is a sicko.

Q:1 Is there a "True Predestination God?"

The Bible supports the doctrine of predestination. Accepting this based on the authority of the Bible and it's claim that the God described in the Bible truly exists, then the answer is a resounding, "Yes!"

Tcg

Just how does the Bible support that doctrine? It has been set forth in other discussions that God did not choose individuals to rule with Christ when He put into motion the plan to send a Savior. Jehovah had this plan for a group of people to rule with Christ, but had not chosen individuals as of yet. That misunderstanding on your part is the sole basis for believing that the Bible supports predestination. Otherwise it is clear that God has never predestined anyone to go here or there. He has given everyone a CHOICE, as it is clear to anyone taking into consideration all of the Bible and not a couple of misunderstood verses.

"...I have put life and death before you...and you must CHOOSE life in order that you may keep alive." (Deuteronomy 30:19)


.

This is a slam-dunk. Nothing more need be said.

[William]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #112]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #113]

Does God not understand how He created man?

The Creator certainly does understand how the form of human was created, and why it was specifically created the way it was. To house spirits within and take away their memory of ever having being spirits in order to thus give them a sense of a beginning.

The fruit of the ToL was in order for the spirits who now think they are humans, to have a form they could occupy indefinitely. That was taken away from them when they proved to show definite signs of being something The Creator had not created their form for the purpose of. The addition of knowledge of good and evil acquired the way that it was, proved to be destructive, and thus loosening [freeing] said spirits from the containers designed to keep them indefinitely in, and creating havoc elsewhere...

"Indefinitely" too, isn't the same state as "forever" isn't the same state as "Eternal"

Just when I think I've heard everything.

Impossible...unless you are The Creator...

This is without a doubt one the strangest doctrines I've come across.

It is not a "Doctrine". It is simply information gathered from a variety of doctrines and other sources...Why is it strange to you?

First, I'll need a "William Published Dictionary" because there are new meanings to words that it seems only William has.

The internet is your friend. That is where I got the information from, regarding the subtle differences between "Eternal" and "Forever/everlasting".
When Member Pinseeker mentioned it, I went immediately in and eyeballed the information for myself.

Something is made to last or it wasn't. This is an absolute condition there is no in between.

No - you are incorrect. In relation to this universe, and making things, {creating} different things have different use-by dates. Why it is even possible to create things which have a specific frame in time in which it can be used before it ceases to function as first intended. There is even a name for it. "Planned Obsolescence" and is specific to economics and industrial design.

I understand that something made to live for eternity can be given conditions to keep that eternity.

Eternity is the state of the eternal. The Creator holds that position. Anything which can thus be "made to live for eternity" still requires an Eternal being to "Make that something alive" forever. The object does not 'animate itself'.

The object being "made alive" is itself, created, and so has a beginning. Even if the object is created which can last forever, it nonetheless has not always existed if it was created.

Still, the Bible is clear that a soul can be destroyed. (Matthew 10:28) Everything other than God Himself can be destroyed.

Then one would have to consider that "a soul" is not a living thing, but a document of some kind - or something akin to a Flash Drive, which holds information which can be saved by storing said information in a larger Facility, or be deleted, depending upon its relevance to The Creator.

Second, where does this doctrine even come from?

It is not a "Doctrine". It is simply information gathered from a variety of doctrines and other sources...

Who is teaching it?

If by 'teaching' you mean "sharing the information" then that would be me, in this circumstance.
The information is currently still in bytes but much of it is starting to show itself on the internet as folk who are seeking alternative information than what has been traditionally given to the masses, start to put the pieces of information together. The conclusions drawn from this, naturally enough lead to more information and wider conclusion to draw off of.
Conclusions too, are not static and unchangeable.

I know the source is not the Bible because the Bible says that the Earth was made specifically for mankind and not spirit creatures to come to.

I have had everyone from Catholic to Jehovah's Witnesses tell me that they believe Lucifer crashed this party and rules this world, and that Satan is also a "Spirit Being" so your statement above seems to contradict those organization's beliefs systems [doctrines].

I do not agree with you on your belief that the Bible states that the earth was created specifically for mankind, but even if that were the case, the Bible is clear enough that "Mankind"...how did I word it in a prior post...

""Mankind" is basically the container which holds the spirits and when one confuses the form as being "who one is" [the body] one has forgotten "Who one truly is" [The Spirit]" {Post#114}

As the Bible says A&E started off as male and female and not spirits. (Ps 37:29, 115:15,16, Isaiah 45:18, Gen 1:27, 28)

Their forms were "male and female" - The design properties of human form The Spirit-Creator breathed into, The Spirit [breath] occupying it effectively "Forgot what it truly was" and thus took on the identification of the form and "became the form" in it's own mind.
Thus "Adam" became a "human being" because he had no memory of a prior existence.

Until Spirits thus incarnated [Humankind] realize that this is what is going on, they are stuck with the lesser identification and have not 'found their way back home" as it were.

(Ps 37:29, 115:15,16, Isaiah 45:18, Gen 1:27, 28) simply speaks to the reasons for why The Creator placed - what effectively is an aspect of Its own Self - into human form.

So yes - much of the information regarding my "doctrine" as you referred to it - does come from the Bible itself...and is interpreted in the manner that it is, based upon the revelation that the one interpreting it, understands [himself] to being a Spirit and all Spirit is sourced with The Creator and are aspects of The Creator and therefore imperishable...have always existed and ever will exist.

One can only [and therefore will only] interpret the bible [and all else] in relation to how they identify their self. If one thinks of oneself as the flesh, one will only ever interpret the world through the understanding of that self identification. [1 John 3:1]

Strange the information might be - true it is nonetheless.
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

[2timothy316]

Second, where does this doctrine even come from?

It is not a "Doctrine". It is simply information gathered from a variety of doctrines and other sources...

......so it's based on other doctrines but its not a doctrine....ok. I guess the word doctrine is different from the internet.
Doctrine: "a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief."

Is this not a principle or position or belief you telling me? Again, I need the "William Dictionary".

I'm curious if you vetted these other 'sources'. Can you name any of these 'sources'? Do you just walk along and suddenly hear something and think, "I'll add that to my own doctrine or non-doctrine or dogma or whatever I'm calling it these days." How does one gather things from a variety of doctrines and other sources and then why is it called true? There are many posters on here that do the same thing and come up with very different doctrines from each other each one calling the other wrong....could it be possible all people that come up with their own beliefs are wrong?