The Doctrine of Satan

[William]

William wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:08 pm

IF Jesus 'died that we may live" "For The Creator so loved the world...that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" THEN what does that actually mean, if all are eternal beings already?

Are you asking this rhetorically? Or is this really a question in your mind? It's a good question. Maybe you're asking it of myth-one so that he might re-think his position(s)?

It is a bit of both really.

It appears to me that the Bible is an outline of the story of human beings in relation to Satan.

It is not really so much a 'manual for life given to us from a God' so much as it is an "explanation of Satan and the effect that entity has in relation to other spirit beings"

Christians often invoke "The Devil" as a retort when it becomes obvious to them that those they are trying to convince that their particular religion is the one to follow, reject their cliam. Any opposition to their position, is regarded as "The Devil".

Indeed, it is apparent that without "The Devil" Christianity would cease to exist as a bunch of religions.

So never-to-mind the conflicting versions of The Creator they have imaged into the world...if we look at what they claim about Satan, are they united in those claims?

One thing I notice about the attributes of Satan is that he appears to be only slightly less powerful than the God of the bible...and for that, also appears to be working in a sort of congruent manner with the GotB. Certainly the GotB finds Satan extremely useful in relation to dealing with spirits incarcerated into human form.

So Satan is something of an accuser. He is also portrayed as someone who likes to seed doubt into the individual, and confusion as consequence.

The mythology as generally believed by Christians is that Satan wanted to "become like God" rather than just be a god.

Obviously he cannot make his fellow eternal beings follow along with his crazy notions as they are equal to him in every way. Satan has this weird image of The Creator which he wants to bring into the spirt realm...a being on a throne worshiped as The Creator of all that is.

However, according to Christian mythology, this being actually does sit on a throne being worshipped by spirit beings [Angels etc] which seems to contradict the prior story, which leads to confusion.

The main problem with the belief in the doctrine of Satan is that if Satan wanted to be above that image, simply replacing The Creator with himself on the throne, won't achieve that.

So now we are looking at spirit beings worshiping an image of The Creator on a throne and Satan wanting to be an actual representation of the image being worship. He wanted to fill that position with a real being [him] rather than the one conjured up by Angels [eternal spiritual entities]

"NO!" Shout the Christians! The Creator was already the real being on The Throne! Satan wanted that position!

But that contradicts the idea that Satan wanted to be in a position even better [higher] than simply being the one on The Throne.

According to the general mythology, some of the fellow Angels got on board with Satan's idea while others [the greater number of] rejected the idea.

Then there is some almost nonsensical claims that somehow the greater number of Angels overpowered Satan and his followers, and The Creator on the throne then created the physical universe as a sure way to imprison eternal beings away from them having any more disruptive influence in the none material universe of the Angels [Angelic Realm] and their Creator.

Satan - thus incarcerated - then found a way in which he could disrupt the Angelic Realm by creating human beings.

"NO" shout the Christians. The Creator created human beings!

"Okay" I reply, "If that is the case, why did The Creator place spiritual entities into the human domain [physical universe]?"

The general reply is that it was 'the other way around' The Creator placed human beings into the same Universe [!!] in which The Creator had created to imprison Satan and his followers in.

So then one is entitled [and wise] to ask "Why" The Creator did this.

The obvious answer reverts back to the idea that the Human Form - being part of the physical universe was designed to house Satan and his followers, which then implies that we human beings are Satan and his followers.

So then we enter the Garden of Eden Story...the whole bible is a story about Satan and his Followers.

Is there any reason why the above isn't true?

[William]

Christians Created The Image of Satan.

Satan's appearance is never described in the Bible, but, since the ninth century, he has often been shown in Christian art with horns, cloven hooves, unusually hairy legs, and a tail, often naked and holding a pitchfork. These are an amalgam of traits derived from various pagan deities, including Pan, Poseidon, and Bes. Satan appears frequently in Christian literature, most notably in Dante Alighieri's Inferno, variants of the Faust legend, John Milton's Paradise Lost and Paradise Regained, and the poems of William Blake. He continues to appear in film, television, and music.

Satan

From the OP;

Christians often invoke "The Devil" as a retort when it becomes obvious to them that those they are trying to convince that their particular religion is the one to follow, reject their cliam. Any opposition to their position, is regarded as "The Devil".

Indeed, it is apparent that without "The Devil" Christianity would cease to exist as a bunch of religions.

So never-to-mind the conflicting versions of The Creator they have imaged into the world...if we look at what they claim about Satan, are they united in those claims?

[William]

More evidence of Christian argument where Satan is brought in as a means of justifying their positions.

Posted in the thread "Is it Important to Have Knowledge of G&E?"
Post #51

Lucifer, (also known as the serpent, the devil, and Satan) is the current ruler over the earth:

And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)
Post #53

Notice that Jesus did not question the devil's authority to give him power over the earth. He knew that Satan did indeed have control over the earth and could give or share this power with whomever he pleased. Jesus' immediate response was:

Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Luke 4:8)

Post #55

This all occurred over a forty day period in which the devil tempted Jesus.

If the devil had no authority to give Jesus power over the world, it would not have been a temptation! [These users thanked the author myth-one.com for the post: 2timothy316]

As has been shown, not only are Christians responsible for circulating false images of The Creator of The Universe, but equally they are the cause for the worlds current images of Satan - another image Christianity invented and cursed the world with.

The interesting thing I find about the story of Jesus going into the desert alone immediately after being baptized, and then fasting for 40 days, only to experience this being called "Satan", is that there are no witnesses to this event. No one else was with Jesus.

Therefore;
{a} - Jesus would have had to have told his follows of the event.
{b} - The event didn't happen and was added as part of the process of Christianity inventing the Satan imagery.

It is yet another event which the biblical character "Jesus" claims to have happened, to which no one else was witness to.
Of course, this is part of the deal laid on the table. Things Jesus said happened to him which were not verified by any Human witness, have to be believed in - taken in faith as being actually true. [A whole other nest of eggs to be examined.]

Yet today we can easily enough explain that if Jesus did experience this supposed incident with Satan, then clearly it is significant of Jesus' own hidden desires coming through into his awareness, and he 'resists' the offers Satan makes to him because he does not want those things given to him by "The Evil Devil" but rather he wants those things given to him by "The Good God".

Nonetheless - he wants those things...

It may be a case of "Good Cop Bad Cop" where the cops get what they want by using deception... a psychological tactic often used by police for interrogation.

Together these entities collaborate in order to bind the minds of Human beings into focus upon a certain outcome, and no other possible outcome.

Win-win for the collaborators - and significantly we can observe our current [continuing] world situation as a battle between "light and dark" wherein both sides are going to win. Either that, or no one will.

The promise of Jesus returning is part of the game. If he never does, then this will not stop billions believing that 'he will eventually'.
Unless of course things get so bad that all prophesy regarding that event will be shown to have been fabricated from the go-get...

And if Jesus did actually return, then we have living evidence that he has returned. We still won't know by that, that he isn't playing a game which involves binding Humans into worshiping a false image of The Creator.
More to that point, since we know so much about what technology can achieve, if such an event were to take place in today's modern world circumstance, we would have to conclude that what we are witnessing is NOT necessarily some supernatural thing. Such an event can be explained naturally enough...

So - all that said another way -
{a} Jesus may be an invention of Satan's in order to have us worship a false image of The Creator.

Or - {b} Satan may be an invention of Jesus' in order to have us worship a false image of The Creator.

Either way, conclusion = "worship of false images" which appears to be the common denominator between those two extremes.

But then there is also that which branches off from that conclusion. If either {a} or {b} are correct then Satan is not as evil as we have been lead [by the images] to imagine and Jesus is not as good as we have been lead [ again, by the images] to imagine.

[William]

Keep The Evidence Coming.

(From the thread "Original Sin")

[William]

More Evidence.

From the thread; "Is annihilation false doctrine?"

[William]

Re: The Devil's Trick?

I have understood the message in the Bible is basically that people should be righteous and love others as themselves. If in the end God would say, “no, that was just joking, you would not need to be that”, I would still think it would be good to be righteous and love others. I don’t want to be righteous and love for to get some reward in the end, I want to do it because I think it is good.

As you've indicated above, If God didn't care much about righteousness and love, you would consider those things to be good anyway. Therefore, it logically follows that morality need not be grounded in God but in what you consider to be moral. Thanks for the clarification.

This is what I am also seeing.

The OPQ asks a question about the possibility that Jesus and Lucifer are the same character. The question is logical enough to be asking - in relation to Christian-based imagery.

The imagery has been purposed-designed to give examples of contradictory expression from both characters , re each other.

So IF the answer to the OPQ is "Yes" THEN, the imagery given is cancelled out through the form of the one person acting both parts. The actor [by the actions] neutralizes both extremes, as the are represented in the Christian Imagery.

As such, the action [of acting] cannot be judged under the premise that one can only judge 'good' from 'evil', because both those extremes are neutralized with the "Yes" answer to the OPQ.

To answer "No" to the OPQ, is to continue believing in the world through the filters of G&E, which - as you pointed out - is really nothing more or less than how the individual operating through that filter, choses to categorize actions there on in.

[This is also why it is important that Christians believe in Satan - for without that imagery, Christianity would Peter out - just as quietly as it Petered in. ]

Viewing the physical world only through the G&E Filter, allows one to be untruthful while also still thinking one is being truthful. Social structures have been set up to support groups in maintaining this state.

The evidence that G&E actually exist[ed] as things in this universe, prior to Human beings coming along and seeing it that way, doesn't appear to exist itself.

So to argue why it does exist through Human actions by invoking the belief in Angels and Demons as pre-existing Humans, and the represented leadership of both parties of said Spirits within the imagery of Jesus and Satan, becomes an 'attempt' by Humans to give substance to the belief in G&E as being necessary.

It is more a case of Humans projecting what they see as their G&E onto types of scapegoats [unseen Ghosts] and within the extremes the imagery conjures, is where so many Humans float around at the mercy of the 'gods' these Ghosts have become.

"God" - on the other hand, is ONE.

Yes, the universe does have its extremes. Dark/Light Calm/Storm et al. But its "grey area" is vast and quiet colorful, even with that fact that the Human Eye engages with only a small sector of the frequencies that actually exist.

Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife

[William]

During the time of the apostles, God restrained this foretold apostasy whilst the Christian scriptures were penned, but after their death, the restraint was lifted, and the devil did to Christianity exactly what he had done to Judaism.

More evidence of the necessity of Satan for so many Christians.

In this case, the convenient 'explanation' for why Protestant Christians continue to worship [for that is what it is] the bible which was penned by the very establishment which they call 'of the devil'.

Without such 'reasoning', such would not be able to claim that the bible is 'The Word of God' and thus have their particular interpretation of it sound at least as 'authoritative' as any other Christian denominations interpretation claims...all of course, claiming the are the denomination which God knows are the ones everyone should be listening to re "salvation".

Maybe if they learn to observe their own kind as they observe others, they may discover the devil in those details too.

[Jemima]

During the time of the apostles, God restrained this foretold apostasy whilst the Christian scriptures were penned, but after their death, the restraint was lifted, and the devil did to Christianity exactly what he had done to Judaism.

More evidence of the necessity of Satan for so many Christians.

What evidence would you accept?
Did you know that if the devil did not exist, you and I would not be having this conversation right now?

In this case, the convenient 'explanation' for why Protestant Christians continue to worship [for that is what it is] the bible which was penned by the very establishment which they call 'of the devil'.

Do you really think that God gives a toss about what we call ourselves? There is no such thing as a "denomination" to him.....all he sees are true Christians and the false ones.

A textbook is not worshipped.....It is the author, not the words in his instruction manual, who is worshipped. Is that clear enough?

The Bible is a book of Biblical history and instructions for daily life.....since we wish to follow that instruction, that is our choice....you may choose not to.
Your choice has nothing to do with me, just as my choice has nothing to do with you.
God has nothing to prove to anyone...what made you think he does?
Jesus never chased after anyone...he presented his message on a "take it or leave it" basis.....so take it or leave it.....that's it.
For those who believe in God no proof is necessary....for those who don't believe, no proof is possible. Its a wasted argument IMO.

Without such 'reasoning', such would not be able to claim that the bible is 'The Word of God' and thus have their particular interpretation of it sound at least as 'authoritative' as any other Christian denominations interpretation claims...all of course, claiming the are the denomination which God knows are the ones everyone should be listening to re "salvation".

Since Jesus taught that there are only two roads from which to choose our destination, you can make your choice, and I will make mine.
There are only "wheat and weeds"...."sheep and goats"....its a good thing that Jesus knows which is which. Two choices....that's it.
Isn't freedom of choice a wonderful thing?

Maybe if they learn to observe their own kind as they observe others, they may discover the devil in those details too.

We are actually advised to observe ourselves and make adjustments if we see a problem....so if everyone took the focus off what others ought to be doing and more on what they themselves are doing to prove their Christianity, we might just be able to discern who is wheat and who is weeds. Last time I looked it wasn't about what label you were wearing. (Acts 10:34-35)

[William]

[Replying to Jemima in post #117]

Did you know that if the devil did not exist, you and I would not be having this conversation right now?

Having conversations about things which don't/or are unknown to exist, is ordinary enough. Nothing special therein. This in itself is not evidence that what is been discussed, therefore must actually exist.

This particular thread is for pointing out the numerous occasions where Christians invoke "The Devil" as a means of justifying their beliefs and/or judging others.

You are welcome to debate if you think that is not the case...but clearly from what you say, without this imaginary entity, your beliefs would have no meaning as they rely on the existence of Satan being true, which is no different from any other Christian denominations belief, or how they attempt to discredit any position contrary to their own by claiming those who hold such position are 'of the devil'.

Do you really think that God gives a toss about what we call ourselves? There is no such thing as a "denomination" to him.....all he sees are true Christians and the false ones.

According to you, but you are not God. What you are doing here with this argument is projecting your beliefs onto an image you call 'God' and then speaking on behalf of this image.
Furthermore, you are using the informal fallacy of appeal to purity.

Example;

Person A: "No Christian isn't a [name of ones denomination]."
Person B: "But my uncle Angus is a Christian, and he isn't a [whichever denomination is named]."
Person A: "But no true Christian isn't a [name of ones denomination]."

Some Christians even argue that this fallacy doesn't apply to Christianity, and their reasoning can be traced right back to their belief in Satan being real. Everyone else can be deceived by Satan except those who agree with and support ones own particular denomination.

Schism is the result.

Maybe if they learn to observe their own kind as they observe others, they may discover the devil in those details too.

We are actually advised to observe ourselves and make adjustments if we see a problem....so if everyone took the focus off what others ought to be doing and more on what they themselves are doing to prove their Christianity, we might just be able to discern who is wheat and who is weeds. Last time I looked it wasn't about what label you were wearing.

Of course it is about what label is being worn. How else is one to discern 'who are the wheat and who are the weeds'?

Why else would one congregate at a specific denomination, or point fingers of judgment at other denominations which are not of ones own?

How else is one to distinguish one imagined entity from another?

[Jemima]

[Replying to William in post #118]

This particular thread is for pointing out the numerous occasions where Christians invoke "The Devil" as a means of justifying their beliefs and/or judging others.

Since the Bible is my sole source of reference and it speaks of the existence of this entity, I will assume that he is real because the Bible’s entire narrative is about him and the effect of his rebellion on us here on this earth.
The world makes no sense to me without the scriptures explaining why we are in this mess. God dealing with the cause of all our problems is undeniably appealing....so can you tell me why unbelievers hang around religious forums in order to bring us down to their level? What does it matter to you that I believe in the Bible as if you believe in something science can prove? Have you yourselves swallowed the kool-ade made in a lab?
I guess we will all know soon enough eh?

The devil is the reason for Jesus Christ....the Jewish nation....the level of evil demonstrated in the world, where we see only the tip of a very big iceberg. But one thing that the Bible promises is that God will lift the lid and expose the whole mess. Then I understand, that there will be no unbelievers....but too late for the majority who have had ample opportunity to see what the story is and make their inquiries. The spiritually minded turn to God....the unbelievers turn to man, who has no solutions to the problems that he has been led to create.

I like to have some hope in my life....a hope that men of science can never give me.

[William]

[Replying to Jemima in post #119]

This particular thread is for pointing out the numerous occasions where Christians invoke "The Devil" as a means of justifying their beliefs and/or judging others.

Since the Bible is my sole source of reference and it speaks of the existence of this entity, I will assume that he is real because the Bible’s entire narrative is about him and the effect of his rebellion on us here on this earth.

Indeed, as the thread topic is exactly about the Bible’s entire narrative being about Satan and the effect of his rebellion on us here on this earth, many Christians do not seem to want to acknowledge that as being the case.

The world makes no sense to me without the scriptures explaining why we are in this mess. God dealing with the cause of all our problems is undeniably appealing....

Of course.

I myself see no particular 'mess' - just a process which is incomplete. This means that I am not attracted to images of entities which promise the world... eventually. I see it as a form of Romanizing - with a slash of Greek but ultimately the "Disney Version" - where the Entity is presented as a King in Human form, similar in looks to Santa on a throne...



It appeals to personality types such as how you say you are.

So can you tell me why unbelievers hang around religious forums in order to bring us down to their level?

No. I haven't observed such behavior hereabouts. Looking down one's nose and thinking one sees others beneath one, isn't what the thread topic is about...is it?

What does it matter to you that I believe in the Bible as if you believe in something science can prove? Have you yourselves swallowed the kool-ade made in a lab?

Around here... Ad homen is never a wise debating device and all it will get you is a warning from the mods... newbies get a light warning for their first offence.

I guess we will all know soon enough eh?

"Eh" what?

The devil is the reason for Jesus Christ....the Jewish nation....

Have you tried telling them that? Perhaps Jesus Christ isn't aware that he exists because of Satan...perhaps the Jewish nation isn't aware of that either...

The level of evil demonstrated in the world, where we see only the tip of a very big iceberg.

Come now - when one focuses intently upon one facet of the whole picture, one is easily lead by the emotions such behavior induces. There is a fantastic amount of non-devilly things happening in this world right now. Maybe try to balance your intake with fair amounts of all things rather than gross amounts of one thing.

But one thing that the Bible promises is that God will lift the lid and expose the whole mess.

Does it look kinda like this in your minds-eye?



If so, you are not seeing the world as it truly is but only as you think it truly is.

Then I understand, that there will be no unbelievers....

Because we will look up from the mess and see a giant being looking down into our bowl?

but too late for the majority who have had ample opportunity to see what the story is and make their inquiries.

"Hi - my name is blahblah and I am here to tell you the goods news so that you may make inquires of me and I shall inform you of even more good news that you may know the mess we are all in will be shown to us by Jehovah for what we really are...not 'us' - but 'them'...disgusting filth"

The spiritually minded turn to God....the unbelievers turn to man, who has no solutions to the problems that he has been led to create.

Problems have solutions. By the sound of your reasoning here, can I assume that you would refuse virus jabs?

I like to have some hope in my life....a hope that men of science can never give me.

I don't know whether Jehovah will leave Humans to sort it out themselves or send Jesus to sort it out for us. I get the impression He is undecided as He is in a better position to see the whole picture than any personality claiming to be His witness.

Either way, I am okay with it.