Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

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Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

This thread covers an interesting and important subject for us to discuss and debate.

This first post is brief, and asks these questions:

1). What is this Genesis 1:27 scripture telling us, as you understand it, about God, and about mankind?
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
2a). Does the Bible give any direct or specific answers to question 1, in this verse, or anywhere else?

2b). If you conclude it does, where are the verses and what do they specify?

If you conclude it does not, why doesn't it do so?


3). The previous verse puts our subject in a different way.
26 Then God said, “Let Us/us make man in Our/our image, after our/Our likeness, to rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it.”
3a). Why is the difference there; plural in this verse, 26, and singular in verse 27?

3b). Who is "our/Our" and "Us/us" referring to? God as a Trinity, the angels, or?

3c). Do Christianity and Judaism give different answers to question 3b?
If so, what, and why?

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Re: Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #31

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

I hope neither of you minds the contribution, but...
[Replying to Miles in post #30]

However, I'm curious as to where it's stated that everything said in Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers only apply to Israelites. Is there some chapter and verse or is this a notion that comes from your theology/apologetics?
Because the law (given via Moses) was part of the covenant between Israel (the 12 tribes) and God. You cannot force other parties to adhere to the terms of a covenant (a contract) if they were never party to that covenant (contract) to begin with. That is not the way contracts (covenants) work. That law (given via Moses) was binding to the parties of that covenant (contract) only.


If one is in Christ, one is part of the new covenant, and the law of the new covenant - which is written upon the heart - is love. Not just love for one's neighbors, but love also for one's enemies. Love also does not steal, love does not bear false witness against one's neighbor, love does not commit adultery, love does not murder, etc.


But no one can be bound by the terms of a contract that they were never party to, to begin with.



Peace again to you both,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #32

Post by Miles »

Checkpoint wrote:
Miles wrote:
So the Ten Commandments don't apply to you either. Hmmm, how very odd.

However, I'm curious as to where it's stated that everything said in Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers only apply to Israelites. Is there some chapter and verse or is this a notion that comes from your theology/apologetics?
No. the 10 commandments do apply to me as a Christian.
Hold on. You just got done saying that the instructions comprising Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers only apply to Israelites. And that you're not an Israelite. But now you try to claim what, that you are an Israelite or that you're an exception to the rule? What gives, the goal posts?

Checkpoint wrote:My theology/apologetics comes from the New Testament/Covenant.
Got any slaves you want to sell? How about the women in your church, are they all holding their to tongues? and what about those one-eyed lusting perverts in your church. They getting along okay? And how about this one from Matthew 5:32 "whoever marries a divorced woman is guilty of adultery." My bet is that you couldn't count the number of such adulterers in your church on two hands. OR are you free to cherry pick the New Testament as you pretty much see fit?


.

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Re: Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #33

Post by Checkpoint »

Miles wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:17 am
Checkpoint wrote:
Miles wrote:
So the Ten Commandments don't apply to you either. Hmmm, how very odd.

However, I'm curious as to where it's stated that everything said in Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers only apply to Israelites. Is there some chapter and verse or is this a notion that comes from your theology/apologetics?
No. the 10 commandments do apply to me as a Christian.
Hold on. You just got done saying that the instructions comprising Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers only apply to Israelites. And that you're not an Israelite. But now you try to claim what, that you are an Israelite or that you're an exception to the rule? What gives, the goal posts?


The goalposts have been giving from the start of our exchange.

It was at that point, the very beginning, they were lost. This thread was about "made in His image, not about what we have tried to discuss.

We are going nowhere.

Checkpoint wrote:My theology/apologetics comes from the New Testament/Covenant.
-qu9te=Got any slaves you want to sell? How about the women in your church, are they all holding their to tongues? and what about those one-eyed lusting perverts in your church. They getting along okay? And how about this one from Matthew 5:32 "whoever marries a divorced woman is guilty of adultery." My bet is that you couldn't count the number of such adulterers in your church on two hands. OR are you free to cherry pick the New Testament as you pretty much see fit?


.
Charming.

Just like I said, we are going nowhere.

So well illustrated as you express what you imagine and suspect goes on "in your church".

Bye for now, Miles.

Until we do cross paths again, may God bless you and surprise you.

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Re: Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #34

Post by Eloi »

The Bible shows in many ways that Jesus had a beginning (Rev. 3:14). The simple fact of saying that he is the image of God (2 Cor. 4:4), shows that he had an origin (Col. 1:15-18), because to be the image of someone, that someone must be obviously prior and the image created later out of what he/it resembles.

When Jehovah speaks with someone else at the beginning of the rest of creation, it is obvious He is talking to His Firstborn, his begotten Son (John 1:1-3). It is obvious also, that if He made Jesus at His own image, saying that God would be making man to "their" image and likeness shows that the Firstborn was made at the image and likeness of God before. Perfect man, like Adam when created, was made at the image of both, of Jesus, and of God, the original and real source of every perfect intelligent creature in the Universe. Luk. 3:38 says that Adam was son of God.

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Re: Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #35

Post by historia »

Miles wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:34 pm
My guess is that the writer of 27 never heard of verse 26. After all its format is quite different---a heavily indented block rather than the border-to-border format like the rest of the chapter in many Bibles.
Miles wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:17 pm
Sorry, but I fail to see the poetry, as evidently do other modern bibles, such as the 2020 American Standard Bible.
Your argument here is rather confused. On the one hand, you said the author of v. 27 is perhaps different from that of v. 26 because verse 27 is formatted with "a heavily indented block." But now you're pointing out that verse 27 is not formatted that way in some translations. So, what is your argument then?
Miles wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:17 pm
historia wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:16 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:01 pm
historia wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:34 pm
Jews today interpret this as a reference to angels (which, ontologically, are not that different from gods)
If they're ontologically no different than gods, just how do they differ?
Generally speaking, the gods were thought of as independent agents. By contrast, in late-Jewish and Christian thought, angels are considered to be servants and messengers of God.
So these other divine beings, not being independent agents, are what, demigods, angels, and demons?
Yes, Jews interpret this as a reference to angels, which is what I said originally.
Miles wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:17 pm
historia wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:16 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:01 pm
And speaking of gods, why would god, thee omnipotent being, need assistance from the other gods to create humans?
It's unlikely the original author thought of Elohim (= God) as omnipotent. Nevertheless, in the final form of the story, God alone creates mankind.
So what does one do with:
Genesis 1:26
And God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness; . . . .
"Pick and choose" to ignore it?
No, if one is a Jew, one can interpret the "us" and "our" as God referring to the angels.

If one is a Christian, one can interpret it as a reference to the persons of the Trinity.

But, again, I'm just repeating what I've already said.
Miles wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:17 pm
historia wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:16 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:34 pm
With more than 45,000 denominations globally, it says that choosing a denomination is pretty much a crap-shoot. And because so many denominations claim to be the only way to salvation it would appear to be critical crap-shoot
This is an old atheist trope that really should be retired.
Thing is, the source here isn't atheistic but Christian centered. The Center for the Study of Global Christianity, the linked source, is "an academic research center that monitors worldwide demographic trends in Christianity that serve churches, mission agencies, NGOs, and others."
Sure, but the original source also explicitly acknowledges they are using the term 'denomination' in a highly technical (non-standard) way. Using that number in an atheist polemic while ignoring the non-standard definition is what makes this a trope.
Miles wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:17 pm
If there are two different definitions of "denomination" and you can show we are using two different definitions please do so.
So, most people (and your argument) assume something like this definition for denomination, from Wikipedia:
Wikipedia wrote:
A Christian denomination is a distinct religious body within Christianity that comprises all church congregations of the same kind, identifiable by traits such as a name, peculiar history, organization, leadership, theological doctrine, worship style and sometimes a founder.
Makes sense. On that definition, the Roman Catholic Church, for example, is one denomination.

But the Center for the Study of Global Christianity counts each denomination per country, so that the same denomination is counted multiple times depending on how many countries it is in. From the source you cited:
Center for the Study of Global Christianity wrote:
Denominations are defined and measured at the country level, creating a large number of separate denominations within Christian families and Christian traditions. For example, the presence of the Catholic Church in the world’s 234 countries results in 234 Catholic “denominations”
They even put the term "denominations" here in quotes to show this is a non-standard definition. So citing their number of 45,000 as you have here is dubious, at best. This is not what most people mean by "denomination."

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Re: Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #36

Post by Peter the Apostle »

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #1]

Being created in the image and likeness of God means that humans are made or design to be righteous, holy, truth-seeker, doer of good works.

and put on the new self, which in the LIKENESS OF GOD has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
— Ephesians 4:24

For we are His workmanship, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
— Ephesians 2:10

God was declaring in genesis 1:26-27 that he will create man, with the Holy Spirit through his Son.

He was in the beginning with God. ALL THINGS came into being through Him, and APART FROM HIM NOTHING came into being that has come into being.
— John 1:2-3

“The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
“From everlasting I was established,
From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
— Proverbs 8:22-23

While He had not yet made the earth and the fields,
Nor the first dust of the world.
— Proverbs 8:26

Then I was beside Him, as a MASTER WORKMAN;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
Rejoicing in the world, His EARTH,
And having my delight in the sons of MEN.
— Proverbs 8:30-31

For BY HIM ALL THINGS WERE CREATED, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities⁠—all things have been created THROUGH HIM and for Him.
— Colossians 1:16

You send forth YOUR SPIRIT, they are CREATED;
And You renew the face of the ground.
— Psalm 104:30

The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the SPIRIT OF GOD was moving over the surface of the waters.
— Genesis 1:2

“The Spirit of God has made me,
And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
— Job 33:4

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Re: Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #37

Post by onewithhim »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:33 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:01 pm
Genesis 1:26
And God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.”

AND, just who are these other gods anyway?
Not gods (plural) god (singular): scripture indicates YHWH was speaking to The Word, his first and foremost spirit creation; later known as the human Jesus Christ.




Image




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Always a scriptural answer. Could anyone refute those comments which are backed up by the Bible? The links to reasonable material are also helpful.

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Re: Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #38

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #37]
Not gods (plural) god (singular): scripture indicates YHWH was speaking to The Word, his first and foremost spirit creation; later known as the human Jesus Christ.
Maybe, maybe not; can anyone be really sure about who He meant, and/or what is conveyed by "Let us/Us make man"..."in Our/our image".

I for sure am not, and do not expect to be in this life.

As for "the Word/Logos, this is another paradox to me.

I do not accept the usual explanation.

I also do not accept yours, "The Word, his first and foremost spirit creation; later known as the human Jesus Christ."

What I understand is that "the Logos became/was made flesh, and dwelt among us" as Jesus Christ, the Father's only-begotten son, whom He called "My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased", and commanded us to "Listen to him".

Yes, he is thus foremost or pre-eminent; but no, not as "first and foremost spiritual creation", like an angel.

I simply prefer what Matthew and Luke tell us of his virgin conception by the Spirit.

Guess I just though this may interest you as an aside, not intended to engender debate.

I really prefer to leave it at that!

I trust life is treating you well these days, onewithhim.

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Re: Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #39

Post by peacedove »

Checkpoint wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:05 am This thread covers an interesting and important subject for us to discuss and debate.

This first post is brief, and asks these questions:

1). What is this Genesis 1:27 scripture telling us, as you understand it, about God, and about mankind?
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
2a). Does the Bible give any direct or specific answers to question 1, in this verse, or anywhere else?

2b). If you conclude it does, where are the verses and what do they specify?

If you conclude it does not, why doesn't it do so?


3). The previous verse puts our subject in a different way.
26 Then God said, “Let Us/us make man in Our/our image, after our/Our likeness, to rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it.”
3a). Why is the difference there; plural in this verse, 26, and singular in verse 27?

3b). Who is "our/Our" and "Us/us" referring to? God as a Trinity, the angels, or?

3c). Do Christianity and Judaism give different answers to question 3b?
If so, what, and why?
The text quite specifically addresses the question of in what respect man differs from the animals. The difference is not the 'breath of life' it is not the 'soul' or 'being' of man, as the animals have the same language and nature. It is not immortality, since man is dust of the land, mortal. In fact the text and the context is the man is an animal (e.g. Ecc. 3:18-21).

Man's difference is that he is to rule the animals. It follows that the 'image of God' is the right or power to rule. God has the right and power to rule, and he delegates and appoints man as his co-ruler or vice-regents in the world. For example, Col. 1 uses the image language in connection with headship, and birth as a son:
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Christ's work in rulership and ascendancy to domination and power is his expression or revelation of his status as the image of God.

We can understand the 'image of God' language by looking at some of its alternative expressions: being 'father' (superior), or being born or adopted as a 'son,' for example. The father is the higher king, and the son is the lower king. Adam's status as the son of God (Luke 3:8) is equal to him being made in the image of God. The phrase 'like father, like son' shows that the son bears the likeness (power) of the father. This father-son language is very common in the bible to refer to status and power, for example, Israel is God's son, Ex. 4:22, but more importantly, the Israelites, as individuals, are all sons of God (Deut. 14:1). The status of 'image of God' is in each man, and in particular, in each man with his woman: 'male and female' i.e. monogamy. The woman is in the image of man, because the man is the head of his wife (1 Cor. 11:2-16). Yet the head of the man is not another man, but Christ alone (1 Cor. 11:3), and this concept destroys the idea of political power of a man, other than Christ, over other men. When men have political power over other men, they are 'sons of God' in this unauthorised and improper sense, e.g. Gen. 6:1-4. They are also improper in that they took multiple women, i.e. polygyny. These polygynous kings filled the world with violence and tyranny and war. The image of God in man 'male and female' is the antidote and alternative to this violent and repressive social and political structure.

The point of the image of God is that the one bearing the image of God has the status as a son of God, and is therefore a 'brother' or an equal, with every other son of God. For this reason, the Torah forbade Israel's kings to be a son of God in a sense higher than his brothers, i.e. other men, who were also sons of God, Deut. 17:14-20. The submission of each man to God and to God's law, makes each man a brother, to each other man, and therefore has a duty not to commit adultery with his wife (Ex. 20:14), and not to covet his wife (Ex. 20:17), and not to kill him and take his wife (Gen. 12:10-20:1-13; 26:6-11), and not to take more than one wife (Lev. 18:18 -- the phrase 'a woman to her sister' means like things in a chain or set, and does not refer to biological human sisters), and not to divorce his wife (Deut. 22:19,29) and marry another (Luke 16:18).

The status of a man bearing the image of God is that he has a royal status that must be respected by God's other sons. Thus, to murder a man is to make war upon God, and to draw God's judgement. Cain murdered his brother, who was in the image of God, and yet Cain himself was in the image of God, and so God put his mark on Cain that Cain would not be killed, Gen. 4:1-16. The image of God is therefore both motive for the death penalty, but also the reason that it is not to be carried out. Cain's action was the first murder, but Cain's action was to be repeated by others who rose in social and political ascendancy to become the 'father' of many, and apparently created a dynasty, and a polygynous kingdom under Lamech. Lamech then murders a 'young' (weak, low status?) man for some slight, and correctly claims the legal precedent that murderers are not to be avenged, since they too are in the image of God, Gen. 4:17-24. The social and political development then went down-hill as the monogamous social structure broke down and the 'mighty men' arose on the land, and became 'sons of God' ruling over other men, and filling the land with violence and shedding human blood, because of their tyranny and domination and wars (Gen. 6:1-13).

Getting back to the animals that man was to rule over, in having the image of God and being made in the image of God. The man was an animal, but he was to be different from the animals, ruling the animals, by being 'male and female' (i.e. monogamous) and bearing the image of God as individual men, each with his one woman. Man is to rule the animals, or he would become or revert to his merely animalistic status. The story of Genesis 3-6 is man's fall from being truly in the image of God to being animalistic. The animal that was the snake, appears to be external to the man, and tempts the woman and deceives her and her husband. Yet, on closer analysis, the snake is man and it is in man. The arch-predator of man, the snake, the man realises is not merely a physical and animal predator, but is other men, and is inside man: it is inside himself. Man is his own worst enemy. The snake re-appears as the crouching beast of sin awaiting to pounce on Cain in Gen. 4:7. This beast is the thing that Cain does have the power to master, but like Adam, he fails, and is mastered by the animal. Cain becomes the animal, and kills his brother. Cain becomes the snake, or he is mastered by the snake. This snake-animal tendency then re-appears in Lamech and then the Mighty Men, as polygynous kings. Men become predator and prey of each other. In this context, the flood is sent upon the beasts -- and the men who were beasts. Noah, the monogynous one, and his three monogynous sons, and the monogymous animals, 'male and female' and each 'male with his mate' are saved from the flood.

The judgement of the flood, and the covenant of Noah, addresses the 'animals,' that is the men who had been mastered by the animals and who had become beasts. Accordingly, the covenant of Noah was made with the beasts, Gen. 9:9-17. This is the context for the undertaking and warning of the Second Flood:
4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. 5 And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.

6 “Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed,
for God made man in his own image.

The beasts were to be held accountable for shedding human blood. Yet, not with water, but by man. The second flood would be a flood of men of war, Dan. 9:26-27, which would come upon the men who had become beasts and who had shed the blood of man. As the first judgement was a mass judgement, so the second judgement would be a mass judgement. This is not mandating the death penalty for murder that was already precluded by God in response to Cain's murder of Abel. The Second Flood was to fulfil the last days judgement upon Israel, as outlined in the Song of Moses: God would send a flood of fire, disasters, plagues and beasts upon Israel. God would build up the sin of Israel in a vault, and then, when the vault was full, it would then be poured out in judgement, as a flood of men of war, the sword of YHWH, to avenge the blood of his servants shed on the land (Deut. 32). The foolish builders who rejected the gospel would have their 'house' washed away by the flood (Mat. 7:24-27). The blood shed on the land would be repaid in a desolation of that 'house' upon those men as the 'brood of vipers' (Mat. 23:29-38).

In summary, the image of God is the status and the mandate granted to individual men, to rule with God, over the chaos and weeds of the world, with his one wife as his allay, ruling not only over the world and the animals outside, but also over the snakes inside him. Man is to rule and to do the work of God in creation and ordering by means of monogamy and having a social and political structure that is not based on dominating other men so as to kill them and take their wives. This status and mandate is a constraint, not only upon murder, but also against the death penalty, or death as a political tool.

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Re: Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #40

Post by onewithhim »

Checkpoint wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:20 am [Replying to onewithhim in post #37]
Not gods (plural) god (singular): scripture indicates YHWH was speaking to The Word, his first and foremost spirit creation; later known as the human Jesus Christ.
Maybe, maybe not; can anyone be really sure about who He meant, and/or what is conveyed by "Let us/Us make man"..."in Our/our image".

I for sure am not, and do not expect to be in this life.

As for "the Word/Logos, this is another paradox to me.

I do not accept the usual explanation.

I also do not accept yours, "The Word, his first and foremost spirit creation; later known as the human Jesus Christ."

What I understand is that "the Logos became/was made flesh, and dwelt among us" as Jesus Christ, the Father's only-begotten son, whom He called "My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased", and commanded us to "Listen to him".

Yes, he is thus foremost or pre-eminent; but no, not as "first and foremost spiritual creation", like an angel.

I simply prefer what Matthew and Luke tell us of his virgin conception by the Spirit.

Guess I just though this may interest you as an aside, not intended to engender debate.

I really prefer to leave it at that!

I trust life is treating you well these days, onewithhim.
OK, we'll let it go. I think I understand that you don't believe that Jesus had a life before his conception into this world. OK.

Yes, Checkpoint, life is treating me quite well these days. I hope the same for you.

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