The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife

[William]

Lately some of us have been arguing from three differing positions is which the bible can be used to defend all three. All three appear to agree that each individual has a "Soul" although there may be disagreement on what the exact function of a "Soul" is.

[1] A "Person" is "Spirit" and temporarily exists as a human being until the body dies then that "Person" enters an afterlife and is judged by "God" and is condemned or saved. Those saved go to "heaven" and those condemned go to "Hell" - or in some variances on this, are "exterminated".

[2] A "Person" a "Human being" and when the human being dies, that is the end of that person unless "God" judges them as "saved" in which case that person is resurrected and given a new body which will last forever more.

[3] A "Person" is an eternal Spirit in human form and when the body dies, that Spirit immediately moves to the next phase and either knowingly or unknowingly creates for their self, their next experience, based upon a combination of mainly what they believe, what their overall attitude is and what they did in the previous phase.

Often any different position which opposes another might logically mean that they both cannot be correct, assuming one or the other is true.

Both [1]&[2] fall into this category as they cannot both be true. [1]&[2] also both agree that [3] is false.

However, [3] Can be true without making the other two false.

And [3] - just as with [1]&[2] can be backed by the bible, depending on what parts of the bible once uses to do so.

The bible is interpreted throughout, based upon which position [1][2] or [3] is being used to interpret it through [the filter].

If [1]&[2] oppose each other but can still be "proven" by using the bible, then this makes the bible something of a contradiction.

But if [3] - although different from [1]&[2] does not oppose either [1]&[2] and can still be "proven" by using the bible just like [1]&[2], then [3] takes away the contradictory aspect of the bible which [1]&[2] create by being in opposition.

Question: Would it be fair to say therefore, that [3] is the best position to assume on the overall biblical script to do with the subject of the next phase [afterlife]?

[The Tanager]

Q: Presuming the above is true, can we identify duality existing within the immaterial prior to the creations of this Material Universe? In other words, are we able to see why Demons and Angels should have existed prior to Human beings?

I've always had a hard time wrapping my brain around a monistic view (such as yours) and the multiplicity of appearances of things but that aside, presuming your above points are true, there is no necessity for a good/evil distinction at the immaterial level prior to the creation of the material universe.

[William]

4. Jesus also taught the trustworthiness of scripture, the Old Testament [John 10:35, Matt 5:17-18], which teaches about angels in numerous places. I won’t share all of those verses because I think you’ve said you agree the Old Testament teaches about them but I can if I am wrong there.


It has been awhile since I engaged with the Jesus Seminar research (and others of that ilk), and this topic wasn’t on the top of my mind, but I don’t remember reading much discussion on Jesus’ view of angels. In my experience people that respect Jesus as a man but not a risen, divine Savior, usually think Jesus either did believe in them (and was wrong) or couldn’t have believed in them because of their own naturalistic bias against the existence of the supernatural rather than actual evidence to discount these specific sayings. I’ve been trying to find what the Westar Institute/Jesus Seminary folk decided on in their votes on the above specific verses but I’m striking out so far.

Thanks for your informative post.

Yes - relevant OT verse should be included as they set up the conditions and may give account as to the reasons for why Angels and Demons actually existed before the advent of human imagination, as well as that it gives some foundation material as to why Jesus may have believed this.

[William]

Q: Presuming the above is true, can we identify duality existing within the immaterial prior to the creations of this Material Universe? In other words, are we able to see why Demons and Angels should have existed prior to Human beings?

I've always had a hard time wrapping my brain around a monistic view (such as yours) and the multiplicity of appearances of things but that aside, presuming your above points are true, there is no necessity for a good/evil distinction at the immaterial level prior to the creation of the material universe.

Correct.

This may help you to grasp the understanding of a 'monistic view' as the one which is necessary to adopt rather than the filter you currently see things through.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

For the body is not one member, but many.

If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

And if they were all one member, where were the body?

But now are they many members, yet but one body.

And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:

That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

Re Angels and Demons, there is already schism re the immaterial, which is counter intuitive as it presents the idea of a Creator lacking true dominion of oneness. Of understanding ones Self.

Traditionally we have a story which goes somewhat along the lines that something terrible occurred which caused schism in the immaterial, and along with that, we have The Creator creating the material, which is counter-intuitive when it becomes apparent that this Creator hadn't actually dealt with the problem of schism in the immaterial.

Thus we have a continuation of schism transferred into the eventual material.

This would then have us [in the material] wondering if the material was created simply to continue to try and fix a schism which occurred in the immaterial prior to material being created.

Then we have biblical Jesus telling us how schism is dealt with according to him.

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

So is one to think then that perhaps the material universe was created as a means of 'cutting the offending part off and throwing it somewhere?'

Is that the most logical manner in which a schism is dealt with?

Appling Occam's razor, cutting off the idea that schism happened at all in the immaterial, we can view the idea of Angels and Demons as coming from the material through Human imagination re genuine Human experience, specifically whereby the Spirit [immaterial Eternal Spirits] ] engages with the imagination of The Creator and creates the material, and enters said material completely blank-slated...without any knowledge of anything...and see through experience, what might occur.

And what occurred was that through the Human device, imagined things happened in order to give some explanations for the Human condition re the Human situation [in a vast unknown - yet knowable - reality] and due to the nature of that reality experience, Angels and Demons were imagined to being real, and the real condition of the immaterial situation prior to the material being formed.

[The Tanager]

Q: Presuming the above is true, can we identify duality existing within the immaterial prior to the creations of this Material Universe? In other words, are we able to see why Demons and Angels should have existed prior to Human beings?

I've always had a hard time wrapping my brain around a monistic view (such as yours) and the multiplicity of appearances of things but that aside, presuming your above points are true, there is no necessity for a good/evil distinction at the immaterial level prior to the creation of the material universe.

Correct.

This may help you to grasp the understanding of a 'monistic view' as the one which is necessary to adopt rather than the filter you currently see things through.

It does not. I see no reasoning given for believing the steps you wrote out are true. Yes, they are logically consistent with each other but you aren’t providing the reasoning for those premises/steps being true.

Re Angels and Demons, there is already schism re the immaterial, which is counter intuitive as it presents the idea of a Creator lacking true dominion of oneness. Of understanding ones Self.

If monism is true, I agree. I don’t see any reason to believe monism is true. But even if monism is true, that the all-knowing Creator would be able to experience ignorance is also, at best, counter-intuitive, and at worst, logically contradictory.

Traditionally we have a story which goes somewhat along the lines that something terrible occurred which caused schism in the immaterial, and along with that, we have The Creator creating the material, which is counter-intuitive when it becomes apparent that this Creator hadn't actually dealt with the problem of schism in the immaterial.

That’s not the Biblical picture of creation of the material. The material isn’t created in order to try to deal with the problem of schism. God deals with this problem of schism seeking good and eventually that must be done by doing away with evil.

Then we have biblical Jesus telling us how schism is dealt with according to him.

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

So is one to think then that perhaps the material universe was created as a means of 'cutting the offending part off and throwing it somewhere?'

Is that the most logical manner in which a schism is dealt with?

I don’t think it is. You are bringing in this context of immaterial and material schism when it’s not what Jesus was verbally addressing in this text. He is telling people who aren’t taking temptation and sin seriously to take temptation and sin seriously.

Appling Occam's razor, cutting off the idea that schism happened at all in the immaterial, we can view the idea of Angels and Demons as coming from the material through Human imagination re genuine Human experience, specifically whereby the Spirit [immaterial Eternal Spirits] ] engages with the imagination of The Creator and creates the material, and enters said material completely blank-slated...without any knowledge of anything...and see through experience, what might occur.

First, Occam’s razor is only beneficial when all else is equal. I don’t think all else is equal. For instance, if free will exists, then schism is inherently there, to where you couldn’t cut it off. But, even assuming it is, your view has The Creator undertaking purposeful schism within Itself at the point of Creation. Thus, Occam’s razor would say to you, in this line of reasoning, to not believe in a Creator forming a Creation at all. So, I don’t see how Occam’s razor would favor your view over mine.

As to Old Testament passages, here are some points I have found:

1. There are many angels (Daniel 7:10)
2. They have different ranks (Daniel 10:13)
3. They are extremely powerful and execute God’s judgment (2 Kings 19:35)
4. They help humans (2 Kings 6:8-18; 1 Kings 19:5-8, Psalm 91:9-12)
5. They can assume human form (Judges 13:8-20)
6. They play a role in the destiny of nations (Daniel 10:13-20)
7. Satan (adversary/accuser) is the principal name given to the devil (Job 1)

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #295]

First, Occam’s razor is only beneficial when all else is equal. I don’t think all else is equal. For instance, if free will exists, then schism is inherently there, to where you couldn’t cut it off. But, even assuming it is, your view has The Creator undertaking purposeful schism within Itself at the point of Creation. Thus, Occam’s razor would say to you, in this line of reasoning, to not believe in a Creator forming a Creation at all. So, I don’t see how Occam’s razor would favor your view over mine.

We will uncover the details once we establish the beginning point of our own schism and examine those details more closely.

As to Old Testament passages, here are some points I have found:

1. There are many angels (Daniel 7:10)

As with Johns revelation, this vision itself does not have the reader having to conclude that Daniel wasn't experiencing something he created through his own beliefs, and subsequently brought this information into the material and used it as a truth for everyone else to except and expect re 'how things roll in the immaterial'.

2. They have different ranks (Daniel 10:13)

As with Johns revelation, this vision itself does not have the reader having to conclude that Daniel wasn't experiencing something he created through his own beliefs, and subsequently brought this information into the material and used it as a truth for everyone else to except and expect re 'how things roll in the immaterial'.

As I mentioned in an earlier post,
William: Eternal Spirts act as a conduit between what is already and what is to become.
Their role or purpose is to "deliver the goods" as it were - emissaries and co-creators - the vessels[means] in which [through which] The Creator Creates.


In this case, Daniel was the creator of his own vision, using the very same medium [The Creator Mind] in which to project his beliefs onto/into and the result was an instant manifestation of the expectations of the individual.

3. They are extremely powerful and execute God’s judgment (2 Kings 19:35)

Here we have an activity involving the material supposedly being manipulated by the immaterial, a frequent enough thing re the Bible, as to show that folk believe such things.
So far though, I have seen no evidence that it is necessary to distinguish Eternal Spirits as "Angels" or "Demons" as the tasks performed re interacting with the material, could be accomplished by any Eternal Spirit who has the power to do so.
From the genuine Human perspective, the added labels are simply perspective. Those slain by this (2 Kings 19:35) event would have seen the "avenging Angel" as something Demonic.

4. They help humans (2 Kings 6:8-18; 1 Kings 19:5-8, Psalm 91:9-12)

Fireside stories at best. In relation to Human Warfare [common theme] embellishment is expected. Winning and attributing the win to ones image of the immaterial, has influential advantages in the material. To impose the immaterial with the material, is to dress it up in the images of Human imagination.

5. They can assume human form (Judges 13:8-20)

Apparently they can be mimicked by Satan as well. "For Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." Dressing up the immaterial to deceive those who do not understand that the Spirit is not the form it wears...is a Human activity.

6. They play a role in the destiny of nations (Daniel 10:13-20)
7. Satan (adversary/accuser) is the principal name given to the devil (Job 1)

As can be seen, another sensible reason for cutting away the notion that Eternal Spirits are either 'Angels" or Demons" is that they all have the same abilities and the added layer simply causes unnecessary confusion regarding immaterial activity with the material.

[The Tanager]

As with Johns revelation, this vision itself does not have the reader having to conclude that Daniel wasn't experiencing something he created through his own beliefs, and subsequently brought this information into the material and used it as a truth for everyone else to except and expect re 'how things roll in the immaterial'....

Agreed.

Remember the argument, though. Jesus believed and taught that Scripture (which, for him included Daniel) teaches truth. Daniel (and other texts) teach angels as existing. Therefore, Jesus believed and taught that angels exist.

So, your critique must lie elsewhere. Is it Step B4 (in post 290), where you don’t think the passages I mentioned mean that Jesus thought Scripture taught truth? Is it in Steps B1-3, where you have reason to reject those specific teachings from Jesus? Is it in Step A4 about trusting what the Gospels say Jesus taught unless shown evidence to the contrary? Is it in Step A3 about the primary nature of these teachings? Is it in Step A2 about the intention of the Gospel writers? Is it in Step A1 about the accuracy of the copies of the original texts? Is it in the previous step about what makes something historically reliable, that history can be known, or what standard (certainty/reasonableness) we should use in forming our beliefs?

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #297]

Remember the argument, though. Jesus believed and taught that Scripture (which, for him included Daniel) teaches truth. Daniel (and other texts) teach angels as existing. Therefore, Jesus believed and taught that angels exist.

That is not the focus right now, because our schism begins prior to the formation of material.

As far as the scriptures that existed at the time Jesus was experiencing his particular Human incarnation, I have already argued that this would be a case of working with what he had to work with, which were beliefs based upon Human ignorance and imagination.
Most of what Jesus knew as truth regarding the immaterial, would have been beyond his followers ability to believe, especially if it contradicted their own beliefs.

Thus, to say directly that every Human being was really an Eternal Spirit having an experience being Human, and that when their Human instrument finally died, they would immediately move onto the next phase of experience and create for themselves that next experience, would have been impossible for them to believe as it was simply opposed to most everything they had been taught to believe in as true/truth.

We know that religious laws - claimed to be the work of the divine - allowed for opposing views to be met with the death penalty. Jesus had to take care in how he seeded the information he had about the immaterial.

His choice of path therefore was to work with the beliefs most folk had about everything, and tweak that for the purpose of redirecting their beliefs to give them the best chance at more positive outcomes re the Next Phase.

What I have asked you to provide is your own rational for believing that Angels and Demons existed prior to the formation of the material. Claiming "Jesus believed" moves the explanation away from a rational-based one and to a faith-based one. What I am after from you is why you think Angels and Demons existed prior to the formation of the material.

Post #288 goes into more detail as to the processes involved in creating. Those are what I am working off of as being the rational, re my own argument.

[William]

Q: Presuming the above is true, can we identify duality existing within the immaterial prior to the creations of this Material Universe? In other words, are we able to see why Demons and Angels should have existed prior to Human beings?

I've always had a hard time wrapping my brain around a monistic view (such as yours) and the multiplicity of appearances of things

Perhaps this might help.


Beith is the 2nd letter of the Hebrew alphabet, signifying the number two. Beith is the first letter of the story of creation, starting the entire Torah/Bible –ברא בראשית.
Beith represents the beginning of duality, with the One Creator bringing forth a created world, so that there can be both a giver (the Creator) and a receiver (the created world) for the Creator to bestow upon. This creates a dramatic leap from Absolute Oneness to the ability for there to be two. It also creates the possibility for all duality and opposites – yes and no, hot and cold, man and woman, up and down, etc.
Beith’s literal meaning and form denote a house, and it represents the universal concept of a container or vessel. Thus the created world is meant to house within it the spiritual. The physical world is meant to be a place for the Creator’s glory to manifest. The body is meant to contain the soul, allowing it to act in this world. The dual world actually contains within it the Ultimate Oneness, but concealed. The Beith is the tool, the source of all building, containing and then bringing forth all of the other letters.
[LINK]

[Revelations won]

Regarding the afterlife:


All mankind is like the first man Adam in that all die:

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)

Likewise, all mankind who ever died will be resurrected back to life:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

However, all will not be resurrected at the same time. There will be an order to the resurrections.

Jesus Christ will be resurrected first, and that has already occurred.

My response:

Is it not also very interesting to observe that Christ the creator of all things pertaining to this earth condecended to also submit to being born of Mary and experience all the trials and temptations that face each of us in mortality as the “law giver” and “exemplar” and perfect illustrator?

Some seem to be “hung up” regarding the fall and fail to understand that Christ,s atonement provided the ultimate solution to remedy the effects of the fall.

One also posted:
“The resurrection which we presently await is the one at which those "they that are Christ's" will be resurrected. "They that are Christ's" refers to Christians. The resurrected Christians will occur at the Second Coming of Jesus to the earth, or "at his coming."

Christians who are alive at the Second Coming will be born again as spirits and meet them in the air:

My response to the above: Is the first resurrection an ongoing process spanning a large expanse of time?

Also where do you find the basis that all Christians living at the time of Christ’s second coming will will be born again as spirits?

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

These born again spiritual bodied believers will then spend the thousand year Millennium with Christ:

...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4)

My response : Who will they reign over on earth during the 1000 year period?

After the Millennium, all dead nonbelievers are resurrected from their graves and face judgment:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5)

After the judgment of those resurrected in the second resurrection (all dead nonbelievers), whosoever was not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. Be aware that absolutely none of those resurrected at the second resurrection had their names written in the book of life when resurrected! Every single human, dead or alive, with their names written in the book of life (believers) were born again into everlasting spiritual life at the first resurrection!

So why are they checking the book again? Something obviously occurred since these nonbelievers were resurrected to cause the book of life to be modified. Otherwise, there would be no reason to check the book again for their names. What happened?

Nonbelievers resurrected to mortal life at the second resurrection will be preached the good news of the gospel and be allowed to accept or reject Jesus at that time:

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. (I Peter 4:5)

Their choice will be based on being preached the true gospel message for the first time. It will be preached at this time in the entire world, before the end of the age of man can occur:

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)

Those accepting Jesus will be born again as spirits into the Kingdom of God at that time.

My response: Who are the parents who will give birth to spirits?

Those choosing death will be cast into the lake of fire and instantly perish for all eternity -- never to live again.

The age and purpose of man will then be over as there will be no more mankind.

Those of mankind who chose everlasting life over everlasting death will replace the earthly angels who rebelled.

They will rule the earth under their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for ever.

My response: Can you name some of the so called “earthly angels”.

Kind regards,
RW

[The Tanager]

Remember the argument, though. Jesus believed and taught that Scripture (which, for him included Daniel) teaches truth. Daniel (and other texts) teach angels as existing. Therefore, Jesus believed and taught that angels exist.

That is not the focus right now, because our schism begins prior to the formation of material.

Our schism is the result of our different views towards these texts, so it should be the focus right now.

As far as the scriptures that existed at the time Jesus was experiencing his particular Human incarnation, I have already argued that this would be a case of working with what he had to work with, which were beliefs based upon Human ignorance and imagination.
Most of what Jesus knew as truth regarding the immaterial, would have been beyond his followers ability to believe, especially if it contradicted their own beliefs….

And I’ve critiqued your reasoning. Jesus was accused of blasphemy on different occasions, he escaped a few situations where it was about to get violent, he wasn’t just working with beliefs they already held, he could have easily taught, at the least, many more of the beliefs you claim he really held. He didn’t.

What I have asked you to provide is your own rational for believing that Angels and Demons existed prior to the formation of the material. Claiming "Jesus believed" moves the explanation away from a rational-based one and to a faith-based one. What I am after from you is why you think Angels and Demons existed prior to the formation of the material.

I gave my rationale. Yes, ultimately, it comes down to trusting a Person. Whatever label you want to put on it, trust in the omniscient One is more sound (if true) than unsupported premises that build on each other. You didn’t give a rational argument for any of your premises over possible alternative premises that could be true.