Lilith

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Miles
Savant
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 434 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

Lilith

Post #1

Post by Miles »

Seemingly, Lilith only appears in a single verse in the Bible. Isaiah 34:14


Sometimes depicted as a female with a proper name.

Isaiah 34:14
And desert creatures shall meet with hyenas, and a goat-demon shall call to his neighbor; surely there Lilith shall repose, and she shall find a resting place for herself.(the Lexham English Bible)

Other times as a thing.

Isaiah 34:14
Wildcats shall meet with desert beasts, satyrs shall call to one another; There shall the lilith repose, and find for herself a place to rest.
(New American Bible (Revised Edition))

Perhaps a bird.

Isaiah 34:14
The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest. (King James Version)



So, what gives? What is it about Lilth that makes her important enough to mention and subsequently depict.


Image




. . . . And very often not important enough to mention at all?



Isaiah 34:14
Desert animals will live with the hyenas there. And wild goats will call to their friends. Night animals will live there. They will find a place of rest there.
(International Children’s Bible)

Isaiah 34:14
Wild animals and wild dogs will congregate there; wild goats will bleat to one another. Yes, nocturnal animals will rest there and make for themselves a nest.
( New English Translation)

Isaiah 34:14
Wild cats will live there with hyenas. Wild goats will call to their friends. Night animals will spend some time there and find a place to rest.
(Easy To Read version)

Isaiah 34:14
Desert animals will live with the hyenas, and wild goats will call to their friends. Night animals will live there and find a place of rest.
(Expanded Bible)

Isaiah 34:14
Desert animals will mingle there with hyenas, their howls filling the night. Wild goats will bleat at one another among the ruins, and night creatures will come there to rest.
(New Living Translation)




.

User avatar
Difflugia
Prodigy
Posts: 3043
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 3274 times
Been thanked: 2022 times

Re: Lilith

Post #11

Post by Difflugia »

PinSeeker wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:28 pm
Difflugia wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:49 pmAnd a goddess, apparently.
Nope.
You seem to be forgetting that this is TD&D, where the Bible text is authoritative. Isaiah 34:14 says that's where Lilith (לִּילִ֔ית) "settles herself and finds her resting place." Considering that Lilith is attested throughout the region in both Semitic (Hebrew, Aramaic) and non-Semitic (Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian) texts as first a goddess and later a demon, you're going to have to do a lot better than personal incredulity or theological discomfort.
Lilith is a hostile goddess associated with the night in Sumerian mythology. In later Jewish folklore, she is known as Adam's first wife who gives birth to demons.—The New Oxford Annotated Bible
The Heb term liIit as a demon in Isa 34: 14 is connected by popular etymology with the word layla 'night'. But it is certainly to be considered a loan from Akk lilitu, which is ultimately derived from Sum Iil.

The Mesopotamian evidence for this demon reaches back to the 3rd millennium BCE as we can see from the Sumerian epic 'Gilgamesh, Enkidu and the Netherworld'. Here we find Inanna (Ishtar) who plants a tree later hoping to cut from its wood a throne and a bed for herself. But as the tree grows, a snake makes it" nest at its roots, Anzu settled in the top and in the trunk the demon ki-sikil-li-la makes her lair. Gilgamesh has to slay the snake. Anzu and the demon flee so that he can cut down the tree and give the timber to lnanna.

From the term Iil we can see that these demons are related to stormy winds. In Akk. texts IiIu, liIitu and (w)ardat lili often occur together as three closely related demons whose dominion are the stormy winds. Thus lilu can also be seen as the southwest wind. lilitu can flee from a house through the window like the wind or people imagine that she is able to fly like a bird.—Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible
v. 14 reminds us that below the surface of belief in one God there lurked fears of demons. 'Lilith' seems to have been an aggressive female demon known also from Mesopotamian incantations; she was not a 'night hag' (so RSV, a rendering based on false etymology).—The Oxford Bible Commentary
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

User avatar
Difflugia
Prodigy
Posts: 3043
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:25 am
Location: Michigan
Has thanked: 3274 times
Been thanked: 2022 times

Re: Lilith

Post #12

Post by Difflugia »

Miles wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:15 pmBeside the Lexham English Bible I found:

Amplified Bible
Common English Bible
The Message
New Revised Standard Version
New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised
New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition
VOICE

All treat "Lilith" as a proper name. Oh yes, I overlooked the International Standard Version which treats "Lilith" as a plural:
I should have double-checked at least the NRSV. I thought I remembered that no Bibles following the KJV tradition (KJV, ASV, RSV, NASB, NRSV, ESV) treated Liltih as a proper name. I guess I was wrong.
Miles wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:15 pmOh yes, I overlooked the International Standard Version which treats "Lilith" as a plural:
"There also Liliths will settle, and find for themselves a resting place."......... Go figure.
That is weird, since the context is unambiguously feminine singular. The text literally reads, "Indeed, there will Lilith settle herself and find her resting place."

It also irks me when translations add a definite article. It's lacking in the Hebrew, so it should either be "a lilith" or "Lilith."
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21111
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 792 times
Been thanked: 1122 times
Contact:

Re: Lilith

Post #13

Post by JehovahsWitness »

LILITH (לילית): Hebrew form of Sumerian Lilitu, meaning "of the night." In mythology, this is the name of a Mesopotamian storm demon associated with the wind and thought to bear disease and death. In ancient Semitic folklore, it is the name of a night demon. The oldest story considers Lilith to be Adam's first wife. In the bible, this is simply a word for a "screech owl." [ * ]

source: https://finejudaica.com/pages/hebrew_names.htm
STRONG'S #
Image
[* ] Some suggest this may refer to “nightjar” (Caprimulgus tamaricis) found at the northern and southern ends of the Dead Sea (hence in regions like that of Edom) or the Egyptian nightjar (Caprimulgus æqyptius) that lives almost exclusively in the desert, occupying acacia groves and tamarisk bushes. For more interesting facts about nightjars see below [/i]
Image
source: https://i1.rgstatic.net/publication/297 ... review.png


BIRD OR MYTHOLOGICQL WOMAN?

The Hebrew Word (lilith ) appears only once in scripture from the root 'luwl' (#3883); properly, a twist (away of the light), i.e. night.
“There is, however, no real evidence for insisting on a mythological interpretation of the word, and it is perhaps significant that most of the other creatures listed in Is. xxxiv are real animals or birds.” - The New Bible Dictionary (1962) p. 740
“... there is no reason to expect such a loan-word in any passage of the Old Testament where no ancient Vs.[Version] attests it.” - Professor G. R. Driver , The Palestine Exploration Quarterly (1959) Vol. XCI, p. 55
The New World Translations renders the Hebrew (לילית) as "nightjar"
ISAIAH 34 : 11-15 - NEW WORLD TRANSLATION

The pelican and the porcupine will possess her, And long-eared owls and ravens will reside in her. ....13 Thorns will grow in her fortified towers,Nettles and thorny weeds in her fortresses. She will become a lair of jackals, An enclosure for ostriches.14 Desert creatures will meet up with howling animals, And the wild goat will call to its companion. Yes, there the nightjar* will settle and find a place of rest. 15 There the arrow snake will make its nest and lay eggs, And it will hatch them and gather them in its shadow. Yes, there the kites will gather, each one with her mate.
Compare various other translations
https://www.biblestudytools.com/isaiah/ ... h+34:11-15
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat May 01, 2021 4:46 am, edited 13 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21111
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 792 times
Been thanked: 1122 times
Contact:

Re: Lilith

Post #14

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Image
10 INTERESTING FACTS ABOUT NIGHTJARS (THE BIRDS WITH "WHISKERS")

  • Nightjars are a species of nocturnal or crepuscular birds which are found in most countries of the world except in the Arctic or Antarctic.
  • Recent studies indicate nightjars are related to hummingbirds
  • Like other nocturnal birds, nightjars have exceptionally large eyes containing a high concentration of light sensitive rods which assist them with hunting in low light conditions.
  • Some say the name nightjar comes from the jarring sound of their call, while others believe the name comes from the species’ wide “jar-like” mouths.
  • Nightjars are very agile in flight, able to hunt and catch aerial insects such as moths in those huge mouths.
  • Its large mouth is evidently the reason for its also being called the “goatsucker,” from an ancient legend holding that the bird sucked the milk of goats.
  • All nightjars have modified feathers in the form of sensitive bristles round their mouths, which assist them in scooping up insects and channelling them into their mouths when in flight.
  • They are all solitary birds, hunting most actively at dusk and dawn.
  • Most nightjars migrate seasonally to some degree, and there are even some intercontinental species, including the European Nightjar which migrates from Europe to South Africa.
  • Some believe the Hebrew word (li·lithʹ) is derive from a root word denoting “every kind of twisting motion or twisted object,” pointing to the nightjar's rapid twisting and turning in flight.

INTERESTING FACTS ABOUT ANIMALS MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE

Interesting fact about DOVES
viewtopic.php?p=985382#p985382

Ten interesting facts about nightjars
viewtopic.php?p=1038507#p1038507
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

ANIMALS , BIRDS and ...THE EARTHLY PARSDISE
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Sep 16, 2022 7:25 pm, edited 12 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Miles
Savant
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 434 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

Re: Lilith

Post #15

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 12:30 am
LILITH (לילית): Hebrew form of Sumerian Lilitu, meaning "of the night." In mythology, this is the name of a Mesopotamian storm demon associated with the wind and thought to bear disease and death. In ancient Semitic folklore, it is the name of a night demon. The oldest story considers Lilith to be Adam's first wife. In the bible, this is simply a word for a "screech owl."


From Strong's 3917 (my emphasis)

Image


.

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8494
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2147 times
Been thanked: 2295 times

Re: Lilith

Post #16

Post by Tcg »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 12:30 am In the bible, this is simply a word for a "screech owl."

Image
You are suggesting that the above photo is an example of this bird:

Image

What a fascinating claim.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21111
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 792 times
Been thanked: 1122 times
Contact:

Re: Lilith

Post #17

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Tcg wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:06 amWhat a fascinating claim.

Well spotted, apparently they are more closely RELATED to the humming bird. Duly CORRECTED.



JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat May 01, 2021 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Miles
Savant
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 434 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

Re: Lilith

Post #18

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 1:40 am
10 INTERESTING FACTS ABOUT NIGHTJARS

  • Nightjars are a species of nocturnal or crepuscular birds which are found in most countries of the world except in the Arctic or Antarctic.
  • The nightjar is considered to be related to the owl and to include the whippoorwill among its members.
  • Like other nocturnal birds, nightjars have exceptionally large eyes containing a high concentration of light sensitive rods which assist them with hunting in low light conditions.
  • Some say the name nightjar comes from the jarring sound of their call, while others believe the name comes from the species’ wide “jar-like” mouths.
  • Nightjars are very agile in flight, able to hunt and catch aerial insects such as moths in those huge mouths.
  • Its large mouth is evidently the reason for its also being called the “goatsucker,” from an ancient legend holding that the bird sucked the milk of goats.
  • All nightjars have modified feathers in the form of sensitive bristles, which assist them in scooping up insects and channelling them into their mouths when in flight.
  • They are all solitary birds, hunting most actively at dusk and dawn.
  • Most nightjars migrate seasonally to some degree, and there are even some intercontinental species, including the European Nightjar which migrates from Europe to South Africa.
  • Some believe the Hebrew word (li·lithʹ) is derive from a root word denoting “every kind of twisting motion or twisted object,” pointing to the nightjar's rapid twisting and turning in flight.
I fail to see why are you going on about nightjars here.

Just to put them in perspective:

First of all, "Screech owls are restricted to the Americas. For most of the 20th century, this genus was merged with the Old World [Eurasian] scops owls in Otus , but nowadays it is again considered separately based on a range of behavioral, biogeographical, morphological, and DNA sequence data."
Source: Wikipedia

The number of owls belonging to the genus Otus number around 45, and taxonomically belong to the order Strigiformes and family Strigidae.

Secondly, unfortunately, your link to https://i1.rgstatic.net/publication/297 ... review.png is inoperable so I'm at a loss as to why you posted anything at all about the Nubian Nightjar, which not only doesn't resemble owls in the least but belongs to a whole different family (Caprimulgidae) and even order (Caprimulgiformes), which tells us they're two extremely different birds

So, any "screech owl" mentioned in the Bible would almost certainly refer to a member of the Strigidae family, and never to those of Caprimulgidae.



.

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8494
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2147 times
Been thanked: 2295 times

Re: Lilith

Post #19

Post by Tcg »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 3:17 am
Tcg wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:06 amWhat a fascinating claim.
Well spotted, apparently they are more closely RELATED to the humming bird. Duly CORRECTED.

JW
The hummingbird, which is diurnal rather than nocturnal, is an example of a a nightjar?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21111
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 792 times
Been thanked: 1122 times
Contact:

Re: Lilith

Post #20

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Tcg wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 3:34 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 3:17 am
Tcg wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 2:06 amWhat a fascinating claim.
Well spotted, apparently they are more closely RELATED to the humming bird. Duly CORRECTED.

JW
The hummingbird, which is diurnal rather than nocturnal, is an example of a a nightjar?


Tcg

I know! Surprising isnt it! CLARIFICATION: Researchers are not saying that the hummingbird is an example of a NIGHTJAR only that they are RELATED (see POST 10 interesting facts about Nightjars)

Image
source: https://artsandsciences.fsu.edu/article ... amily-tree
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat May 01, 2021 4:58 am, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Post Reply