The Doctrine of Satan

[William]

William wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:08 pm

IF Jesus 'died that we may live" "For The Creator so loved the world...that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" THEN what does that actually mean, if all are eternal beings already?

Are you asking this rhetorically? Or is this really a question in your mind? It's a good question. Maybe you're asking it of myth-one so that he might re-think his position(s)?

It is a bit of both really.

It appears to me that the Bible is an outline of the story of human beings in relation to Satan.

It is not really so much a 'manual for life given to us from a God' so much as it is an "explanation of Satan and the effect that entity has in relation to other spirit beings"

Christians often invoke "The Devil" as a retort when it becomes obvious to them that those they are trying to convince that their particular religion is the one to follow, reject their cliam. Any opposition to their position, is regarded as "The Devil".

Indeed, it is apparent that without "The Devil" Christianity would cease to exist as a bunch of religions.

So never-to-mind the conflicting versions of The Creator they have imaged into the world...if we look at what they claim about Satan, are they united in those claims?

One thing I notice about the attributes of Satan is that he appears to be only slightly less powerful than the God of the bible...and for that, also appears to be working in a sort of congruent manner with the GotB. Certainly the GotB finds Satan extremely useful in relation to dealing with spirits incarcerated into human form.

So Satan is something of an accuser. He is also portrayed as someone who likes to seed doubt into the individual, and confusion as consequence.

The mythology as generally believed by Christians is that Satan wanted to "become like God" rather than just be a god.

Obviously he cannot make his fellow eternal beings follow along with his crazy notions as they are equal to him in every way. Satan has this weird image of The Creator which he wants to bring into the spirt realm...a being on a throne worshiped as The Creator of all that is.

However, according to Christian mythology, this being actually does sit on a throne being worshipped by spirit beings [Angels etc] which seems to contradict the prior story, which leads to confusion.

The main problem with the belief in the doctrine of Satan is that if Satan wanted to be above that image, simply replacing The Creator with himself on the throne, won't achieve that.

So now we are looking at spirit beings worshiping an image of The Creator on a throne and Satan wanting to be an actual representation of the image being worship. He wanted to fill that position with a real being [him] rather than the one conjured up by Angels [eternal spiritual entities]

"NO!" Shout the Christians! The Creator was already the real being on The Throne! Satan wanted that position!

But that contradicts the idea that Satan wanted to be in a position even better [higher] than simply being the one on The Throne.

According to the general mythology, some of the fellow Angels got on board with Satan's idea while others [the greater number of] rejected the idea.

Then there is some almost nonsensical claims that somehow the greater number of Angels overpowered Satan and his followers, and The Creator on the throne then created the physical universe as a sure way to imprison eternal beings away from them having any more disruptive influence in the none material universe of the Angels [Angelic Realm] and their Creator.

Satan - thus incarcerated - then found a way in which he could disrupt the Angelic Realm by creating human beings.

"NO" shout the Christians. The Creator created human beings!

"Okay" I reply, "If that is the case, why did The Creator place spiritual entities into the human domain [physical universe]?"

The general reply is that it was 'the other way around' The Creator placed human beings into the same Universe [!!] in which The Creator had created to imprison Satan and his followers in.

So then one is entitled [and wise] to ask "Why" The Creator did this.

The obvious answer reverts back to the idea that the Human Form - being part of the physical universe was designed to house Satan and his followers, which then implies that we human beings are Satan and his followers.

So then we enter the Garden of Eden Story...the whole bible is a story about Satan and his Followers.

Is there any reason why the above isn't true?

[JehovahsWitness]

The Creator is ALL. Not a unique personality separate from all other unique personalities, as you interpret.

Yes well like me you have just shared your opinion. Is that not so?

Even so, our opinions differ enough that we do not agree. ...

I can happily live with that. I have not been put on this earth to agree with everyone.







J W

[William]

The Creator is ALL. Not a unique personality separate from all other unique personalities, as you interpret.

Yes well like me you have just shared your opinion. Is that not so?

Even so, our opinions differ enough that we do not agree. ...

I can happily live with that. I have not been put on this earth to agree with everyone.

Good on you Christian for acknowledging that my own argument is at least as equally valid as your own.
It is a refreshing change from the usual Christian response and attitude that they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Bless You.

[JehovahsWitness]

...our opinions differ enough that we do not agree. ...

I can happily live with that.

Good on you Christian for acknowledging that my own argument is at least as equally valid as your own.

Thank you. It is my opinion that your opinion is not only utter nonsense but is poisonous and spiritualy harmful. My opinion is that my opinion reflects bible truths and yours does not. In short my opinion is that all opinions are not equal and that some opinions reflect those of Satan the Devil who has "blinded the minds of the unbelievers " (2 Cor 4:4) and some do not.

Of course I can happily accept that {quote} our opinions differ enough that we do not agree. It is my opinion that light and darkness can never "agree ".

May Jehovah the Only true God, my God, bless you and all you hold dear,


JW

[William]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #104]


This is a debate sub-forum where one can present their argument against another's argument in a manner that does not resort to personal attack, but rather, in a manner which presents sensible critique of the actual arguments put forth. There are other sub- forums available to give personal opinion, in the General Discussion Forum.


From this Thread's Opening Post.
Christians often invoke "The Devil" as a retort when it becomes obvious to them that those they are trying to convince that their particular religion is the one to follow, reject their cliam. Any opposition to their position, is regarded as "The Devil".

Indeed, it is apparent that without "The Devil" Christianity would cease to exist as a bunch of religions.

Evidence of this has occurred with the following example - which can only be categorised as "and expression of phycological projection];

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #104]

It is my opinion that your opinion is not only utter nonsense but is poisonous and spiritualy harmful. My opinion is that my opinion reflects bible truths and yours does not. In short my opinion is that all opinions are not equal and that some opinions reflect those of Satan the Devil who has "blinded the minds of the unbelievers " (2 Cor 4:4) and some do not.

After explaining and backing that up with a bible quote, the connection is then made between my argument and "the works of the devil", with the following;

Of course I can happily accept that {quote} our opinions differ enough that we do not agree. It is my opinion that light and darkness can never "agree ".

Clearly I am counted as being 'the darkness' to my accusers "light" [if you are looking for Satan - you can find him/her as whomever is your accuser, according to biblical script found elsewhere.

The meaning of "Satan"
[from the link;

Satan - also known as the Devil, and sometimes also called Lucifer in Christianity, is a non-physical entity in the Abrahamic religions that seduces humans into sin or falsehood. In Judaism Satan is seen as an agent subservient to God or typically regarded as a metaphor for the yetzer hara, or "evil inclination". In Christianity and Islam, he is usually seen as either a fallen angel or a jinn, who used to possess great piety and beauty, but rebelled against God, who nevertheless allows him temporary power over the fallen world and a host of demons.

Followed by an almost comical phrase to denote goodwill. A mask of 'goodness' after delivering judgement against a fellow.

May Jehovah the Only true God, my God, bless you and all you hold dear,

As if.

As far as I am concerned, The Creator has my Back, [thus I am blessed even without my accuser's finishing his/her 'opinion' off with 'love and light' [poor me in the darkness] thus the incantation serves to that purpose already well and truly achieved.

I am grateful for every piece of evidence which supports the notions laid out in the Opening Post.

Such as;

So Satan is something of an accuser. He is also portrayed as someone who likes to seed doubt into the individual, and confusion as consequence.

Which clearly my accuser here is also involved with...trying to 'bring me into the light' since apparently he/she sees my position is in darkness, and my interpretation of biblical script is 'poison'.

But in reality I am simply 'saying how it is written' and have no stake in this conflict. I see no good or evil in the God of the Bible incanting curses upon human beings. That is because I no longer live in the fantasy world of "The Knowledge of Good and Evil" and thus I Am freed up to make better observations about my situation - general and specific

So - my accuser [whomever might attempt that] will always fail to seed self-doubt and subsequent confusion into the reality of who I Am. I am that which walks in the vast area of the colors and greys of the overlap between the extremes of pure darkness and pure light.

I am "He Who Walks and Talks With The Creator". The Creator tells me I Am not being accused by The Creator. I agree with The Creator.

[otseng]

It is my opinion that your opinion is not only utter nonsense but is poisonous and spiritualy harmful.

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[JehovahsWitness]

Thank you. It is my opinion that your opinion is not only utter nonsense but is poisonous and spiritualy harmful. My opinion is that my opinion reflects bible truths and yours does not. In short my opinion is that all opinions are not equal and that some opinions reflect those of Satan the Devil who has "blinded the minds of the unbelievers " (2 Cor 4:4) and some do not.

Of course I can happily accept that {quote} our opinions differ enough that we do not agree. It is my opinion that light and darkness can never "agree ".

May Jehovah the Only true God, my God, bless you and all you hold dear,


JW

Blessings to you,

I am sorry if I have the impression my opinion was about you as a person, that was not my intention. Let me rephrase,:

It is my opinion that your conclusions are incorrect and my personal opinion that OUR opinions are diametrically opposed, and I have no problem with that. Notably because right and wrong can in my personal opinion never be harmonized nor should it be.

The Jehovah's Witness religion believed there is a scripture in the bible that, according to the official teachings of JWs , summarizes the religious view of many people, not the'people themselves (2 Cor 4;4). Each person can decided if the Jehovah's Witness view is right or wrong in this regard, but it is a VERIFIABLE FACT that that is part if their teaching.

We love people but that doesn't mean de love the wrong views people hold.



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[Tcg]

The Jehovah's Witness religion...

The Jehovah's Witnesses aren't a separate religion. They are a branch, and a rather recent one at that, of the Christian religion.


Tcg

[William]

[Replying to otseng in post #48]

I believe we don't need to elevate the Biblical writers to more than what they were. Clearly from reading the Bible, they were not perfect. Unless they went into some sort of trance while writing their works, they were still subject to their own weaknesses and limitations.

The purpose of the scriptures is not to idolize the authors. It's not even to idolize the Bible. It's to idolize the subject of the Bible - God. The scriptures are a testimony and witness to what God has done and what he's like.

Now, before anyone start accusing me of being a liberal or a heretic or a pagan, I believe in the full authority of the Bible.

Herein we can deduce that Christianity is a judgmental religion which requires the existence of an opposing force of evil in order to give the religion a look of being good.

In the above - the first paragraph concerns itself with the writer [otseng] explaining how the authors of the books of the Bible are 'only human' and quite rightly suggesting they were susceptible to their own particular beliefs, which draws away from the popular Christian argument regarding all scripture being "inspired" by The Creator - because - "Unless they went into some sort of trance while writing their works, they were still subject to their own weaknesses and limitations."

otseng then proceeds to claim that the point of the Bible is not to idolize the books it is made up of, or even the whole book, but rather to idolize the God who is " the subject of the Bible", but clearly that subject is far from being clearly defined and in harmony with superimposed ideas of good and evil - because clearly the God of the Bible is the source of both, yet Christians seem to have no problem Judging everything else as 'either/or' but have a hard time accepting the clear observation that the Biblical idea of The Creator does indeed have his dark side.

Overall point being, that the bible itself gives differing impressions as to the image of the God presented, and with that, Christians idolize an image presented, rather than anything which might actually portray The Creator without ambiguity.

The ambiguity in turn allows for Christians to worship a variety of images of a God, all which have to be false images, and so it becomes an act of worshiping false images.

And - not wanting to be labelled those 'filthy' terms Christianity has created to judge others with "liberal or a heretic or a pagan" [etc] otseng defends his position as "believing in the full authority of the Bible."

Essentially, whatever a Christian defines as 'truth' has its focus on 'whatever the Bible says' so in that, yes - the book itself is a central item of worship, whether admitted by Christians as being the case, or otherwise. They appear to largely be having a relationship with an inanimate object and inferring on that object some kind of magical authority as if it comes from The Creator when - in all honesty, the contents of the book come from a variety of authors who had varying and often competing beliefs about who exactly is The Creator and what exactly is The Creators nature.

The evidence of this being the case is in how Christians treat one another - and how much they argue over "correct interpretations" of the script - clearly indicative of service to something which is all about accusation and judge mentalism - those things usually associated with the role of Satan, which they also claim is an 'enemy' but one they conveniently use the same methods in order to place themselves at the head of humanities table.

That is why this thread subject exists...to point out how alike they are to the one that they claim they are against.

[William]

More evidence backing up the OP concept and subsequent ideas presented in this thread to date.

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #13]

Here's a partial outline of basic Christian/Jehovah's Witness theology:

... the world we live in is the best possible because a perfectly good God created it.

Do you really think you know enough about Jehovah's Witness theology to present it back to one of Jehovah's Witness without being corrected?

In the Bible the word “world” (Greek, koʹsmos) often designates unrighteous human society, which “is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19) - The Watchtower Novembre, 1st 1997 p.8

EPHESIANS 6:12 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

For our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world powers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SATAN , THE WORLD and ...THE ORIGINAL SIN

[William]