The Doctrine of Satan

[William]

William wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:08 pm

IF Jesus 'died that we may live" "For The Creator so loved the world...that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" THEN what does that actually mean, if all are eternal beings already?

Are you asking this rhetorically? Or is this really a question in your mind? It's a good question. Maybe you're asking it of myth-one so that he might re-think his position(s)?

It is a bit of both really.

It appears to me that the Bible is an outline of the story of human beings in relation to Satan.

It is not really so much a 'manual for life given to us from a God' so much as it is an "explanation of Satan and the effect that entity has in relation to other spirit beings"

Christians often invoke "The Devil" as a retort when it becomes obvious to them that those they are trying to convince that their particular religion is the one to follow, reject their cliam. Any opposition to their position, is regarded as "The Devil".

Indeed, it is apparent that without "The Devil" Christianity would cease to exist as a bunch of religions.

So never-to-mind the conflicting versions of The Creator they have imaged into the world...if we look at what they claim about Satan, are they united in those claims?

One thing I notice about the attributes of Satan is that he appears to be only slightly less powerful than the God of the bible...and for that, also appears to be working in a sort of congruent manner with the GotB. Certainly the GotB finds Satan extremely useful in relation to dealing with spirits incarcerated into human form.

So Satan is something of an accuser. He is also portrayed as someone who likes to seed doubt into the individual, and confusion as consequence.

The mythology as generally believed by Christians is that Satan wanted to "become like God" rather than just be a god.

Obviously he cannot make his fellow eternal beings follow along with his crazy notions as they are equal to him in every way. Satan has this weird image of The Creator which he wants to bring into the spirt realm...a being on a throne worshiped as The Creator of all that is.

However, according to Christian mythology, this being actually does sit on a throne being worshipped by spirit beings [Angels etc] which seems to contradict the prior story, which leads to confusion.

The main problem with the belief in the doctrine of Satan is that if Satan wanted to be above that image, simply replacing The Creator with himself on the throne, won't achieve that.

So now we are looking at spirit beings worshiping an image of The Creator on a throne and Satan wanting to be an actual representation of the image being worship. He wanted to fill that position with a real being [him] rather than the one conjured up by Angels [eternal spiritual entities]

"NO!" Shout the Christians! The Creator was already the real being on The Throne! Satan wanted that position!

But that contradicts the idea that Satan wanted to be in a position even better [higher] than simply being the one on The Throne.

According to the general mythology, some of the fellow Angels got on board with Satan's idea while others [the greater number of] rejected the idea.

Then there is some almost nonsensical claims that somehow the greater number of Angels overpowered Satan and his followers, and The Creator on the throne then created the physical universe as a sure way to imprison eternal beings away from them having any more disruptive influence in the none material universe of the Angels [Angelic Realm] and their Creator.

Satan - thus incarcerated - then found a way in which he could disrupt the Angelic Realm by creating human beings.

"NO" shout the Christians. The Creator created human beings!

"Okay" I reply, "If that is the case, why did The Creator place spiritual entities into the human domain [physical universe]?"

The general reply is that it was 'the other way around' The Creator placed human beings into the same Universe [!!] in which The Creator had created to imprison Satan and his followers in.

So then one is entitled [and wise] to ask "Why" The Creator did this.

The obvious answer reverts back to the idea that the Human Form - being part of the physical universe was designed to house Satan and his followers, which then implies that we human beings are Satan and his followers.

So then we enter the Garden of Eden Story...the whole bible is a story about Satan and his Followers.

Is there any reason why the above isn't true?

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #50]

Tammy - you will have to read the whole thread because much of what you argue has already been covered.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to William in post #52]

If those things have been covered, then that should have been the end of it. The 'script' does not state that the physical realm was created to incarcerate eternal beings. The 'script' DOES state that God created man. The 'script' refutes the things that you claimed. I feel no need to repeat it all since it is from just three posts back. So it is there if anyone wants/needs to see it.

Regardless, in answer to your question, there are indeed lots of reasons the OP cannot be true.

[myth-one.com]

Since there are natural and spiritual bodies, it would seem logical that spirits would occupy the spiritual bodies.

Yes. But this does not mean that Spirits do no occupy physical bodies. I pointed that our re Jesus, who also was Spirit within a physical body.

No, the Word was an immortal spiritual bodied being.

The Word was made flesh as the man Jesus Christ so that He could die:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us... (John 1:14)

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

If Jesus was a spirit as you claim, He could not taste death.

And if a spirit could taste death, then the Word could have tasted death for every man -- and Jesus would not have been necessary.

[William]

Since there are natural and spiritual bodies, it would seem logical that spirits would occupy the spiritual bodies.

Yes. But this does not mean that Spirits do no occupy physical bodies. I pointed that our re Jesus, who also was Spirit within a physical body.

No, the Word was an immortal spiritual bodied being.

Yes. So what? Spirits are not exclusively tied to any form, Physical or Spiritual. Forms are devices which allow for the function and experience said form is designed for.. like spacesuits are designed for astronauts to experience space. They are for particular reasons. A Spirit dons a form for particular purposes.

The Word was made flesh as the man Jesus Christ so that He could die:

Yes. Function of form. Form, serves purpose. It is device created by Spirit for Spirit.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us... (John 1:14)

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

If Jesus was a spirit as you claim, He could not taste death.

Not at all. One reason for wearing a physical form is so that Spirit can experience the dying of that form. That is one of the functions of physical human form.

And if a spirit could taste death, then the Word could have tasted death for every man -- and Jesus would not have been necessary.

?

[William]

[Replying to William in post #52]

Peace to you,

UBH

The 'script' does not state that the physical realm was created to incarcerate eternal beings.

I am positive that you realize that there are Christians who believe that Satan was cast down from heaven and is active in the affairs of Earth Tammy. If you would read the thread you will understand that I am going along with Myth-One who appears to believe that. I myself am open to other interpretations.

The 'script' DOES state that God created man.

If you read the thread you will see where I have agreed with this, but only in as far as "Man" means the human form in which the Spirit occupies and therefore animates...

I encourage you to read the thread because this will save me having to repeat my arguments when you make arguments for which I have made reply to in the thread already...

[myth-one.com]

I am positive that you realize that there are Christians who believe that Satan was cast down from heaven and is active in the affairs of Earth Tammy. If you would read the thread you will understand that I am going along with Myth-One who appears to believe that. I myself am open to other interpretations.

Satan was originally given authority over the earth.

So he must have been held in high esteem by God at some time.

He was cast back down to the earth following his defeat in the rebellion:

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:7-9)

So he was cast back where he belonged.

Is that clear now?

He certainly is not incarcerated in any human's form.

[William]

I am positive that you realize that there are Christians who believe that Satan was cast down from heaven and is active in the affairs of Earth Tammy. If you would read the thread you will understand that I am going along with Myth-One who appears to believe that. I myself am open to other interpretations.

Satan was originally given authority over the earth.

Are you reading this Tammy?

So he must have been held in high esteem by God at some time.

Well - some esteem no doubt. If - for example - Satan was given authority over the Galaxy, maybe your remark would have more substance.
Needless to say, Satan was given some kind of authority over the Earth. Can you explain exactly what authority that was. [I know you already said so in this thread - but I am asking in order that this might help bring Tammy up to speed on our conversation to date. To save her having to read the thread herself, you understand...]

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:7-9)

He was cast back down to the earth following his defeat in the rebellion:
So he was cast back where he belonged.

Is that clear now?

Yes - I understood that was what you wrote in the first place. Any Questions Tammy? Do you agree with Myth-One regarding this?

He certainly is not incarcerated in any human's form.

Yes - well 'certainty' aside, I think you did make mention of what form he did take on?

Something you said about the Serpent? Along the lines of "The Serpent lied" and "Satan was the Serpent? [I may have got that wrong Myth-One - so do correct me if I am mistaken.]

Otherwise, what form do you think Satan wears?

Also, what role does Satan now play in the scheme of things, hereabouts on Earth?

[tam]

Peace again,

The 'script' does not state that the physical realm was created to incarcerate eternal beings.

I am positive that you realize that there are Christians who believe that Satan was cast down from heaven and is active in the affairs of Earth Tammy.

These two statements (bolded) are not the same.

If you would read the thread you will understand that I am going along with Myth-One who appears to believe that. I myself am open to other interpretations.

If you can acknowledge that those two statements are not the same, then you might be able to understand why I am not going to jump into a conversation that isn't about the claims made in the OP. I went from what you said in your OP. Have you recanted your position in the OP?

The 'script' DOES state that God created man.

If you read the thread you will see where I have agreed with this, but only in as far as "Man" means the human form in which the Spirit occupies and therefore animates...

There is no 'in as far as', in the 'script'. That is something you (or others) have added.

I encourage you to read the thread because this will save me having to repeat my arguments when you make arguments for which I have made reply to in the thread already...

See above. You are under no obligation to respond to anything I wrote, of course, but I am not going to start responding to things that others said, that you may have changed, that aren't statements made in the OP, etc. I am not weeding through that mess.

I responded to the claims made in the OP.

[William]

Peace again,

UHB Again.

The 'script' does not state that the physical realm was created to incarcerate eternal beings.

I am positive that you realize that there are Christians who believe that Satan was cast down from heaven and is active in the affairs of Earth Tammy.

These two statements (bolded) are not the same.

Do you mean they are not the same thing? More to the point, can you explain why they are "not the same", rather than just make a statement of opinion?

The 'script' DOES state that God created man.

If you read the thread you will see where I have agreed with this, but only in as far as "Man" means the human form in which the Spirit occupies and therefore animates...

There is no 'in as far as', in the 'script'. That is something you (or others) have added.

So you claim. I have stated in the thread why I think it is indeed the case, going off of the script.
Like with your statement of opinion above, you do need to qualify your statements with argument in order for me to properly respond.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to William in post #60]

By this time you could have just responded to my original post(s) that addressed the OP. That you have not done this suggests to me that there may be a different reason you refuse to respond to those posts directly. I will leave my original post(s) on the previous page to stand as is.