The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife

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The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife

Post #1

Post by William »

Lately some of us have been arguing from three differing positions is which the bible can be used to defend all three. All three appear to agree that each individual has a "Soul" although there may be disagreement on what the exact function of a "Soul" is.

[1] A "Person" is "Spirit" and temporarily exists as a human being until the body dies then that "Person" enters an afterlife and is judged by "God" and is condemned or saved. Those saved go to "heaven" and those condemned go to "Hell" - or in some variances on this, are "exterminated".

[2] A "Person" a "Human being" and when the human being dies, that is the end of that person unless "God" judges them as "saved" in which case that person is resurrected and given a new body which will last forever more.

[3] A "Person" is an eternal Spirit in human form and when the body dies, that Spirit immediately moves to the next phase and either knowingly or unknowingly creates for their self, their next experience, based upon a combination of mainly what they believe, what their overall attitude is and what they did in the previous phase.

Often any different position which opposes another might logically mean that they both cannot be correct, assuming one or the other is true.

Both [1]&[2] fall into this category as they cannot both be true. [1]&[2] also both agree that [3] is false.

However, [3] Can be true without making the other two false.

And [3] - just as with [1]&[2] can be backed by the bible, depending on what parts of the bible once uses to do so.

The bible is interpreted throughout, based upon which position [1][2] or [3] is being used to interpret it through [the filter].

If [1]&[2] oppose each other but can still be "proven" by using the bible, then this makes the bible something of a contradiction.

But if [3] - although different from [1]&[2] does not oppose either [1]&[2] and can still be "proven" by using the bible just like [1]&[2], then [3] takes away the contradictory aspect of the bible which [1]&[2] create by being in opposition.

Question: Would it be fair to say therefore, that [3] is the best position to assume on the overall biblical script to do with the subject of the next phase [afterlife]?

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Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife

Post #271

Post by The Tanager »

William wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 10:51 pmThere seems to be different Christian teaching about this, so can you be more specific [again - bullet points will do].

I believe the Bible teaches a creation of spiritual beings distinct from God and prior to humans. I believe the Biblical teaching to be correct because of the historicity of the Resurrection of Jesus, the reliability of the Biblical documents concerning Jesus’ teachings, and His teachings being that the Bible speaks truth.
William wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 10:51 pm
Why don't you place the individuate spiritual beings as a product of the human imagination?

Because my position is [3]. As such, Eternal Spirits in Human form come before whatever derives then, from Human imagination.

That’s not an explanation of why that is your position, it’s just stating that is your position. That would be like me saying above that I believe the Bible teaches there are angels and demons because I believe in position [2].

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Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife

Post #272

Post by William »

The Tanager wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:55 pm
William wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 10:51 pmThere seems to be different Christian teaching about this, so can you be more specific [again - bullet points will do].

I believe the Bible teaches a creation of spiritual beings distinct from God and prior to humans. I believe the Biblical teaching to be correct because of the historicity of the Resurrection of Jesus, the reliability of the Biblical documents concerning Jesus’ teachings, and His teachings being that the Bible speaks truth.
Did you copy and paste this answer from previous answers? It seems familiar.
But that is not the information I was asking you about. I was asking for specific things to do with Angels and Demons that you believe in.
William wrote: Sun Aug 08, 2021 10:51 pm
Why don't you place the individuate spiritual beings as a product of the human imagination?

Because my position is [3]. As such, Eternal Spirits in Human form come before whatever derives then, from Human imagination.
That’s not an explanation of why that is your position, it’s just stating that is your position. That would be like me saying above that I believe the Bible teaches there are angels and demons because I believe in position [2].
Then let me remind you of position [3].

[3] A "Person" is an eternal Spirit in human form and when the body dies, that Spirit immediately moves to the next phase and either knowingly or unknowingly creates for their self, their next experience, based upon a combination of mainly what they believe, what their overall attitude is and what they did in the previous phase.

Clearly enough, the position holds that what the individuate Eternal Spirit believes is what it will create for itself to experience in the Next Phase.

There is no evidence that Eternal Spirits are actually as some beliefs generally imagine them to be. [Angels and Demons] That is why I asked you for specifics on what your beliefs are regarding these beings. I know already that you think of them as immaterial, and some are Angels or Demons, but nothing more than that.

I suspect that this is the extra layer which is not required, but until you give me some detail about your belief on these beings, I won't be able to know for sure.

What I can do is provide my own understanding as to the purpose of Eternal Spirits and why it is not necessary to create a story about these being "Angels" and "Demons" in order to explain the creation of The Universe and why we are within it, if that might be of assistance to you in answering my question as to your beliefs about these distinct-from-each-other immaterial Spirits.

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Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife

Post #273

Post by The Tanager »

William wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:35 amThere is no evidence that Eternal Spirits are actually as some beliefs generally imagine them to be. [Angels and Demons] That is why I asked you for specifics on what your beliefs are regarding these beings. I know already that you think of them as immaterial, and some are Angels or Demons, but nothing more than that.

I suspect that this is the extra layer which is not required, but until you give me some detail about your belief on these beings, I won't be able to know for sure.

What I can do is provide my own understanding as to the purpose of Eternal Spirits and why it is not necessary to create a story about these being "Angels" and "Demons" in order to explain the creation of The Universe and why we are within it, if that might be of assistance to you in answering my question as to your beliefs about these distinct-from-each-other immaterial Spirits.

Yes, that would be helpful for me to know what kind of other information you are looking for. I will then follow your approach, addressing the various issues your answer addresses.

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Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife

Post #274

Post by William »

The Tanager wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:14 pm
William wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 12:35 amThere is no evidence that Eternal Spirits are actually as some beliefs generally imagine them to be. [Angels and Demons] That is why I asked you for specifics on what your beliefs are regarding these beings. I know already that you think of them as immaterial, and some are Angels or Demons, but nothing more than that.

I suspect that this is the extra layer which is not required, but until you give me some detail about your belief on these beings, I won't be able to know for sure.

What I can do is provide my own understanding as to the purpose of Eternal Spirits and why it is not necessary to create a story about these being "Angels" and "Demons" in order to explain the creation of The Universe and why we are within it, if that might be of assistance to you in answering my question as to your beliefs about these distinct-from-each-other immaterial Spirits.

Yes, that would be helpful for me to know what kind of other information you are looking for.


I thought I was clear enough on that. What are your beliefs regarding these creatures of Christian Mythology? Bullet points will do.

The idea of Angels and Demons prior to the Creation of the Material Universe is unnecessary because there is no logical reason for why such beings should be necessary in relation to the Material Creation, and thus it is more likely these are creations of Human imagination as a way of 'explaining' something which would support ones beliefs about our existing in this Universe.
This would signify an extra unnecessary layer is being placed upon the immaterial. Eternal Spirits are neither 'Angels' or 'Demons'.

Given whatever your beliefs are about Angels and Demons, what support can you show me that such belief needs to be in place regarding this, that we should include that layer?

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Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife

Post #275

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William wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:15 pmI thought I was clear enough on that. What are your beliefs regarding these creatures of Christian Mythology? Bullet points will do.

That’s still not clear. It’s a vague question that seems to be asking me to lay out all of my beliefs on every facet involved, when all it seemed you were doing before was laying out what we thought existed not explaining every detail about those things we think exist. You certainly haven’t laid out your beliefs regarding all four things on your diagram. But since that is what you are wanting, here are some beliefs:

Angels are messengers and ministers of God to humans
Angels dwell in God’s presence (immaterially)
Angels are incorporeal beings (no physical bodies)
Angels aren’t bound by physical limitations
Angels serve God
Angels were created
Angels were created to glorify God and be in a loving community with God and the rest of Creation
Angels are powerful
Angels are intelligent beings
They seem able to assume human form
There are many that exist
There seems to be some sort of hierarchy of roles within them
Demons are evil angels that serve Satan, who rebelled against God
Demons try to destroy the loving community God is setting up
William wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:15 pmThe idea of Angels and Demons prior to the Creation of the Material Universe is unnecessary because there is no logical reason for why such beings should be necessary in relation to the Material Creation, and thus it is more likely these are creations of Human imagination as a way of 'explaining' something which would support ones beliefs about our existing in this Universe.
This would signify an extra unnecessary layer is being placed upon the immaterial. Eternal Spirits are neither 'Angels' or 'Demons'.

I never claimed they were logically necessary for the creation of the material universe. They are not. This confusion is why I asked about the “connections” you saw between the “layers”. I simply shared that I believe they were created prior to the material universe and humans by God. I don’t think angels and demons exist in order to explain any problem.
William wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:15 pmGiven whatever your beliefs are about Angels and Demons, what support can you show me that such belief needs to be in place regarding this, that we should include that layer?

I think one who believes in their existence is more reasonable because they are taught in the Bible, which I trust because of Jesus’ view of the Bible, which I trust because of the reliability of the New Testament in recording Jesus’ teachings, which I trust because of the historicity of Jesus’ Resurrection.

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Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife

Post #276

Post by William »

The Tanager wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:29 pm
William wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:15 pmI thought I was clear enough on that. What are your beliefs regarding these creatures of Christian Mythology? Bullet points will do.

That’s still not clear. It’s a vague question that seems to be asking me to lay out all of my beliefs on every facet involved, when all it seemed you were doing before was laying out what we thought existed not explaining every detail about those things we think exist. You certainly haven’t laid out your beliefs regarding all four things on your diagram. But since that is what you are wanting, here are some beliefs:
Yet I did inform you that my intention is to clear the decks in order to perhaps discover where it is we are branching away from one another re Mythical Cosmology. I used other words, but am saying the same thing now, with these words.
I also explained to you how I did not want to go off on probable tangents by assuming you believe the generic stories of Christianity, which I am somewhat aware of, and would not normally need to ask. You have taught me that I cannot be too carful in this regard. It saves time in the long run which means we can get to The Chase...the meaty bits, as it were.

Angels are messengers and ministers of God to humans
"Possible unnecessary layer superimposed upon the question "Why Eternal Spirits Exist""

Angels dwell in God’s presence (immaterially)
Are they Eternal Spirits?
Angels are incorporeal beings (no physical bodies)
If so, it can be surmised that "being in The Creator's Presence" is the same as being in the Mind of The Creator.

They are the result of The Creators Pre-sense [forethought/premonition].
Angels aren’t bound by physical limitations
If so, it can be surmised that not being "bound by physical limitations" is the same as being in the Mind of The Creator.
Angels serve God
If so, it can be surmised that they behave like the thoughts of The Creator, which is the same as being in the Mind of The Creator
Angels were created
If so, it can be surmised that they behave like the thoughts of The Creator, in that thoughts are created, which is the same as being in the Mind of The Creator
Angels were created to glorify God and be in a loving community with God and the rest of Creation
"Possible unnecessary layer superimposed upon the question "Why Eternal Spirits Exist""
Angels are powerful
Angels are intelligent beings
They seem able to assume human form
There are many that exist
There seems to be some sort of hierarchy of roles within them
Demons are evil angels that serve Satan, who rebelled against God
Demons try to destroy the loving community God is setting up
"Possible unnecessary layer superimposed upon the question "Why Eternal Spirits Exist""

William wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:15 pmThe idea of Angels and Demons prior to the Creation of the Material Universe is unnecessary because there is no logical reason for why such beings should be necessary in relation to the Material Creation, and thus it is more likely these are creations of Human imagination as a way of 'explaining' something which would support ones beliefs about our existing in this Universe.
This would signify an extra unnecessary layer is being placed upon the immaterial. Eternal Spirits are neither 'Angels' or 'Demons'.
I never claimed they were logically necessary for the creation of the material universe. They are not. This confusion is why I asked about the “connections” you saw between the “layers”. I simply shared that I believe they were created prior to the material universe and humans by God. I don’t think angels and demons exist in order to explain any problem.
Okay. Thanks for clearing that up. Note that I didn't make assumptions.

Are you saying that you do not believe that Angels and Demons pre existing before Humans, have nothing to do with the problems Humans subsequently encountered?
If so, then I am confused by your position on this, as you wrote recently that you believed that Satan was in possession of the Serpent on that fateful day in The Garden.
Or, perhaps I am confusing you with some other Christian on this Message Board.

William wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:15 pmGiven whatever your beliefs are about Angels and Demons, what support can you show me that such belief needs to be in place regarding this, that we should include that layer?
I think one who believes in their existence is more reasonable because they are taught in the Bible, which I trust because of Jesus’ view of the Bible,
Are you referring to 'Historical Jesus" "Biblical Jesus" or "Real Jesus as he exits today"?

How do you explain the fact that the Bible didn't exist when Jesus was on the planet, playing at being Human?
which I trust because of the reliability of the New Testament in recording Jesus’ teachings, which I trust because of the historicity of Jesus’ Resurrection.
While you no doubt have reason for this trust you place in these objects, your explanation doesn't really help clear up the necessity for the layer of Angels and Demons to be included prior to the existence of Human imaginations.

What your trust in said objects shows me, is that this alone does not mean that Angels and Demons existed prior to said Human imaginations.
The objects you present to me as evidence are really only the very stories which superimpose a [currently] seemingly unnecessary layer over the characterization of Eternal Spirits.
You have yet to explain the actual necessity of Enteral Spirits being sorted into two distinct and opposing camps. What was going on which makes that extra layer permissible, and therefore trustworthy?

So far, my impression of that Mythical Cosmology is that we are dealing with a Creator who is in two minds about things. I do not think that this should be the assumption to be making.

Rather, it is better to use Occam's Razor here and cut that away from the reality of the situation before the material Universe was created.

I agree with you that Eternal Spirits are created by The Creator.

I see these as expressions of the creative thought-processes of The Creator - an extension of The Creators Self.

Eternal Spirts act as a conduit between what is already and what is to become.
Their role or purpose is to "deliver the goods" as it were - emissaries and co-creators - the vessels[means] in which [through which] The Creator Creates.

There was no uprising involved in that process. This is a superimposed belief generated by Human imaginations.

Human beings were not lead astray by any Eternal Spirits which existed as 'good' and 'evil' representations of The Creators creations.

Human Beings are Eternal Spirits who opted to experience things such as death, pain, birth and joy. This could not be achieved in a genuine manner if they possessed prior knowledge of being Eternal Spirits.

One effect of this process was that it created a type of feedback loop as Human made up stories to explain their existence, stories such as Angels and Demons existing prior to Humans. This gave Humans a something of a logical reason for why they were in such a place...[a planet all alone in a seemingly infinite universe] especially in relation to the death and pain parts of the experience.

Humans have reasoned that in order to explain the death and pain, it has to be because of some kind of punishment they are undergoing - a prison sentence of sorts, though not usually referred to as such, because we seem to have a will of our own which we use to create a lot of the pain and death ourselves, and freely do so, as there are no apparent outside forces apart from natural ones, which could give us that solid impression that this is what reality for us really is - "A prison sentence of some sort."

Add to that, is the idea imposed upon our individual growing self awareness, that we have a Creator who cursed his own Creation - stuff like that has its negative affect on the overall Human population and is most likely blow-back from more pagan times before religions made it acceptable.

As I say, take away that unnecessary layer and we have a purely innocent and acceptable reason for existing. We made the Universe the way it is for the purpose of experiencing it the way it really is from positions within it.

What, pray-tell, is ungodly about that?
The Devil's Trick?

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Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife

Post #277

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William wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:00 pmAre they Eternal Spirits?

No, I believe angels are created, not eternal.
William wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:00 pmIf so, it can be surmised that "being in The Creator's Presence" is the same as being in the Mind of The Creator.

They are the result of The Creators Pre-sense [forethought/premonition].

Why is that the same as being in the Mind of the Creator? Why isn’t God in the mind of the angels, if they are immaterial? Why aren’t all of them just in my immaterial mind?
William wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:00 pmIf so, it can be surmised that they behave like the thoughts of The Creator, which is the same as being in the Mind of The Creator

Why? It's logically possible that one serve another without only being in their mind.
William wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:00 pmAre you saying that you do not believe that Angels and Demons pre existing before Humans, have nothing to do with the problems Humans subsequently encountered?
If so, then I am confused by your position on this, as you wrote recently that you believed that Satan was in possession of the Serpent on that fateful day in The Garden.

I didn’t say Satan possessed the Serpent, but I do think the Serpent is (at least) representative of Satan. However, I also said that humans would have been tempted to sin with or without the Serpent in our interaction. To translate that to this context, I don’t think the demons were created or allowed simply to tempt humans or provide them with an alternate choice or only for humans at all.
William wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:00 pm
I think one who believes in their existence is more reasonable because they are taught in the Bible, which I trust because of Jesus’ view of the Bible,

Are you referring to 'Historical Jesus" "Biblical Jesus" or "Real Jesus as he exits today"?

All three, the three being the same thing.
William wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:00 pmHow do you explain the fact that the Bible didn't exist when Jesus was on the planet, playing at being Human?

Why don’t you think the Bible existed during Jesus' day? The Tanakh/Old Testament most certainly existed then.
William wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:00 pmWhile you no doubt have reason for this trust you place in these objects, your explanation doesn't really help clear up the necessity for the layer of Angels and Demons to be included prior to the existence of Human imaginations.

Why not? Aren’t the "layers" just about what we think actually exists, put in chronological order?
William wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:00 pmYou have yet to explain the actual necessity of Enteral Spirits being sorted into two distinct and opposing camps. What was going on which makes that extra layer permissible, and therefore trustworthy?

The necessity of being sorted is that that’s how things happened, if my beliefs are right. Just like that Caesar ruled Rome wasn’t logically necessary but just how it happened.
William wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:00 pmSo far, my impression of that Mythical Cosmology is that we are dealing with a Creator who is in two minds about things. I do not think that this should be the assumption to be making.

I don’t know what you mean about the Creator being in two minds about things.
William wrote: Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:00 pmAs I say, take away that unnecessary layer and we have a purely innocent and acceptable reason for existing. We made the Universe the way it is for the purpose of experiencing it the way it really is from positions within it.

I don’t get why you think Occam’s Razor favors your scenario, much less other evidence for your view against others. Why is being the Creator's thought simpler than being the Creator's external creation?

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Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife

Post #278

Post by William »

[Replying to The Tanager in post #278]

I won't do this with you anymore.

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Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife

Post #279

Post by William »

Why is being the Creator's thought simpler than being the Creator's external creation?
Because the extra layer is not shown by you to be necessary.

We can see by studying the Material, that it is not what we could call a completed creation. Its design appears to be based on the principle of being in a constant state of transformation - perhaps heading to a complete thing, but incomplete until such a time.

This corresponds far better in relation to thought processes [generally understood] and thus it adds evidence to the notion that we exist within The Mind of The Creator. Obviously it is an extraordinary mind, and no individuate mind is outside of that mind.

It explains why Omnipresence and Omnipotence are in operation. The Creator knows Its mind and is experiencing everything which is happening therein.

Therefore, there is no justification in making claims that the material universe is some type of "external creation" as this only adds an unnecessary layer which brings with it, its own complications, which in itself is wasting argument better focused upon the more reasonable notion, that both immaterial and material exist within the Mind of The Creator.

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Re: The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife

Post #280

Post by The Tanager »

William wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:01 pm
Why is being the Creator's thought simpler than being the Creator's external creation?

Because the extra layer is not shown by you to be necessary.

No, I’m asking why you think it is an extra layer. Here is an analogy. (Note: this is not an analogy where one is your view and one is my view, the analogy is focusing on the layers present in both views). Think of (1) me making a story about a robot and (2) me creating a robot out of physical material. In both of these we have two layers: (a) my thoughts) and (b) the robot character. You seem to be saying that (b) being immaterial rather than material means this second layer doesn’t exist but it does.
William wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:01 pmWe can see by studying the Material, that it is not what we could call a completed creation. Its design appears to be based on the principle of being in a constant state of transformation - perhaps heading to a complete thing, but incomplete until such a time.

This corresponds far better in relation to thought processes [generally understood] and thus it adds evidence to the notion that we exist within The Mind of The Creator. Obviously it is an extraordinary mind, and no individuate mind is outside of that mind.

It explains why Omnipresence and Omnipotence are in operation. The Creator knows Its mind and is experiencing everything which is happening therein.

Therefore, there is no justification in making claims that the material universe is some type of "external creation" as this only adds an unnecessary layer which brings with it, its own complications, which in itself is wasting argument better focused upon the more reasonable notion, that both immaterial and material exist within the Mind of The Creator.

We could say the same about immaterial objects. Our minds are in constant states of transformation as well.

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