The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife

[William]

Lately some of us have been arguing from three differing positions is which the bible can be used to defend all three. All three appear to agree that each individual has a "Soul" although there may be disagreement on what the exact function of a "Soul" is.

[1] A "Person" is "Spirit" and temporarily exists as a human being until the body dies then that "Person" enters an afterlife and is judged by "God" and is condemned or saved. Those saved go to "heaven" and those condemned go to "Hell" - or in some variances on this, are "exterminated".

[2] A "Person" a "Human being" and when the human being dies, that is the end of that person unless "God" judges them as "saved" in which case that person is resurrected and given a new body which will last forever more.

[3] A "Person" is an eternal Spirit in human form and when the body dies, that Spirit immediately moves to the next phase and either knowingly or unknowingly creates for their self, their next experience, based upon a combination of mainly what they believe, what their overall attitude is and what they did in the previous phase.

Often any different position which opposes another might logically mean that they both cannot be correct, assuming one or the other is true.

Both [1]&[2] fall into this category as they cannot both be true. [1]&[2] also both agree that [3] is false.

However, [3] Can be true without making the other two false.

And [3] - just as with [1]&[2] can be backed by the bible, depending on what parts of the bible once uses to do so.

The bible is interpreted throughout, based upon which position [1][2] or [3] is being used to interpret it through [the filter].

If [1]&[2] oppose each other but can still be "proven" by using the bible, then this makes the bible something of a contradiction.

But if [3] - although different from [1]&[2] does not oppose either [1]&[2] and can still be "proven" by using the bible just like [1]&[2], then [3] takes away the contradictory aspect of the bible which [1]&[2] create by being in opposition.

Question: Would it be fair to say therefore, that [3] is the best position to assume on the overall biblical script to do with the subject of the next phase [afterlife]?

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #281]

Bullet points re my understanding of the immaterial in relation to the material.

♥ Humans were unaware that they were actually Eternal Spirits who agree to experience fully being Human, which meant they had to have no prior knowledge of being Eternal Spirits.
♥ In that state, Humans created all sorts of reasons for why they existed and what happens to them when they 'die'.
♥ Being actually Eternal Spirits, when the body died, they of course carried on existing.
♥ This lead to further interesting results because of the nature of the new reality experience allowed for Eternal Spirits to create through instantly manifesting a reality experience around them, whether they knew that was what was occurring or not.
♥ This feedback loop led to the formation of undesirable creations in sections of the Spirit World.
♥ Jesus' mission was to infiltrate the Human Experience [taking on Human form] but in his case, he would retain his memory of having a prior existence.
♥ Part of his mission was to inform Humans of particular undesirable sections which Eternal Spirits had created for themselves, after having experienced being Humans.
♥ Humans he was interacting with, generally believed that when they died, then that was the end of them - unless they were resurrected at some future time and given new glorified bodies.
♥ Jesus worked with that common belief, in order to seed more desirable Human-based creations into The Spirit World.
♥The rest - as the saying goes - is history...

Did He Ever Really Have a Human Experience - re "Biblical Jesus"

[The Tanager]

[Replying to William in post #282]

Thank you for laying out your bullet points. That didn’t answer the two points from my latest post, though.

(1) Why do you think the Creator’s creation being external means having an extra layer compared to your view?

(2) I’m not sure I made this point clear in my last post at all. What is the big deal about the material being in a state of transformation (and therefore not a completed creation), when the entities in your view are also in a state of transformation (and therefore not a completed creation)? Why does this support the view that we exist within the Mind of the Creator? Why does it explain omnipresence and omnipotence better?

[William]

[Replying to William in post #282]

Thank you for laying out your bullet points. That didn’t answer the two points from my latest post, though.

(1) Why do you think the Creator’s creation being external means having an extra layer compared to your view?

(2) I’m not sure I made this point clear in my last post at all. What is the big deal about the material being in a state of transformation (and therefore not a completed creation), when the entities in your view are also in a state of transformation (and therefore not a completed creation)? Why does this support the view that we exist within the Mind of the Creator? Why does it explain omnipresence and omnipotence better?

As you may recall, our [or a least my] focus was to identify where we branch off from the premise we share.

This appears to be at the immaterial layer, where you believe that Demons and Angels are integrated into the immaterial as opposing agency.

I understand that it is more likely these mythological creatures are the invention of Humans, so did not exist as actual beings [Eternal Spirits as I refer to these] in the immaterial layer.

Rather, they exist as creatures which are created by Human belief systems and as such are experienced in the next phase, as individuals create their next-experience.

I asked you my own questions and your answers failed to provide rational reasons for why you choose to believe that Angels and Demons existed long before the formation of the material.
I saw this as an unnecessary layer of imagery for you to place over/superimpose onto the immaterial, and you disagreed.

So having identified where we branch away from one another, I see no point in moving to argue/answer questions for our differences as for why we understand the material differently, as there is no way that we wouldn't, given we have already branched at the immaterial layer.

Tanager: Okay. Yes, I think you understand me. The missing section would include angels and demons.

William: I take it that this is because you believe in the Human mythology of pre-Human events to do with supposed activity which occurred with the Immaterial, before the formation of the Material?

I am not so inclined to place such imagined beings in the pre-universe section, as these might be the product of Human imaginative story-telling and completely incorrect regarding the actual nature of the Immaterial prior to the formation of the material.

Therefore I would place "Angels and Demons" the Next Phase section to be experienced as real, by those who believe in such.

But - rather than presume to know what you mean by "Angels and Demons", I will wait to see what more information you can provide on this.

There is no evidence that Eternal Spirits are actually as some beliefs generally imagine them to be. [Angels and Demons] That is why I asked you for specifics on what your beliefs are regarding these beings. I know already that you think of them as immaterial, and some are Angels or Demons, but nothing more than that.

I suspect that this is the extra layer which is not required, but until you give me some detail about your belief on these beings, I won't be able to know for sure.


Tanager: Angels are messengers and ministers of God to humans
Angels dwell in God’s presence (immaterially)
Angels are incorporeal beings (no physical bodies)
Angels aren’t bound by physical limitations
Angels serve God
Angels were created
Angels were created to glorify God and be in a loving community with God and the rest of Creation
Angels are powerful
Angels are intelligent beings
They seem able to assume human form
There are many that exist
There seems to be some sort of hierarchy of roles within them
Demons are evil angels that serve Satan, who rebelled against God
Demons try to destroy the loving community God is setting up


William: Given whatever your beliefs are about Angels and Demons, what support can you show me that such belief needs to be in place regarding this, that we should include that layer?

Tanager: I think one who believes in their existence is more reasonable because they are taught in the Bible, which I trust because of Jesus’ view of the Bible

William: While you no doubt have reason for this trust you place in these objects, your explanation doesn't really help clear up the necessity for the layer of Angels and Demons to be included prior to the existence of Human imaginations.

You have yet to explain the actual necessity of Enteral Spirits being sorted into two distinct and opposing camps. What was going on which makes that extra layer permissible, and therefore trustworthy?

Tanager: The necessity of being sorted is that that’s how things happened, if my beliefs are right. Just like that Caesar ruled Rome wasn’t logically necessary but just how it happened.

William: So far, my impression of that Mythical Cosmology is that we are dealing with a Creator who is in two minds about things. I do not think that this should be the assumption to be making.

Tanager: I don’t know what you mean about the Creator being in two minds about things.

I understand perfectly why you do not understand my comment. It is because we have already branched and we each 'see' The Creator differently. Not much, if anything, can be done about that. Certainly neither of us can deny that we each haven't tried.

I previously made an attempt to throw more light onto my position, when I wrote that I agree with you that Eternal Spirits are created by The Creator and that I see them as expressions of the creative thought-processes of The Creator - an extension of The Creators Self, as Eternal Spirts act as a conduit between what is already and what is to become.
Their role or purpose is to "deliver the goods" as it were - emissaries and co-Creators - the very means through which The Creator Creates.

There was no uprising involved in that process. This is a superimposed belief generated by Human imaginations which gives the impression [from the perspective I am speaking of] that in The Creator, there is an unstable mind at work. I see further evidence in the material creation which shows that there is no definitive support that an unstable mind is involved in its creation either.

[The Tanager]

As you may recall, our [or a least my] focus was to identify where we branch off from the premise we share.

This appears to be at the immaterial layer, where you believe that Demons and Angels are integrated into the immaterial as opposing agency.

I understand that it is more likely these mythological creatures are the invention of Humans, so did not exist as actual beings [Eternal Spirits as I refer to these] in the immaterial layer.

Rather, they exist as creatures which are created by Human belief systems and as such are experienced in the next phase, as individuals create their next-experience.

Okay. Do you feel this is the end of our conversation here, then, or is there more you are wanting to talk about?

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #285]

Okay. Do you feel this is the end of our conversation here, then, or is there more you are wanting to talk about?

As I see it, you have to explain what rational you have in your belief that Angels and Demons existed prior to the material Universe being created.

Your rational currently rests in that you believe the Bible teaches a creation of spiritual beings distinct from God and prior to humans. You believe the Biblical teaching to be correct because of the historicity of the Resurrection of Jesus, the reliability of the Biblical documents concerning Jesus’ teachings, and His teachings being that the Bible speaks truth.
You think one who believes in the existence of Angels and Demons prior to the Material Universe, is more reasonable because they are taught in the Bible, which you trust because of what you call "Jesus’ view of the Bible".

Are you able to provide information which supports these beliefs, perhaps in a similar way in which you provided lists of data re the resurrection? [LINK]

Or is everything you believe hinged around the resurrection being true?

Are you saying that because you believe in the resurrection being true, and because it is recorded in the Bible, that this means Angels and Demons existing prior to Human Imagination, must be also be true, "because it is in the Bible"?

To answer your question then, there is more on this that could be discussed, but if you only have your faith that the Bible is truthful re the claim that Angels and Demons existed prior to the Material Universe, I think we can agree together that our conversation here has completed its cycle.

[The Tanager]

As I see it, you have to explain what rational you have in your belief that Angels and Demons existed prior to the material Universe being created.

Your rational currently rests in that you believe the Bible teaches a creation of spiritual beings distinct from God and prior to humans. You believe the Biblical teaching to be correct because of the historicity of the Resurrection of Jesus, the reliability of the Biblical documents concerning Jesus’ teachings, and His teachings being that the Bible speaks truth.
You think one who believes in the existence of Angels and Demons prior to the Material Universe, is more reasonable because they are taught in the Bible, which you trust because of what you call "Jesus’ view of the Bible".

Are you able to provide information which supports these beliefs, perhaps in a similar way in which you provided lists of data re the resurrection?

Or is everything you believe hinged around the resurrection being true?

Are you saying that because you believe in the resurrection being true, and because it is recorded in the Bible, that this means Angels and Demons existing prior to Human Imagination, must be also be true, "because it is in the Bible"?

Depends on what you mean but I think you understand me correctly. My justification doesn’t ultimately rest on “the Bible says it, so it is true” but I do think the Bible gives us truth in all that it teaches. So, there are more ultimate reasons supporting the belief that the Biblical teachings are true. These being (-1) the reliability of the New Testament documents concerning Jesus and His teachings and (-2) the historicity of the Resurrection. Yes, I meant those to be negative numbers in the parenthesis because of how I think the flow of reason goes: historicity of Resurrection → reliability of NT for Jesus’ teachings → the conclusion that the Bible as a whole gives us truth in all that it teaches → the Bible teaches the existence of angels prior to human existence yet distinct from the Creator.

I was thinking you probably didn’t want to pursue all of that but I’m certainly happy to do so. I’ll put something together and post it in the next few days, hopefully.

[William]

Thanks for that Tanager.

For my part I will bullet-point my understanding of the process. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏
✸The premise remains "We exist within a Creation, therefore there must be a Creator"

♥The discussion re "Demons and Angels" is related to the Thread Subject.
✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏✏

Hopefully with investigating this schism closer, we might identify precisely where we branch away from one another.

[William]

The Process of Creation as I currently understand it.
________________________________________________
Based upon the premise that we exist within a creation - therefore there is a Creator

♥ The Creator thinks all subsequent things, into existence.

♥ The process follows a hierarchical order of delivery

♥ The Immaterial was first to form - become form - this formation was the result of The Creators Thoughts in action.
Eternal Spirits are these first formations of Creator-Thought

♥ These thoughts begat more thoughts and were each assigned different functions according to their understood structure and purpose.

♥ These - collectively - became the means in which to formulate scenarios, which in turn allowed for the creation of those scenarios.

♥ The creation of the scenarios are all played out within The Creators Mind-Scape.

♥ Nothing which can be known to exists, does so outside of The Creators Mind-Scape.

♥ All Landscape Creations can be experienced as physical [real] by Eternal Spirits.

♥ Eternal Spirits are not created by The Creator but rather, are individuate aspects - even in clusters - of the Creators own Consciousness.

♥ Eternal Spirits are types of co-creators as these are the medium through which The Creator Creates.

♥ Eternal Spirits within Human form have a particular purpose involving experiment. They are the result of a thought along the lines of "What happens when I merge aspects of my consciousness with the creation to such a degree, that the Creator part forgets it is the Creator part?"

♥ The answer is that the Creator part has as genuine experience as is possible, of being the created part.

♥ One of the results of this experiment was that the concept of "Good" and "Evil" [duality] emerged.

♥ All things associated with duality having nothing to do with The Creators/Eternal Spirits Reality [position] because the idea of Angels and Demons came about through Human imagination, at a much later part of that particular process.

♥ Patterns begat similar patterns, and in the case of this process, what Eternal Spirits [as Humans] think, also adds to the overall Creation of things which can be experienced by such Eternal Spirits.

♥ Therefore, landscapes specific to dualistic thinking are created by the Eternal Spirits who had a genuine Human experience and the formation of heavens and hells [as per the OP] are the result. Eternal Spirits experience their own creations in the next phase of this particular thought-experiment.


Q: Presuming the above is true, can we identify duality existing within the immaterial prior to the creations of this Material Universe? In other words, are we able to see why Demons and Angels should have existed prior to Human beings?

[Revelations won]

Is there perhaps a fourth more correct view of our after life?

Pure religion should be able to produce the answers to: Where we came from? , why are we here? And what is our ultimate potential destiny after this life?

I would submit that it is important for each of us to have a clear understanding relating to each of the above questions.

Do the scriptures also show that God intended for us to experience mortality?


Kind regards,
RW

[The Tanager]

This discussion assumes that two previous questions have already been answered in the affirmative: “does God exist?” and “was Jesus supernaturally resurrected?” If these are both true, then what Jesus did and taught has great significance. So, the question becomes whether we can know what Jesus did and taught. The earliest material we have making claims about what Jesus taught are the New Testament writings but do they reliably tell us what Jesus taught?

Again, the general methodology of my approach:

Is the claim knowable?

1.What does it mean to be knowable?

Few things can be known for certain. These include mathematical truths, definitions of terms, and probably a few other things. While certainty would be great in other areas, we just can’t have it. I think it is right to talk of truths that, while there is still room for doubting them, they are supported by evidence and reason to the point where they are beyond reasonable doubt or far exceed contrary claims. I think claim 1 is the most reasonable belief to hold concerning the question for reasons I will share later.


2. Is history able to reach this standard?

Yes, I think historical research can give us this standard. We should accept the hypothesis that gives us the most probable explanation of the evidence. What is most probable is revisable as new evidence or the re-considering of previous evidence occurs.


3. How do we decide what is historically reliable?

These are things like multiple, independent attestation, criterion of dissimilarity, criterion of embarrassment, proximity of source to events described, congruence with other facts, looking at the phrasing/language used, internal consistency, external supports such as from archaeology, among other things

From there I have made two claims to support: (A) The New Testament reliably records what Jesus taught. (B) Jesus taught the existence of angels and demons.


Claim A: The New Testament reliably records what Jesus taught.

1. The New Testament we have is what the original texts said.

We do not have the original copies but the copies we do have are extremely reliable. We have an amazing amount of manuscripts, about 25,000, of the New Testament (about 5500-6000 are Greek manuscripts). We also have over 35,000 quotations of the New Testament within the writings of the early Church Fathers. For comparison, Homer’s Iliad has about 650 copies that still survive. Plato’s work has 7 copies, Caesar’s Gallic Wars has 10, Livy’s History of Rome has 20, Tacitus’ Annals have 20.

Not only do we have a bunch of copies but they are very close to the dates of the originals. Fragments are within about 50 years, books within 100, most of the New Testament within 150, and the complete New Testament within 225 years. Homer’s Iliad has a gap of 400 years, Plato 1300, Caesar 900, Livy has a partial 400 years and a complete one about 1000 years, Tacitus’ earliest manuscript is 700 years distant.

This abundance and proximity makes it possible to reconstruct the original with almost certain accuracy. Most of the textual differences are grammar mistakes, misspellings, obvious intentional changes, and the like. About 1400 words out of 138,000 remain in doubt. That’s one percent in doubt, which are trivial words that don’t put any fundamental Christian teaching in doubt, as far as I’ve ever seen.


2. The Gospels are intended to be history.

Scholars generally agree that the genre is closest to ancient biographies (or “lives”). This is, certainly, not the same as a modern biography. For instance, strict chronology was not seen as being important. Yet, there is a concern in these writings to truthfully present details of the person’s life and, probably moreso, of their teachings.


3. These texts are primary sources.

Many of the authors claim to be eyewitnesses or to have written their accounts from firsthand accounts (Luke 1:1-3, Acts 2:22, John 19:35 2 Peter 1:16, 1 John 1:3, and others). Many of these texts and their source material were written within the lifetime of the eyewitnesses, the earliest Christians as well as opponents, so it would not be easy to invent works and deeds that they knew didn’t happen. The sources tell us specific details about society in general that speak to being in those environments.


4. The Gospel records are generally reliable.

Especially as far as the teachings of Jesus go, I think we should trust what the Gospels say he taught unless evidence shows that we cannot (such as via contradictions or other means). I think this should be the approach for multiple reasons. One, there just wasn’t enough time for legendary influences to overtake the historical facts. There isn’t enough time to erase people’s memories and replace them with totally different kinds of teachings. Two, these texts are biographies, not analogous to folk tales and urban legends which don’t concern actual historical individuals. Three, the Jewish ability to orally transmit sacred traditions was a highly developed skill that was very reliable. As children and into adulthood, Jewish people were taught to memorize multiple books of the Bible and these people would have carried over such predilections in passing down Jesus’ teachings. Four, the presence of eyewitnesses and the apostles would have put restraints on embellishments. Five, the gospel writers have an excellent track record of historical reliability. For instance, the author of Luke-Acts gives details about the sailings of the Alexandrian fleet, peculiar titles of local officials that have proven consistent, among other things (see Colin Hemer’s The Book of Acts in the Setting of Hellenistic History for a detailed study of these things). Six, for our discussion, we are already assuming that theism is true and that Jesus supernaturally rose from the dead. It would be expected that such a figure as a risen, divine Jesus would be able to (and would want to) keep his true teachings available for people to encounter.


5. Even if you don’t think they are generally reliable, specific facts can be established.

This is the approach used heavily in the quests for the historical Jesus, using criteria such as dissimilarity to Christian teaching, historical congruence, multiple, early attestation, linguistic semitisms, traces of Palestinian environment, embarassing material, coherence with other authentic material, etc.

There are too many specific details to talk about all of them and we are focusing on one anyway: what Jesus taught about angels and demons. Below I’ll be highlighting only the teachings given in the words of Jesus, not the narrative mentions of angels and demons.


Claim B: Jesus taught the existence of angels and demons.

1. What Jesus directly said about angels:

a. Angels will play a role in reaping/gathering people into respective places at the end [Matt 13:41-42; Matt 24:31, 36/Mark 13:27, 32]

b. Angels will accompany Jesus in his glory, when he comes to judge [Matt 16:27/Mark 8:38; Matt 25:31; Luke 9:26]

c. Angels have a role in the lives of children [Matt 18:10]

d. Angels do not marry [Matt 22:30/Mark 12:25/Luke 20:36]

e. Jesus could have asked God and received 12 legions of angels when Judas was betraying him, if he wanted [Matt 26:53]

f. Jesus will acknowledge believers and deny those who deny him before the angels of God [Luke 12:8]

g. Angels are joyous over repentant sinners [Luke 15:10]


2. What Jesus directly said about the devil:

a. The devil sows evil [Matt 13:38-39]

b. There is an eternal fire prepared for the devil [Matt 25:41]

c. Many Jews have the devil for their father, not God [John 8:39, 44]

d. Satan asked to sift Simon Peter “like wheat” [Luke 22:32]


3. What Jesus directly said about demons:

a. There is an eternal fire prepared for the demons [Matt 25:41]

b. People can cast out demons yet not be true disciples of Jesus [Matt 7:22]

c. Jesus instructed his disciples to cast out demons [Matt 10:8]

d. Jesus claims to have cast out demons [Mark 7:29, Luke 4:35, 13:32]

e. Jesus claims to cast out demons by the Spirit of God when accused of doing so by the power of the devil [Matt 12:28, Luke 11:18-20]

4. Jesus also taught the trustworthiness of scripture, the Old Testament [John 10:35, Matt 5:17-18], which teaches about angels in numerous places. I won’t share all of those verses because I think you’ve said you agree the Old Testament teaches about them but I can if I am wrong there.


It has been awhile since I engaged with the Jesus Seminar research (and others of that ilk), and this topic wasn’t on the top of my mind, but I don’t remember reading much discussion on Jesus’ view of angels. In my experience people that respect Jesus as a man but not a risen, divine Savior, usually think Jesus either did believe in them (and was wrong) or couldn’t have believed in them because of their own naturalistic bias against the existence of the supernatural rather than actual evidence to discount these specific sayings. I’ve been trying to find what the Westar Institute/Jesus Seminary folk decided on in their votes on the above specific verses but I’m striking out so far.