Predestination Theology

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Predestination Theology

Post #1

Post by William »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:01 pm I don't think the false predestination god should be the one to define that seeing how he is willing to torture people eternally for conditions that he placed on them. The false predestination god is a sicko.
Q:1 Is there a "True Predestination God?"

Q2: Even if hellish experiences exist for individuals, does this mean that the god is "a sicko"?

Or

Q:2.1 Is the god only a "Sicko" if those hellish experiences last forever for said individuals?

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Re: Predestination Theology

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Post by PinSeeker »

[Replying to William in post #1]

The only thing I will say regarding these "questions" is, the concept of predestination is clearly in the Bible in multiple places (Acts 4:24-28, Romans 8:29-30, and Ephesians 1:5 and 1:11 in particular). That being the case, if one takes God (in these cases through Luke and Paul, respectively) at His word, then that person has to deal with it in some manner and come to terms with it.

Grace and peace to you, William.

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Re: Predestination Theology

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Post by Dimmesdale »

William wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:07 pm
Q:1 Is there a "True Predestination God?"
It seems to me that is what can be deduced from the Christian scriptures. If you ask me though, I do not believe the Christian scriptures in their totality, so I do not need to hold to this view.
William wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:07 pm
Q2: Even if hellish experiences exist for individuals, does this mean that the god is "a sicko"?

Or

Q:2.1 Is the god only a "Sicko" if those hellish experiences last forever for said individuals?

Image
If hellish experiences exist, that shows there is some form of justice in the world, assuming hell is about meting out justice. If hell is not about justice, but only torture for torture's sake, mere meaningless sadism, then hell is not hell in the theological sense, and the God who metes out that punishment is not properly God, because God can't by definition be a torturing sadist. A sadist can't be God just like a demon or a psychopath can't be God. That is contradictory. God is by definition Good, the Highest Being. A sadist in other words is a very low, unevolved being who is primarily selfish. God is completely selfless and free.

It can be however asked whether God would have a tendency to hurt others the same way humans do and still be holy and good, and NOT a sadist. It seems to me God would have a different view of justice than we do. But that would still be justice. God in my view does not have the same sorts of emotions we do. He is on an entirely different platform.

It doesn't matter whether hell lasts forever or a moment. What matters is whether it is an accurate expression of justice. If it is, then the given standard of justice at hand ought to determine the duration of said punishment.

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Re: Predestination Theology

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Post by onewithhim »

Why another thread about predestination? It has already been discussed, quite thoroughly, within the thread "Did God Predestinate Humans to Go to Hell?"

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Re: Predestination Theology

Post #5

Post by William »

onewithhim wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:00 pm Why another thread about predestination? It has already been discussed, quite thoroughly, within the thread "Did God Predestinate Humans to Go to Hell?"
Do you have any answers to the OP questions? Your comment alone is not relevant to the thread topic, as far as I can tell...

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Re: Predestination Theology

Post #6

Post by Tcg »

William wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:07 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:01 pm I don't think the false predestination god should be the one to define that seeing how he is willing to torture people eternally for conditions that he placed on them. The false predestination god is a sicko.
Q:1 Is there a "True Predestination God?"
The Bible supports the doctrine of predestination. Accepting this based on the authority of the Bible and it's claim that the God described in the Bible truly exists, then the answer is a resounding, "Yes!"


Q2: Even if hellish experiences exist for individuals, does this mean that the god is "a sicko"?

Or

Q:2.1 Is the god only a "Sicko" if those hellish experiences last forever for said individuals?
It would depend on the reason for the hellish experience. If it is experienced simply because one lacks belief in God for instance, then that God would be a "sicko." If the hellish experience is caused by this or some other equally unjust reason, then the length of that experience would only determine the degree of sickness. It is of course hard to imagine any transgression that would justify a hellish experience that lasts forever.
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Re: Predestination Theology

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Post by Purple Knight »

William wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:07 pmQ2: Even if hellish experiences exist for individuals, does this mean that the god is "a sicko"?
On the topic of creating beings who are predestined to suffer, what about the people who breed pugs or twistycats? (Yes, twistycats are a thing; their forelegs are often extremely deformed, though some are simply short.)

What about the human beings who bring more human beings into this world well knowing they'll suffer and knowing the world is overpopulated? You know, if you stop breeding, God will presumably not be powerless to create more people to suffer and predestine for Hell, but he'll be forced to have them pop up out of wells or have jackals bear them or some such nonsense, in which case, alright, then it's solely his fault.

You're all complicit is my point. I'm complicit because I breed cats. I don't intentionally breed for defects, but I'm forced to say it's not wrong that an occasional individual is born too weak to live or feed, or disfigured, or defective somehow, because what's the alternative? Well, to not have any cats, or to stop breeding them as pets and let them be feral. I can't see that as being better. Now, you can certainly say, why did God impose those natural laws and make most mutations harmful or neutral, he's the one at fault, and very well he is. But if it's really wrong to bring creatures into a world because they'll suffer, I ought not to be participating either. So I'm complicit.

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Re: Predestination Theology

Post #8

Post by myth-one.com »

PinSeeker wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:59 am [Replying to William in post #1]

The only thing I will say regarding these "questions" is, the concept of predestination is clearly in the Bible in multiple places (Acts 4:24-28, Romans 8:29-30, and Ephesians 1:5 and 1:11 in particular). That being the case, if one takes God (in these cases through Luke and Paul, respectively) at His word, then that person has to deal with it in some manner and come to terms with it.

Grace and peace to you, William.
Dealing with "predestination":

If God has foreknowledge of how every individual will live their lives, then God knows who will accept and reject Jesus as their Savior from the wages of their sins in the future.

God then elects or predestines those to be granted salvation as those who will accept Jesus as their Savior in the future.

All others (those who will reject Jesus in their future) will be predestined to everlasting death.

Therefore, the choice as to whether a person will be saved or not is no longer in God’s will, but it is in that person’s future choice about God’s gift of grace — whether to accept or reject Jesus.

==============================================

Under that explanation, there is no conflict between the elect and John 3:16.

That is, the "elect" becomes the same as the "whosoever believeth" in John 3:16:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)


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Re: Predestination Theology

Post #9

Post by onewithhim »

Tcg wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:44 pm
William wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:07 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:01 pm I don't think the false predestination god should be the one to define that seeing how he is willing to torture people eternally for conditions that he placed on them. The false predestination god is a sicko.
Q:1 Is there a "True Predestination God?"
The Bible supports the doctrine of predestination. Accepting this based on the authority of the Bible and it's claim that the God described in the Bible truly exists, then the answer is a resounding, "Yes!"

Tcg
Just how does the Bible support that doctrine? It has been set forth in other discussions that God did not choose individuals to rule with Christ when He put into motion the plan to send a Savior. Jehovah had this plan for a group of people to rule with Christ, but had not chosen individuals as of yet. That misunderstanding on your part is the sole basis for believing that the Bible supports predestination. Otherwise it is clear that God has never predestined anyone to go here or there. He has given everyone a CHOICE, as it is clear to anyone taking into consideration all of the Bible and not a couple of misunderstood verses.

"...I have put life and death before you...and you must CHOOSE life in order that you may keep alive." (Deuteronomy 30:19)


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Re: Predestination Theology

Post #10

Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:24 pm Dealing with "predestination"

If God has foreknowledge of how every individual will live their lives, then God knows who will accept and reject Jesus as their Savior from the wages of their sins in the future. God then elects or predestines those to be granted salvation as those who will accept Jesus as their Savior in the future. All others (those who will reject Jesus in their future) will be predestined to everlasting death. Therefore, the choice as to whether a person will be saved or not is no longer in God’s will, but it is in that person’s future choice about God’s gift of grace — whether to accept or reject Jesus. Under that explanation, there is no conflict between the elect and John 3:16. That is, the "elect" becomes the same as the "whosoever believeth" in John 3:16...
Well, let's just say -- just for the sake of discussion -- that I agree with your take. Given that I am in agreement -- which I am not, but again, we're just discussing this -- I see a direct conflict between what you have said here and the what Paul says in Romans 9, particularly "... not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel... (God) says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." If what you said is "A," then what Paul is saying is "NOT A," and the two cannot be reconciled. So, a little rethinking is in order, because Scripture is true and does not conflict... anywhere.

Regarding "whosoever believeth" -- again -- that idea and even that phraseology comes from the prophet Joel Paul draws upon that very passage, too, in Romans 9. So we need to look there, in Joel 2, to see and understand the full context. Joel says, “...And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls." So you see, it is the LORD who calls, and THEN those whom God has called will call on the LORD and be saved. John and Paul are both drawing from this very passage.

Regarding "foreknowledge" -- the common meaning of 'to foreknow' is to know something beforehand, in advance of its happening, but this is obviously not the apostle Paul's meaning in Romans 8:29-30 for at least three reasons:

1. God foreknows everybody and everything, whereas Paul is referring to a particular group.

2. If God predestines people because they are going to believe, then the ground of their salvation is in themselves and their merit, instead of in Him and His mercy, whereas Paul's whole emphasis is on God's free initiative of grace.

3. The verb 'to know' as it is used here in the Greek expresses much more than mere intellectual cognition; it denotes a personal relationship of care and affection. When God 'knows' people, He watches over them and cares for them. In Hebrew it's the same thing; in the Old Testament, Israel was the only people out of all the families of the earth whom YHVH had 'known,' that is, loved, chosen, and formed a covenant with. The meaning of 'foreknowledge' here and elsewhere in the New Testament is intimately similar. "Know' is used in a sense practically synonymous with 'love,' and "whom He foreknew" here in Romans 8 is synonymous with "whom He foreloved" -- sovereignly and distinguishingly chose, before the foundation of the world.

The ONLY source of divine election and predestination is divine love.

Grace and peace to all.

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