Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

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Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

This thread covers an interesting and important subject for us to discuss and debate.

This first post is brief, and asks these questions:

1). What is this Genesis 1:27 scripture telling us, as you understand it, about God, and about mankind?
So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
2a). Does the Bible give any direct or specific answers to question 1, in this verse, or anywhere else?

2b). If you conclude it does, where are the verses and what do they specify?

If you conclude it does not, why doesn't it do so?


3). The previous verse puts our subject in a different way.
26 Then God said, “Let Us/us make man in Our/our image, after our/Our likeness, to rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it.”
3a). Why is the difference there; plural in this verse, 26, and singular in verse 27?

3b). Who is "our/Our" and "Us/us" referring to? God as a Trinity, the angels, or?

3c). Do Christianity and Judaism give different answers to question 3b?
If so, what, and why?

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Re: Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #11

Post by myth-one.com »

Miles wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:44 pm I am curious as to what particular scripture points to the "Us" and "Our" in Genesis 1:26 as referencing The Word (Jesus Christ). Chapter and verse will do.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

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Re: Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #12

Post by historia »

Miles wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:34 pm
My guess is that the writer of 27 never heard of verse 26. After all its format is quite different---a heavily indented block rather than the border-to-border format like the rest of the chapter in many Bibles.
The difference between the plural usage in v. 26 and the singular usage in v. 27 certainly raises the possibility that there are two different layers to the story.

However, I've not seen scholars suggest, as you have here, that that the author of v. 27 is different from that of the rest of the story. If anything, the hypothesis usually runs the other way around: i.e., v. 26 may contain the vestige of any earlier form of the story.

The fact that v. 27 is poetic (hence the formatting in modern bibles) doesn't, in itself, mean it was composed by a different author, and v. 27's use of the singular is more in keeping with the rest of the story.
Miles wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:01 pm
And if the writers are wrong about the strength god endowed humans with couldn't they be equally wrong about god making them in his own image here?
Lots of things are possible.
Miles wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:01 pm
historia wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:34 pm
Jews today interpret this as a reference to angels (which, ontologically, are not that different from gods)
If they're ontologically no different than gods, just how do they differ?
Generally speaking, the gods were thought of as independent agents. By contrast, in late-Jewish and Christian thought, angels are considered to be servants and messengers of God.
Miles wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:01 pm
And speaking of gods, why would god, thee omnipotent being, need assistance from the other gods to create humans?
It's unlikely the original author thought of Elohim (= God) as omnipotent. Nevertheless, in the final form of the story, God alone creates mankind.
Miles wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:01 pm
AND, just who are these other gods anyway? Got any idea?
The original author probably had the Canaanite pantheon in mind.
Miles wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:01 pm
historia wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:34 pm
Christians have long seen the Trinity in this plural usage.
But such usage only indicates one god, does it not? The god of Abraham, which is made up of three "persons".
That's correct. The Christian interpretation of the story doesn't entail other gods.
Miles wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:01 pm
With more than 45,000 denominations globally, it says that choosing a denomination is pretty much a crap-shoot. And because so many denominations claim to be the only way to salvation it would appear to be critical crap-shoot
This is an old atheist trope that really should be retired. The term "denomination" as used by the article you cited (or rather the source the article itself cites for this number) does not mean what your argument here assumes it means. Moreover, most Protestant denominations don't consider their organization to be the "only way to salvation."

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Re: Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #13

Post by Miles »

historia wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:16 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:34 pm
My guess is that the writer of 27 never heard of verse 26. After all its format is quite different---a heavily indented block rather than the border-to-border format like the rest of the chapter in many Bibles.
The difference between the plural usage in v. 26 and the singular usage in v. 27 certainly raises the possibility that there are two different layers to the story.

However, I've not seen scholars suggest, as you have here, that that the author of v. 27 is different from that of the rest of the story. If anything, the hypothesis usually runs the other way around: i.e., v. 26 may contain the vestige of any earlier form of the story.

The fact that v. 27 is poetic (hence the formatting in modern bibles) doesn't, in itself, mean it was composed by a different author, and v. 27's use of the singular is more in keeping with the rest of the story.
Sorry, but I fail to see the poetry, as evidently do other modern bibles, such as the 2020 American Standard Bible.

Genesis 1:26-29
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that [a]moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food:

Miles wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:01 pm
historia wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:34 pm
Jews today interpret this as a reference to angels (which, ontologically, are not that different from gods)
If they're ontologically no different than gods, just how do they differ?
Generally speaking, the gods were thought of as independent agents. By contrast, in late-Jewish and Christian thought, angels are considered to be servants and messengers of God.
So these other divine beings, not being independent agents, are what, demigods, angels, and demons?

Miles wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:01 pm And speaking of gods, why would god, thee omnipotent being, need assistance from the other gods to create humans?
It's unlikely the original author thought of Elohim (= God) as omnipotent. Nevertheless, in the final form of the story, God alone creates mankind.
So what does one do with:


Genesis 1:26
And God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness; . . . .


"Pick and choose" to ignore it?
Miles wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:01 pm
With more than 45,000 denominations globally, it says that choosing a denomination is pretty much a crap-shoot. And because so many denominations claim to be the only way to salvation it would appear to be critical crap-shoot
This is an old atheist trope that really should be retired.
Thing is, the source here isn't atheistic but Christian centered. The Center for the Study of Global Christianity, the linked source, is "an academic research center that monitors worldwide demographic trends in Christianity that serve churches, mission agencies, NGOs, and others."
The term "denomination" as used by the article you cited (or rather the source the article itself cites for this number) does not mean what your argument here assumes it means. Moreover, most Protestant denominations don't consider their organization to be the "only way to salvation."
Which is why I said "many" and not "most." And how do you know that term "denomination" used by the article I cited does not mean what my argument here assumes it means? If there are two different definitions of "denomination" and you can show we are using two different definitions please do so.


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Re: Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #14

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to Miles in post #6]

Checkpoint wrote:
↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:52 pm

All I know is that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and is therefore the one to follow to reach the Father.
How is it you know this? Not just believe it, but have knowledge of it?
I just do.

I came to this belief several decades ago, and have not seen or experienced anything that even begins to change the stand I then took.

Rather, for me, it has been in the other direction.
God always has good advice for us, such as this, for example, from Proverbs 3:5-6:
And the following advice as well I imagine.

All good pieces of advice.
Something like that, yes.

Life is full of choices. Each one has good or bad consequences.

Good advice is there for the taking.

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Re: Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #15

Post by Miles »

Checkpoint wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:31 am [Replying to Miles in post #6]

Checkpoint wrote:
↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:52 pm

All I know is that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and is therefore the one to follow to reach the Father.
How is it you know this? Not just believe it, but have knowledge of it?
I just do.

I came to this belief several decades ago, and have not seen or experienced anything that even begins to change the stand I then took.
So it's a belief not knowledge. Okay, that's far more reasonable.

God always has good advice for us, such as this, for example, from Proverbs 3:5-6:
And the following advice as well I imagine.

All good pieces of advice.
Something like that, yes.
So in your heart of hearts you honestly think that:


Men who have sex with one another should be killed. Have you killed a homosexual? If not, why not?

You should never wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. Hmmm. Have you checked the manufacture's label in your clothes lately?

You are obligated to marry and have sex with your sister-in-law if your brother dies and they have no child? What if she's an insufferable skag? Really?


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Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #16

Post by Checkpoint »

Miles wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:25 pm
Checkpoint wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:31 am [Replying to Miles in post #6]

Checkpoint wrote:
↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:52 pm

All I know is that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and is therefore the one to follow to reach the Father.
How is it you know this? Not just believe it, but have knowledge of it?
I just do.

I came to this belief several decades ago, and have not seen or experienced anything that even begins to change the stand I then took.
So it's a belief not knowledge. Okay, that's far more reasonable.
O.K.

Yet, what Jesus said and did was not always "far more reasonable".

God always has good advice for us, such as this, for example, from Proverbs 3:5-6:
And the following advice as well I imagine.

All good pieces of advice.
Something like that, yes.
So in your heart of hearts you honestly think that:


Men who have sex with one another should be killed. Have you killed a homosexual? If not, why not?

You should never wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. Hmmm. Have you checked the manufacture's label in your clothes lately?
You are obligated to marry and have sex with your sister-in-law if your No.

brother dies and they have no child? What if she's an insufferable skag? Really?[/indent]
.
No, I do not think in those ways, and am not obligated to carry them out.

We live in a different time, with different principles, or similar ones practiced in a different way.

Jesus encapsulates such differences, which he soon paid for with his own life.

For example:

Matthew 5:
43 You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘Hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you".

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Re: Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #17

Post by PinSeeker »

historia wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:16 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:34 pm My guess is that the writer of 27 never heard of verse 26. After all its format is quite different---a heavily indented block rather than the border-to-border format like the rest of the chapter in many Bibles.
The difference between the plural usage in v. 26 and the singular usage in v. 27 certainly raises the possibility that there are two different layers to the story.
And/or that God is a plurality and a singularity at the same time.

historia wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:16 pm The fact that v. 27 is poetic (hence the formatting in modern bibles) doesn't, in itself, mean it was composed by a different author, and v. 27's use of the singular is more in keeping with the rest of the story.
I would disagree that v.27 is a different style/genre than v.26. But that's not a major point of contention, or anything like that.

historia wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:16 pm It's unlikely the original author thought of Elohim (= God) as omnipotent.
Moses knew very well Who God was/is. He talked to Him face to "face," you know. :) Nevertheless, in the final form of the story, God alone creates mankind.
historia wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:34 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:01 pm
historia wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:34 pm Christians have long seen the Trinity in this plural usage.
But such usage only indicates one god, does it not? The god of Abraham, which is made up of three "persons".
That's correct. The Christian interpretation of the story doesn't entail other gods.
Image


Grace and peace to all.
Last edited by PinSeeker on Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #18

Post by Miles »

Checkpoint wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:16 am
Miles wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:25 pm
Men who have sex with one another should be killed. Have you killed a homosexual? If not, why not?

You should never wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. Hmmm. Have you checked the manufacture's label in your clothes lately?

You are obligated to marry and have sex with your sister-in-law if your No.

brother dies and they have no child? What if she's an insufferable skag? Really?
.
No, I do not think in those ways, and am not obligated to carry them out.
So the legitimacy of what the Bible says all depends on how you think. Is that it?

We live in a different time, with different principles, or similar ones practiced in a different way.
So why would living in a different time, with different principles, or similar ones practiced in a different way release you from god's command?

I'm sure you realize that his commands whether they're characterized as a commandment, order, decree, or some other form are good for all eternity.


1 Peter 1:25
But the word of the Lord remains forever.” And this word is the good news that was preached to you.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,



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Re: Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #19

Post by myth-one.com »

Miles wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:22 pm
Checkpoint wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:16 am We live in a different time, with different principles, or similar ones practiced in a different way.
So why would living in a different time, with different principles, or similar ones practiced in a different way release you from god's command?
In reading the Bible from start to finish, one will notice a sharp contrast between the two testaments. The Old Testament is considerably more ruthless and bloody as compared with the New Testament. One explanation for this is the different requirements under which one could become an heir under the two testaments. Under the Old Testament one had to never sin. Therefore, any potential obstacle which might cause one to sin needed to be ruthlessly eliminated. Salvation was dependent upon one's works to fulfill the law.

By contrast, the New Testament theme is forgiveness and overcoming evil with good:

Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. (Romans 12:20-21)

So this reversal of philosophies may be due to the different requirements of the testaments.

After Jesus died for us, we fell under the grace of Jesus Christ for our salvation, not our works to fulfill the law. So sin does not control our salvation:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

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Re: Made In The Image And Likeness Of God

Post #20

Post by Miles »

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:10 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:22 pm
Checkpoint wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:16 am We live in a different time, with different principles, or similar ones practiced in a different way.
So why would living in a different time, with different principles, or similar ones practiced in a different way release you from god's command?
In reading the Bible from start to finish, one will notice a sharp contrast between the two testaments. The Old Testament is considerably more ruthless and bloody as compared with the New Testament. One explanation for this is the different requirements under which one could become an heir under the two testaments. Under the Old Testament one had to never sin. Therefore, any potential obstacle which might cause one to sin needed to be ruthlessly eliminated. Salvation was dependent upon one's works to fulfill the law.

By contrast, the New Testament theme is forgiveness and overcoming evil with good:

Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. (Romans 12:20-21)

So this reversal of philosophies may be due to the different requirements of the testaments.

After Jesus died for us, we fell under the grace of Jesus Christ for our salvation, not our works to fulfill the law. So sin does not control our salvation:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14)
Sorry, but this comes across as cherry picking at its worst......... But to each his own.




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