The Doctrine of Satan

[William]

William wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:08 pm

IF Jesus 'died that we may live" "For The Creator so loved the world...that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" THEN what does that actually mean, if all are eternal beings already?

Are you asking this rhetorically? Or is this really a question in your mind? It's a good question. Maybe you're asking it of myth-one so that he might re-think his position(s)?

It is a bit of both really.

It appears to me that the Bible is an outline of the story of human beings in relation to Satan.

It is not really so much a 'manual for life given to us from a God' so much as it is an "explanation of Satan and the effect that entity has in relation to other spirit beings"

Christians often invoke "The Devil" as a retort when it becomes obvious to them that those they are trying to convince that their particular religion is the one to follow, reject their cliam. Any opposition to their position, is regarded as "The Devil".

Indeed, it is apparent that without "The Devil" Christianity would cease to exist as a bunch of religions.

So never-to-mind the conflicting versions of The Creator they have imaged into the world...if we look at what they claim about Satan, are they united in those claims?

One thing I notice about the attributes of Satan is that he appears to be only slightly less powerful than the God of the bible...and for that, also appears to be working in a sort of congruent manner with the GotB. Certainly the GotB finds Satan extremely useful in relation to dealing with spirits incarcerated into human form.

So Satan is something of an accuser. He is also portrayed as someone who likes to seed doubt into the individual, and confusion as consequence.

The mythology as generally believed by Christians is that Satan wanted to "become like God" rather than just be a god.

Obviously he cannot make his fellow eternal beings follow along with his crazy notions as they are equal to him in every way. Satan has this weird image of The Creator which he wants to bring into the spirt realm...a being on a throne worshiped as The Creator of all that is.

However, according to Christian mythology, this being actually does sit on a throne being worshipped by spirit beings [Angels etc] which seems to contradict the prior story, which leads to confusion.

The main problem with the belief in the doctrine of Satan is that if Satan wanted to be above that image, simply replacing The Creator with himself on the throne, won't achieve that.

So now we are looking at spirit beings worshiping an image of The Creator on a throne and Satan wanting to be an actual representation of the image being worship. He wanted to fill that position with a real being [him] rather than the one conjured up by Angels [eternal spiritual entities]

"NO!" Shout the Christians! The Creator was already the real being on The Throne! Satan wanted that position!

But that contradicts the idea that Satan wanted to be in a position even better [higher] than simply being the one on The Throne.

According to the general mythology, some of the fellow Angels got on board with Satan's idea while others [the greater number of] rejected the idea.

Then there is some almost nonsensical claims that somehow the greater number of Angels overpowered Satan and his followers, and The Creator on the throne then created the physical universe as a sure way to imprison eternal beings away from them having any more disruptive influence in the none material universe of the Angels [Angelic Realm] and their Creator.

Satan - thus incarcerated - then found a way in which he could disrupt the Angelic Realm by creating human beings.

"NO" shout the Christians. The Creator created human beings!

"Okay" I reply, "If that is the case, why did The Creator place spiritual entities into the human domain [physical universe]?"

The general reply is that it was 'the other way around' The Creator placed human beings into the same Universe [!!] in which The Creator had created to imprison Satan and his followers in.

So then one is entitled [and wise] to ask "Why" The Creator did this.

The obvious answer reverts back to the idea that the Human Form - being part of the physical universe was designed to house Satan and his followers, which then implies that we human beings are Satan and his followers.

So then we enter the Garden of Eden Story...the whole bible is a story about Satan and his Followers.

Is there any reason why the above isn't true?

[William]

...The idea/image of a God on a throne being worshiped...

Perhaps that is the reason why Bible forbids to make images of God.

Yes - Because The Creator cannot be seen as any "thing"...which then leads us to wonder why religions [Christianity too] have created images of The Creator. Obviously these must be false. Which then leads one to think that making Jesus The Creator is also making a false image of The Creator.

Then there are the biblical occasions where an entity claiming to be The Creator claimed that one could see him, but one would die doing so.
Plus there are biblical accounts of visitations of "The Lord" who humans witnessed seeing.

Then there is Jesus saying some folk would "see" The Creator.

[William]

Hence, I see Biblical contradictions as a red flag to tread very cautiously and not to believe everything you read in the Bible. . . . . . . . if anything all

I do not believe it's an either/or situation. It's not either everything in the Bible is factually correct or nothing is factually correct. Unfortunately though, many people hold to this position, including both Christians and non-Christians.

I think the first thing that has to be addressed is the doctrine of inerrancy. Don't want to hash it out all again, but it is discussed in Is it necessary for the Bible to be inerrant?. Bottom line, it's possible to believe the Bible is authoritative without the need to be an inerrantist.

Another issue is the Greek/western way of thinking. The western mind typically puts things in an either/or box. Something is either in box A or in box B. Things need to be logical. In the eastern mind, things can exist which seem contrary to each other. Things do not have to be logical.

An example of this is light. A western mindset would have more difficulty accepting light is both a wave and a particle. An eastern mindset would more easily accept it. Pioneers of quantum mechanics such as Heisenberg were influenced by eastern philosophy, even though he was a devout Christian:

Heisenberg admired Eastern philosophy and saw parallels between it and quantum mechanics, describing himself as in "complete agreement" with the book The Tao of Physics. Heisenberg even went as far to state that after conversations with Rabindranath Tagore about Indian philosophy "some of the ideas that seemed so crazy suddenly made much more sense."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_He ... _worldview

Another example is something I was discussing with someone I met at church. A western mindset would have more difficulty accepting it's possible for people in the church to accept different political, racial, ideological positions and still be one unified church body. In the eastern mindset, it would be easier to accept the fact that a Democrat and a Republican can sit in the same pew.

The above demonstrates how Christianity has attempted to separate "God" from "Satan" by making them two distinctly individual beings.
The old testament idea of The Creator has it that the entity is the deliverer of both good and evil. This does not sit well with the Western mindset, and thus an artificial schism was created in order to attempt to 'correct' things.

The subsequent result produced violence rather than peace, as the history of Christianity spreading into the world has shown.

[JehovahsWitness]

The above demonstrates how Christianity has attempted to separate "God" from "Satan" by making them two distinctly individual beings.

The old testament idea of The Creator has it that the entity is the deliverer of both good and evil.

Are you suggesting that the Hebrew bible presents both YHWH and Satan the Devil as the not two distinctly individuals but as a single individual?





JW

[nobspeople]

The above demonstrates how Christianity has attempted to separate "God" from "Satan" by making them two distinctly individual beings.

The old testament idea of The Creator has it that the entity is the deliverer of both good and evil.

Are you suggesting that the Hebrew bible presents both YHWH and Satan the Devil as the not two distinctly individuals but as a single individual?





JW

It stands to reason, if God was 'before all things' and 'created everything' (often times saying he created from 'nothingness') then Satan, the devil, whatever, is part of God, at the very least.
I makes no sense to think God, who is said to be perfect, can create humanity only to somehow let humanity sin and thus, 'create evil' as some claim.
So, evil had to exist even before Satan, if one believes in the 'fallen angel' concept of satan

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... -is-satan/
notes: " In the Hebrew Bible...YHWH is ultimately a god of justice. He is behind the good and the bad, behind the blessings and the curses. It is within this divine court of justice and retribution that Satan has his origins."
This would seem to indicate that the devil, if it exists, is nothing more than a scapegoat for a devious deity known as God

https://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/give- ... il-his-due
notes, in part: "Modern Judeo-Christian rhetoric and imagery purports that Satan is an evil opponent to all that is good and godly — a literal opponent of God. But that characterization doesn’t hold up under critical scrutiny of the Bible, says Henry Ansgar Kelly, UCLA distinguished research professor of English and one of the world’s leading experts on Satan."
and
“A frequent assumption about Satan is not only that he is as bad as can be, but also that he has always been considered this bad,” Kelly said. “I have been researching and writing about the devil for over 50 years now, and have been making many of the same points without really being able to get across my main point, that no matter when we have heard about Satan and his nature and history, and activities, most them are not to be found in the Bible, where he is a much different person.”

In part, the bible indicates God is evil: “I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the Lord, who do all these things” (Isaiah 45:7).

In the Book of Job, Satan appears as the partner of God, who on behalf of God puts the righteous one to the test. Only in postbiblical Judaism does the Devil become the adversary of God, the prince of angels, who, created by God and placed at the head of the angelic hosts, entices some of the angels into revolt against God.

Are they the same individual? It seems we'd first have to determine what this 'individual' is in detail before we know for sure.
That's not going to happen on this earth.
But we can (and rightfully do, IMO) claim that, at the absolute least, evil did come from God (be it by a personification of a being or the concept itself is immaterial in the grand scheme of things).

[William]

The above demonstrates how Christianity has attempted to separate "God" from "Satan" by making them two distinctly individual beings.

The old testament idea of The Creator has it that the entity is the deliverer of both good and evil.

Are you suggesting that the Hebrew bible presents both YHWH and Satan the Devil as the not two distinctly individuals but as a single individual?

No I am not suggesting but am claiming that The Creator is One.

The 'names' are used for identification purposes and what is being identified are the 'good' and 'evil' aspects of The Creator.

These are understood as 'different entities' but they are the same entity performing different functions, which in all truth are nether 'good' nor 'evil'.

The idea of good and evil came into the scene after the fact. It is strictly a human idea and has no correlation with all truth [re The Creator] and has compelled Western Thinking to create two images in competition with one another...fighting for the souls of individuals...

This can be observed in the behavior of Christian schisms and they being distracted by fighting about 'who interprets the bible properly' - such is "The 'doctrine of Satan" they accuse one another of being "deceived by the devil"

Even the image above is based upon Christian Imagery [It is false imagery] which Christianity planted into the world.

[William]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #85]

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... -is-satan/
notes: " In the Hebrew Bible...YHWH is ultimately a god of justice. He is behind the good and the bad, behind the blessings and the curses. It is within this divine court of justice and retribution that Satan has his origins."

This would seem to indicate that the devil, if it exists, is nothing more than a scapegoat for a devious deity known as God

Both are Christian Imagery and false for that. The one referred to as "God" is a false image of The Creator, and the one referred to as "Satan" then becomes a separate entity "threatening" this image of a false god.

The seeming cunning in this is that it causes confusion and the false images distract individuals from knowing The Creator.

But these false images are not of real beings. They are human creations.

Whereas The Creator is not. The Creator exists whether an individual is conscious of that or not.

One cannot put an image to The Creator. Below is an image that might better exemplify what the creator 'would look like' if an image were to be made...but I only use it as a means of showing that it is a far better representative than what Christians present.

[JehovahsWitness]

Are you suggesting that the Hebrew bible presents both YHWH and Satan the Devil as the not two distinctly individuals but as a single individual?

No I am not suggesting but am claiming that The Creator is One.

O okay, fair enough. Yes, indeed the bible does speak of the Creator as being one

DEUTERONOMY 6:4


Berean Study Bible
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, SATAN THE DEVIL and ...THE ORIGINAL SIN

[1213]

...Then there are the biblical occasions where an entity claiming to be The Creator claimed that one could see him, but one would die doing so.
Plus there are biblical accounts of visitations of "The Lord" who humans witnessed seeing.

Then there is Jesus saying some folk would "see" The Creator.

Please show the scriptures.

[William]

[Replying to 1213 in post #89]

Are you denying that there are scripts claiming those things happened?

[William]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #88]

Yes, indeed the bible does speak of the Creator as being one

Various authors wrote of such and in that 'spoke' of such things...through the varying filters of their belief systems.

The bible does not 'speak'. what happens is that those who read the bible speak of their interpretations of various scripts therein.

"The Creator is One" appears to me to mean that there is no thing outside of The Creator. There is no "other than" The Creator.