The Doctrine of Satan

[William]

William wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:08 pm

IF Jesus 'died that we may live" "For The Creator so loved the world...that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" THEN what does that actually mean, if all are eternal beings already?

Are you asking this rhetorically? Or is this really a question in your mind? It's a good question. Maybe you're asking it of myth-one so that he might re-think his position(s)?

It is a bit of both really.

It appears to me that the Bible is an outline of the story of human beings in relation to Satan.

It is not really so much a 'manual for life given to us from a God' so much as it is an "explanation of Satan and the effect that entity has in relation to other spirit beings"

Christians often invoke "The Devil" as a retort when it becomes obvious to them that those they are trying to convince that their particular religion is the one to follow, reject their cliam. Any opposition to their position, is regarded as "The Devil".

Indeed, it is apparent that without "The Devil" Christianity would cease to exist as a bunch of religions.

So never-to-mind the conflicting versions of The Creator they have imaged into the world...if we look at what they claim about Satan, are they united in those claims?

One thing I notice about the attributes of Satan is that he appears to be only slightly less powerful than the God of the bible...and for that, also appears to be working in a sort of congruent manner with the GotB. Certainly the GotB finds Satan extremely useful in relation to dealing with spirits incarcerated into human form.

So Satan is something of an accuser. He is also portrayed as someone who likes to seed doubt into the individual, and confusion as consequence.

The mythology as generally believed by Christians is that Satan wanted to "become like God" rather than just be a god.

Obviously he cannot make his fellow eternal beings follow along with his crazy notions as they are equal to him in every way. Satan has this weird image of The Creator which he wants to bring into the spirt realm...a being on a throne worshiped as The Creator of all that is.

However, according to Christian mythology, this being actually does sit on a throne being worshipped by spirit beings [Angels etc] which seems to contradict the prior story, which leads to confusion.

The main problem with the belief in the doctrine of Satan is that if Satan wanted to be above that image, simply replacing The Creator with himself on the throne, won't achieve that.

So now we are looking at spirit beings worshiping an image of The Creator on a throne and Satan wanting to be an actual representation of the image being worship. He wanted to fill that position with a real being [him] rather than the one conjured up by Angels [eternal spiritual entities]

"NO!" Shout the Christians! The Creator was already the real being on The Throne! Satan wanted that position!

But that contradicts the idea that Satan wanted to be in a position even better [higher] than simply being the one on The Throne.

According to the general mythology, some of the fellow Angels got on board with Satan's idea while others [the greater number of] rejected the idea.

Then there is some almost nonsensical claims that somehow the greater number of Angels overpowered Satan and his followers, and The Creator on the throne then created the physical universe as a sure way to imprison eternal beings away from them having any more disruptive influence in the none material universe of the Angels [Angelic Realm] and their Creator.

Satan - thus incarcerated - then found a way in which he could disrupt the Angelic Realm by creating human beings.

"NO" shout the Christians. The Creator created human beings!

"Okay" I reply, "If that is the case, why did The Creator place spiritual entities into the human domain [physical universe]?"

The general reply is that it was 'the other way around' The Creator placed human beings into the same Universe [!!] in which The Creator had created to imprison Satan and his followers in.

So then one is entitled [and wise] to ask "Why" The Creator did this.

The obvious answer reverts back to the idea that the Human Form - being part of the physical universe was designed to house Satan and his followers, which then implies that we human beings are Satan and his followers.

So then we enter the Garden of Eden Story...the whole bible is a story about Satan and his Followers.

Is there any reason why the above isn't true?

[JehovahsWitness]

The bible does not 'speak'.

CLARIFICATION: When I said the bible "speaks" I do not mean the paper and ink has vocal cords and and literally produces audible sound. I use it as in the written words can be read in the bible. For the sake of clarity I apologise and retract my previous response entirely. My answers is now as follows:


O okay, fair enough. Yes, indeed the following written words (English) can be read in the bible and I quote:

DEUTERONOMY 6:4


Berean Study Bible
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

FREE WILL, SATAN THE DEVIL and ...THE ORIGINAL SIN

JW

[William]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #92]

DEUTERONOMY 6:4


Berean Study Bible
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One.

One what? How do you interpret that?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #92]

DEUTERONOMY 6:4


Berean Study Bible
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One.

One what? How do you interpret that?

For me I would interpret it to mean that JEHOVAH is one unique individual, one person . And that He is consistent and loyal (not one person one day and another the next).





JW

[William]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #92]

DEUTERONOMY 6:4


Berean Study Bible
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One.

One what? How do you interpret that?

For me I would interpret it to mean that JEHOVAH is one unique individual, one person . And that He is consistent and loyal (not one person one day and another the next).
JW

Yes and in that he brings evil and good, blesses and curses.

[All bible quotes KJV]
James 2:19
“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”

Deuteronomy 4:35
“Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.”

Deuteronomy 32:39
“See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.”

2 Samuel 7:22
“Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.”

1 Chronicles 17:20
“O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.”

Psalms 83:18
“That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.”

Psalms 86:10
“For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.”

Isaiah 43:10
“Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.”

Isaiah 44:6
“Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:18
“For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.”

Mark 12: 28-31
And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

1 Corinthians 8:4
“As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.”

Ephesians 4: 4-6
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

When folk refer to Lucifer, they are referring to an aspect of The Creator. Not some other being which existed alongside The Creator as a separate entity.

There are no separate entities. All are of the One Entity and those who do not realize this, act erroneously - in accordance with their beliefs, rather than with the realization of all truth.

There is no image of The Creator which is true, apart from this.

The Creator is ALL. Not a unique personality separate from all other unique personalities, as you interpret.

[JehovahsWitness]

The Creator is ALL. Not a unique personality separate from all other unique personalities, as you interpret.

Yes well like me you have just shared your opinion. Is that not so?

[JehovahsWitness]

[All bible quotes KJV]
James 2:19
“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”

Deuteronomy 4:35
“Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.”

Deuteronomy 32:39
“See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.”

2 Samuel 7:22
“Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.”

1 Chronicles 17:20
“O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.”

Psalms 83:18
“That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.”

Psalms 86:10
“For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.”

Isaiah 43:10
“Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.”

Isaiah 44:6
“Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:18
“For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.”

Mark 12: 28-31
And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

1 Corinthians 8:4
“As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.”

Ephesians 4: 4-6
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Good scriptures I see them all supporting what I just said. Namely ...

JEHOVAH is one unique individual, one person . And that He is consistent and loyal (not one person one day and another the next).

JW

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #89]

Are you denying that there are scripts claiming those things happened?

I would like to see what is really written and what is just your interpretation.

[William]

The Creator is ALL. Not a unique personality separate from all other unique personalities, as you interpret.

Yes well like me you have just shared your opinion. Is that not so?

Even so, our opinions differ enough that we do not agree. Is that not so?

[William]

[Replying to 1213 in post #89]

Are you denying that there are scripts claiming those things happened?

I would like to see what is really written and what is just your interpretation.

See the post above yours. JW is also claiming that those scripts support her interpretation [opinion] - so what are you going to use as justification that your interpretation supersedes either of our opinions?

Because 'what is really written' obviously cannot achieve agreement, therefore what is really written is not enough information to remove the ambiguity because what is really written is ambiguous.

Light Is Information

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to William in post #100]

Because 'what is really written' obviously cannot achieve agreement, therefore what is really written is not enough information to remove the ambiguity because what is really written is ambiguous.

Sometimes what is written is ambiguous (or even in error). Sometimes what is written is only deemed 'ambiguous' because someone wants it to mean something other than what is written.

If one is just going by what is written though, the Adversary (the one called the devil or Satan) and God have a conversation (in Job); they are therefore not the same being. Same with Christ and the Adversary; they had an exchange when Christ went into the desert and fasted. They are also, therefore, not the same being.


Where [the LORD] is One, that sounds pretty straightforward to me. Note that it does not say 'the creation' is one. It does not say 'all beings are one' (and in fact when it comes to 'one', meaning a union - Christ prayed that His disciples and those what believe in Him may be one. You don't have to pray for something to be, if it already is). It says [the LORD] (where 'the LORD' is just replacing the actual name of God) is one.



Peace again to you.