The Doctrine of Satan

[William]

William wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:08 pm

IF Jesus 'died that we may live" "For The Creator so loved the world...that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" THEN what does that actually mean, if all are eternal beings already?

Are you asking this rhetorically? Or is this really a question in your mind? It's a good question. Maybe you're asking it of myth-one so that he might re-think his position(s)?

It is a bit of both really.

It appears to me that the Bible is an outline of the story of human beings in relation to Satan.

It is not really so much a 'manual for life given to us from a God' so much as it is an "explanation of Satan and the effect that entity has in relation to other spirit beings"

Christians often invoke "The Devil" as a retort when it becomes obvious to them that those they are trying to convince that their particular religion is the one to follow, reject their cliam. Any opposition to their position, is regarded as "The Devil".

Indeed, it is apparent that without "The Devil" Christianity would cease to exist as a bunch of religions.

So never-to-mind the conflicting versions of The Creator they have imaged into the world...if we look at what they claim about Satan, are they united in those claims?

One thing I notice about the attributes of Satan is that he appears to be only slightly less powerful than the God of the bible...and for that, also appears to be working in a sort of congruent manner with the GotB. Certainly the GotB finds Satan extremely useful in relation to dealing with spirits incarcerated into human form.

So Satan is something of an accuser. He is also portrayed as someone who likes to seed doubt into the individual, and confusion as consequence.

The mythology as generally believed by Christians is that Satan wanted to "become like God" rather than just be a god.

Obviously he cannot make his fellow eternal beings follow along with his crazy notions as they are equal to him in every way. Satan has this weird image of The Creator which he wants to bring into the spirt realm...a being on a throne worshiped as The Creator of all that is.

However, according to Christian mythology, this being actually does sit on a throne being worshipped by spirit beings [Angels etc] which seems to contradict the prior story, which leads to confusion.

The main problem with the belief in the doctrine of Satan is that if Satan wanted to be above that image, simply replacing The Creator with himself on the throne, won't achieve that.

So now we are looking at spirit beings worshiping an image of The Creator on a throne and Satan wanting to be an actual representation of the image being worship. He wanted to fill that position with a real being [him] rather than the one conjured up by Angels [eternal spiritual entities]

"NO!" Shout the Christians! The Creator was already the real being on The Throne! Satan wanted that position!

But that contradicts the idea that Satan wanted to be in a position even better [higher] than simply being the one on The Throne.

According to the general mythology, some of the fellow Angels got on board with Satan's idea while others [the greater number of] rejected the idea.

Then there is some almost nonsensical claims that somehow the greater number of Angels overpowered Satan and his followers, and The Creator on the throne then created the physical universe as a sure way to imprison eternal beings away from them having any more disruptive influence in the none material universe of the Angels [Angelic Realm] and their Creator.

Satan - thus incarcerated - then found a way in which he could disrupt the Angelic Realm by creating human beings.

"NO" shout the Christians. The Creator created human beings!

"Okay" I reply, "If that is the case, why did The Creator place spiritual entities into the human domain [physical universe]?"

The general reply is that it was 'the other way around' The Creator placed human beings into the same Universe [!!] in which The Creator had created to imprison Satan and his followers in.

So then one is entitled [and wise] to ask "Why" The Creator did this.

The obvious answer reverts back to the idea that the Human Form - being part of the physical universe was designed to house Satan and his followers, which then implies that we human beings are Satan and his followers.

So then we enter the Garden of Eden Story...the whole bible is a story about Satan and his Followers.

Is there any reason why the above isn't true?

[Tcg]

Look at what I have written. It is not claiming that my understanding of the bible is correct. What do you have in the way of reason to show why my understanding of the bible isn't correct?

Given that you aren't making a claim that your understanding of the bible is correct, you don't have the responsibility to support a claim you haven't made. If you ever get around to making that claim, then you'd need to support it. In the meantime, no one needs to show that a claim you haven't made is false. You've provided nothing to falsify.

You've admitted that you've made no claim and you haven't. No harm, no foul, but also nothing of value in a debate setting.


Tcg

[William]

In the meantime, no one needs to show that a claim you haven't made is false. You've provided nothing to falsify.

Fortunately I am not asking that. I am asking something else, which can still be debated. My point to Myth1 was regarding that.

[myth-one.com]

Look at what I have written.

Have done that several times.

It is not claiming that my understanding of the bible is correct.

Good.

What do you have in the way of reason to show why my understanding of the bible isn't correct?

You just admitted that you are not claiming that your understanding of the Bible is correct.

Do you now want to claim that your posts are based on your understanding of the Bible?

[William]

Look at what I have written.

Have done that several times.

It is not claiming that my understanding of the bible is correct.

Good.

What do you have in the way of reason to show why my understanding of the bible isn't correct?

You just admitted that you are not claiming that your understanding of the Bible is correct.

Do you now want to claim that your posts are based on your understanding of the Bible?

Are you wanting to claim they are not?

If not, are you accepting that my understanding might be correct?

If you are, then let us examine this together in debate to see what might be discovered.

[William]

The first thing to examine is how the Serpent [Symbolizing Satan aka "Lucifer"] got into the Garden.

[myth-one.com]

The first thing to examine is how the Serpent [Symbolizing Satan aka "Lucifer"] got into the Garden.

The Garden is part of the earth which God gave Satan the power to rule over:

And the devil, taking him (Jesus) up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)

So there's no reason why Satan shouldn't there, probably with other angels under his command.

==================================================

But let's start at the beginning, a very good place to start. Here's the first verse of the Bible:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Genesis 1:1)

Whenever the beginning was, God completely created the heaven and the earth originally at that time according to verse one!

After that original creation, the earth was without form, void, and dark:

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. (Genesis 1:1-2)

Okay, that covers about 4.54 billion years of the history of the earth. Only about 6,000 years to go.

Are we together so far? Any questions?

[William]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #27]

The Garden is part of the earth which God gave Satan the power to rule over:

And the devil, taking him (Jesus) up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)

So there's no reason why Satan shouldn't there, probably with other angels under his command.

Okay. Accepting that, we now have something of confirmation re my hunch that the bible is a story regarding humans and Satan, is a correct perception.

That is what I wrote in the OP;

"It appears to me that the Bible is an outline of the story of human beings in relation to Satan."

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #27]

The Garden is part of the earth which God gave Satan the power to rule over:

And the devil, taking him (Jesus) up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)

So there's no reason why Satan shouldn't there, probably with other angels under his command.

Okay. Accepting that, we now have something of confirmation re my hunch that the bible is a story regarding humans and Satan, is a correct perception.

That is what I wrote in the OP;

"It appears to me that the Bible is an outline of the story of human beings in relation to Satan."

Whatever.

To continue, after creating the heaven and the earth good in verse one of Genesis chapter 1, Satan and a host of angels under his command were assigned to care for and have dominion over the earth.

But Satan decided sometime between the first two verses of the Bible to rebel against God. The ultimate results of his rebellion and rule are the conditions of chaos described on the earth in verse two.

Why did Satan rebel? It was a grab for power:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

The revolution was defeated, and Satan and his angels were cast back to the earth:

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:9)

At this point God intervened and went to Plan B. He returned and re-created the earth to it's original good condition, and made mortal mankind a little lower than the angels to be trained as replacement eternal caretakers for those who rebelled.

Man was given dominion over the earth and commanded to replenish the earth, thus replacing the angels.

The original angels assigned to the earth were obviously not respecters of God at the time of their rebellion. These lower beings (mankind) must respect and believe in the Son of God as a prerequisite to becoming a spiritual being which lives forever.

Man is in training to learn that the best way to rule the earth is under the rules of God:

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)

We learn this lesson by trying our way and failing. The answers about the best way to live are sealed in the scriptures. We learn them through trial and error and hard knocks if at all.

The conclusion of each person's short human life on earth should be to learn that there is a better way to live, God's way. Having learned this lesson, these new spirits being produced for the Kingdom of God, should be less inclined to revolt.

Any questions?

[William]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #27]

The Garden is part of the earth which God gave Satan the power to rule over:

And the devil, taking him (Jesus) up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)

So there's no reason why Satan shouldn't there, probably with other angels under his command.

Okay. Accepting that, we now have something of confirmation re my hunch that the bible is a story regarding humans and Satan, is a correct perception.

That is what I wrote in the OP;

"It appears to me that the Bible is an outline of the story of human beings in relation to Satan."

Whatever.

To continue, after creating the heaven and the earth good in verse one of Genesis chapter 1, Satan and a host of angels under his command were assigned to care for and have dominion over the earth.

Do you have support for this claim?

But Satan decided sometime between the first two verses of the Bible to rebel against God. The ultimate results of his rebellion and rule are the conditions of chaos described on the earth in verse two.

That is why I wrote "The mythology as generally believed by Christians is that Satan wanted to "become like God" rather than just be a god." in the OP.

So in that the Physical Universe, and primarily planet Earth are where these rebellious ones were sent. Assigned to "to care for and have dominion over the earth" as you put it...[not such a bad punishment for the uprising I suppose...]

Why did Satan rebel? It was a grab for power:

Usually grabs for power are caused by weaknesses which can be capitalized on...which sounds strange. Do you have any idea what that weakness might have been?

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

Yes - that is why I wrote "The main problem with the belief in the doctrine of Satan is that if Satan wanted to be above that image, simply replacing The Creator with himself on the throne, won't achieve that." in the OP...
How can one "fall from heaven" if one has not even "ascended into heaven"? What are 'the stars of God"?

Whoever wrote that appears to believe that Heaven is situated "somewhere in the clouds above the Earth" - perhaps between the troposphere and the mesosphere and "Gods Stars" are simple the stars of the Galaxy. [Milky Way]

The revolution was defeated, and Satan and his angels were cast back to the earth:

So how did they rise into the atmosphere? Did they have aircraft?

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:9)

So this all happened before the Human form was created...

At this point God intervened and went to Plan B.

The God had a plan "B" "Just in case" I suppose...So - from what you claim here, this was all happening long before the Earth stabilized enough for lifeforms to be able to be created from it...even before the dinosaurs...

He returned and re-created the earth to it's original good condition, and made mortal mankind a little lower than the angels to be trained as replacement eternal caretakers for those who rebelled.

So no - The Earth was created 'good' from the go get, and Lucifer and his team of gardeners were given the task of taking care of it, and Lucifer did not like this lowly station and formulated a plan in which he and the others could fly up into the clouds and take over Heaven and replace those in charge of Heaven with himself and his supporters.
His plans didn't work out and the Earth was decimated as a result of the conflict that happened.

The Creator then recreated the Earth back to its former glory...so - why - if The Creator could do this, was Lucifer and his fellow gardeners required to keep up maintenance mk1 Earth?
Perhaps, to give them something to do, I suppose...

Man was given dominion over the earth and commanded to replenish the earth, thus replacing the angels.

By "Angels", I suppose you are referring to Lucifer and his cohorts...

The original angels assigned to the earth were obviously not respecters of God at the time of their rebellion. These lower beings (mankind) must respect and believe in the Son of God as a prerequisite to becoming a spiritual being which lives forever.

So Humans became the new gardeners of Earth mk2. What happened to Lucifer and his cohorts? Oh that's right...you explained this earlier...in answer to my question "The first thing to examine is how the Serpent [Symbolizing Satan aka "Lucifer"] got into the Garden." you replied;

"The Garden is part of the earth which God gave Satan the power to rule over: So there's no reason why Satan shouldn't there, probably with other angels under his command."

So in that, despite this attempt at a takeover, The Creator - after pushing back the rebellion and assault against heaven, repairing the damage caused by that event, [plan "B" as you referred to it] creating Human Forms in which to put Spirits into, to do the task originally assigned to Lucifer and company, then allows that upstart to have influence in regard to plan B?

Man is in training to learn that the best way to rule the earth is under the rules of God:

So Lucifer and co being in a position to influence human thinking, is somehow going to achieve that...yes - it does bode well with my thinking that "It appears to me that the Bible is an outline of the story of human beings in relation to Satan."

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)

We learn this lesson by trying our way and failing. The answers about the best way to live are sealed in the scriptures. We learn them through trial and error and hard knocks if at all.

So in that, it is not necessarily that "the whole bible is a story about Satan and his Followers." but it is a case that - as I noted in the OP, "One thing I notice about the attributes of Satan is that he appears to be only slightly less powerful than the God of the bible...and for that, also appears to be working in a sort of congruent manner with the GotB. Certainly the GotB finds Satan extremely useful in relation to dealing with spirits incarcerated into human form."

The conclusion of each person's short human life on earth should be to learn that there is a better way to live, God's way. Having learned this lesson, these new spirits being produced for the Kingdom of God, should be less inclined to revolt.

Something Lucifer did not have instilled within him from the go-get yes? But how in reality can any being 'revolt' against The Creator, other than believing that they are created?

If they understood from the go-get that they [Spirits] are aspects of The Creator within form, surely this would have them understand the pointlessness of revolting...or perhaps being in any kind of form, feeling revolting is a natural outcome.

Whatever the case, once one learns one is Spirit in form and that Spirit is eternal [because The Creator is eternal] one also see that revolting against The Creator is really revolting against the Self.

Lesson "learned"...but "less inclined"? Surely you meant "Nevermore inclined"? Or is there going to be a "Plan "C""?

All in all, this bodes well with my saying in the OP "So then one is entitled [and wise] to ask "Why" The Creator did this.

The obvious answer reverts back to the idea that the Human Form - being part of the physical universe was designed to house Satan and his followers, which then implies that we human beings are Satan and his followers."

Any questions?

[myth-one.com]

The Garden is part of the earth which God gave Satan the power to rule over:

And the devil, taking him (Jesus) up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. (Luke 4:5-7)

So there's no reason why Satan shouldn't be there, probably with other angels under his command.

Okay. Accepting that, we now have something of confirmation re my hunch that the bible is a story regarding humans and Satan, is a correct perception.

That is what I wrote in the OP;

"It appears to me that the Bible is an outline of the story of human beings in relation to Satan."

Whatever.

To continue, after creating the heaven and the earth good in verse one of Genesis chapter 1, Satan and a host of angels under his command were assigned to care for and have dominion over the earth.

Do you have support for this claim?

You just accepted above that Satan ruled over the earth and had underlings under his command.

But Satan decided sometime between the first two verses of the Bible to rebel against God. The ultimate results of his rebellion and rule are the conditions of chaos described on the earth in verse two.

That is why I wrote "The mythology as generally believed by Christians is that Satan wanted to "become like God" rather than just be a god." in the OP.

Satan wanted to become like the most high God. God the Father.

So in that the Physical Universe, and primarily planet Earth are where these rebellious ones were sent. Assigned to "to care for and have dominion over the earth" as you put it...[not such a bad punishment for the uprising I suppose...]

No, they were initially assigned there as their place of work -- the earth was their "first estate" according to the Bible. They were created to live on and maintain the earth.

Those angels under Satan's control who rebelled are presently in "chains" awaiting judgment after the Second Coming of Christ:

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)

Being on the earth was not and is not now a punishment. No other place in the universe has been found that could support physical life. And actually, it's worse that that. Man can comfortably survive only within a 4-5 mile thick area from the surface of the earth. And we are quickly destroying that area.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

Yes - that is why I wrote "The main problem with the belief in the doctrine of Satan is that if Satan wanted to be above that image, simply replacing The Creator with himself on the throne, won't achieve that." in the OP...
How can one "fall from heaven" if one has not even "ascended into heaven"? What are 'the stars of God"?

"Stars" is symbolism for angels in the Bible.

For example, although I do not know the exact number, one-third of the number of angels under Satan's control joined in his rebellion against God:

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth... (Revelation 12:4)

The revolution was defeated, and Satan and his angels were cast back to the earth:

So how did they rise into the atmosphere? Did they have aircraft?

Little is said about angels or gods, except that they are immortal spiritual bodied beings, are not restrained by the physical world, and can move "as the wind." Mankind cannot understand things within the spiritual world.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:9)

So this all happened before the Human form was created...

Yes, billions of years before.

At this point God intervened and went to Plan B.

The God had a plan "B" "Just in case" I suppose...So - from what you claim here, this was all happening long before the Earth stabilized enough for lifeforms to be able to be created from it...even before the dinosaurs...

Adam and Eve were created about 6,000 years ago.

But the universe is about 13.8 billion years old, and the earth is about 4.54 billion years old.

He returned and re-created the earth to it's original good condition, and made mortal mankind a little lower than the angels to be trained as replacement eternal caretakers for those who rebelled.

So no - The Earth was created 'good' from the go get, and Lucifer and his team of gardeners were given the task of taking care of it, and Lucifer did not like this lowly station and formulated a plan in which he and the others could fly up into the clouds and take over Heaven and replace those in charge of Heaven with himself and his supporters.
His plans didn't work out and the Earth was decimated as a result of the conflict that happened.

Close. I don't know what the job requirements for taking care of a planet are. And they probably aren't slowed down by having to fly. At the speeds man can reach today, it would take about 70,000 years to reach Alpha Centauri, the nearest star -- which is only 4 light years from earth.

Man was commanded to "replenish" the earth. Replenish means restore to a former level or condition.

The Earth was not decimated as a result of the conflict! The earth came to be without form, void, and dark as a result of those who abandoned their responsibilities of caring for the earth. Whatever they were supposed to do, did not be done.

The Creator then recreated the Earth back to its former glory...so - why - if The Creator could do this, was Lucifer and his fellow gardeners required to keep up maintenance mk1 Earth?

You're speaking in tongues again. What is mk1? Are you referring to the Volkswagen Golf Mk1?

Man was given dominion over the earth and commanded to replenish the earth, thus replacing the angels.

By "Angels", I suppose you are referring to Lucifer and his cohorts...

Yes, specifically those angels assigned to the earth who rebelled.

The original angels assigned to the earth were obviously not respecters of God at the time of their rebellion. These lower beings (mankind) must respect and believe in the Son of God as a prerequisite to becoming a spiritual being which lives forever.

So in that, despite this attempt at a takeover, The Creator - after pushing back the rebellion and assault against heaven, repairing the damage caused by that event, [plan "B" as you referred to it] creating Human Forms in which to put Spirits into, to do the task originally assigned to Lucifer and company, then allows that upstart to have influence in regard to plan B?

No. Plan A was creating immortal angels to be earthly caretakers.

Plan B was creating mortal mankind, giving them a taste of life, and allowing them to accept or reject the job eternally by becoming angels.

Man is in training to learn that the best way to rule the earth is under the rules of God:

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)

We learn this lesson by trying our way and failing. The answers about the best way to live are sealed in the scriptures. We learn them through trial and error and hard knocks if at all.

So in that, it is not necessarily that "the whole bible is a story about Satan and his Followers." but it is a case that - as I noted in the OP, "One thing I notice about the attributes of Satan is that he appears to be only slightly less powerful than the God of the bible...and for that, also appears to be working in a sort of congruent manner with the GotB. Certainly the GotB finds Satan extremely useful in relation to dealing with spirits incarcerated into human form."

THERE ARE NO SPIRITS INCARCERATED IN HUMAN FORMS!

Why do you think there are?

Why would any spirit want to be in a physical body? Perhaps the masochist angels?

There are two type of bodies -- natural and spiritual.

There is no hybrid being consisting of a spirit or soul living within a physical body described anywhere in the scriptures! Man is a natural body, and angels are spiritual bodies. Therefore, man remains lower than the angels.

The Bible specifically states that they do not mix. The natural body comes first and is then followed by the spiritual body:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (I Corinthians 15:46)

The natural body comes first and the spiritual body comes last if at all. They are different and are never merged together at anytime in the scriptures! All men are born as natural or physical flesh and blood bodies, and those who believe in Jesus will be born again as spiritual bodies when Jesus returns!

The conclusion of each person's short human life on earth should be to learn that there is a better way to live, God's way. Having learned this lesson, these new spirits being produced for the Kingdom of God, should be less inclined to revolt.

If they understood from the go-get that they [Spirits] are aspects of The Creator within form, . . .

Spirits don't have a form and do not need a form.

Form is a characteristic of the physical world.

Spirits do not need to be seen.

The obvious answer reverts back to the idea that the Human Form - being part of the physical universe was designed to house Satan and his followers, which then implies that we human beings are Satan and his followers."

The human form was not designed to house Satan and his followers.

Man is relatively new on the scale of the time.

God existed from the beginning.

Do you think God was somehow restricted in his interaction with the physical world because he did not have a physical form?

Man fears things which he does not understand, the unknown.

Man makes up myths to assuage our fears.

Myth one is the immortal soul myth -- that all mankind is created with an immortal part which lives forever after the body dies. This myth began with the serpent telling mankind that they would surely not die. It is based on denial. We fear death, so we fight this fear through denial -- claiming immortality.

Let's call your myth of "spirits living within a human form" myth two.

What is the origin of your myth two?