Lilith

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Miles
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Lilith

Post #1

Post by Miles »

Seemingly, Lilith only appears in a single verse in the Bible. Isaiah 34:14


Sometimes depicted as a female with a proper name.

Isaiah 34:14
And desert creatures shall meet with hyenas, and a goat-demon shall call to his neighbor; surely there Lilith shall repose, and she shall find a resting place for herself.(the Lexham English Bible)

Other times as a thing.

Isaiah 34:14
Wildcats shall meet with desert beasts, satyrs shall call to one another; There shall the lilith repose, and find for herself a place to rest.
(New American Bible (Revised Edition))

Perhaps a bird.

Isaiah 34:14
The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest. (King James Version)



So, what gives? What is it about Lilth that makes her important enough to mention and subsequently depict.


Image




. . . . And very often not important enough to mention at all?



Isaiah 34:14
Desert animals will live with the hyenas there. And wild goats will call to their friends. Night animals will live there. They will find a place of rest there.
(International Children’s Bible)

Isaiah 34:14
Wild animals and wild dogs will congregate there; wild goats will bleat to one another. Yes, nocturnal animals will rest there and make for themselves a nest.
( New English Translation)

Isaiah 34:14
Wild cats will live there with hyenas. Wild goats will call to their friends. Night animals will spend some time there and find a place to rest.
(Easy To Read version)

Isaiah 34:14
Desert animals will live with the hyenas, and wild goats will call to their friends. Night animals will live there and find a place of rest.
(Expanded Bible)

Isaiah 34:14
Desert animals will mingle there with hyenas, their howls filling the night. Wild goats will bleat at one another among the ruins, and night creatures will come there to rest.
(New Living Translation)




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Difflugia
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Re: Lilith

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Post by Difflugia »

Miles wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:54 amSo, what gives? What is it about Lilth that makes her important enough to mention and subsequently depict and very often not important enough to mention at all?
Because an Akkadian or Babylonian goddess being named in the Bible gives some people theological fits. It's not an accident that the only Bible you mentioned (and the only one I'm aware of) that treats "Lilith" as a name is the Lexham English Bible, a strictly academic, literal translation. Bibles intended for liturgical use try to offer some sort of obfuscated translation.

Rabbinic midrash combined Isaiah 34:14 with the two female companions of Adam. Genesis 1:27 mentions a woman created at the same time as the man, but Adam's named wife, Eve, wasn't created until later in 2:21-22. According to the rabbinic story, the first companion fled Adam's abusive behavior and was cursed by God to become a demon.
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Re: Lilith

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Post by PinSeeker »

Difflugia wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:03 am
Miles wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:54 amSo, what gives? What is it about Lilth that makes her important enough to mention and subsequently depict and very often not important enough to mention at all?
Because an Akkadian or Babylonian goddess being named in the Bible gives some people theological fits. It's not an accident that the only Bible you mentioned (and the only one I'm aware of) that treats "Lilith" as a name is the Lexham English Bible, a strictly academic, literal translation. Bibles intended for liturgical use try to offer some sort of obfuscated translation.

Rabbinic midrash combined Isaiah 34:14 with the two female companions of Adam. Genesis 1:27 mentions a woman created at the same time as the man, but Adam's named wife, Eve, wasn't created until later in 2:21-22. According to the rabbinic story, the first companion fled Adam's abusive behavior and was cursed by God to become a demon.
In Isaiah 34, the prophet is relaying to the people God's judgment against Edom, which is basically all nations not Israel. He speaks metaphorically about its desolation and that only "wild beasts" -- the unclean, unbelievers -- will dwell there. He's contrasting that in Isaiah 35, where he speaks of the redeemed, the ransomed of the Lord returning to Zion (when Jesus comes back), where everlasting joy will be upon their heads, and the unclean shall not be there (and no "lion" or "ravenous beast"):
  • "For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion. And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch. Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever." (Isaiah 34:8-10)
  • "And a highway shall be there, and it shall be called the Way of Holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it. It shall belong to those who walk on the way; even if they are fools, they shall not go astray. No lion shall be there, nor shall any ravenous beast come up on it; they shall not be found there, but the redeemed shall walk there. And the ransomed of the LORD shall return and come to Zion with singing; everlasting joy shall be upon their heads; they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:8-10)
Isaiah 34 and 35 together describe, again, metaphorically, what will happen at the end of the age -- at and after the return of Jesus, after the final Judgment, and then into eternity, the age to come. Revelation 20 is very much a parallel passage:
  • "I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated on it. From His presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
As for Genesis, there are not two stories of the creation of Adam or Eve. Genesis 1 presents an overview of the creation of the universe and the earth (including the creation of the human race) as a whole, while Genesis 2 is an up-close view of the creation of man (and woman).

My goodness.

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Re: Lilith

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Post by Difflugia »

PinSeeker wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:25 pmHe speaks metaphorically about its desolation and that only "wild beasts" -- the unclean, unbelievers -- will dwell there.
And a goddess, apparently.
PinSeeker wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:25 pmAs for Genesis, there are not two stories of the creation of Adam or Eve. Genesis 1 presents an overview of the creation of the universe and the earth (including the creation of the human race) as a whole, while Genesis 2 is an up-close view of the creation of man (and woman).
While I recognize that this is TD&D and we have to treat the Bible as authoritative (contradictions and all), that doesn't mean that we have to accept any particular method of harmonization. I consider the ancient rabbinic explanation to be fanciful, but I also find that it engages with the text much more honestly than modern Christian theology does.
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Re: Lilith

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Post by Miles »

Difflugia wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:03 am
Miles wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:54 amSo, what gives? What is it about Lilth that makes her important enough to mention and subsequently depict and very often not important enough to mention at all?
Because an Akkadian or Babylonian goddess being named in the Bible gives some people theological fits. It's not an accident that the only Bible you mentioned (and the only one I'm aware of) that treats "Lilith" as a name is the Lexham English Bible, a strictly academic, literal translation. Bibles intended for liturgical use try to offer some sort of obfuscated translation.
I only mentioned one Bible because one is all that's necessary. There are several Bibles that treat "Lilith" as a name.

Genesis 1:27 mentions a woman created at the same time as the man, but Adam's named wife, Eve, wasn't created until later in 2:21-22. According to the rabbinic story, the first companion fled Adam's abusive behavior and was cursed by God to become a demon.
This is like saying god didn't really create man after he created cattle (Genesis 1) because in Genesis 2 it says god created cattle after he created man.


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Re: Lilith

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Post by Difflugia »

Miles wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:53 pmI only mentioned one Bible because one is all that's necessary. There are several Bibles that treat "Lilith" as a name.
Which ones? I'm not challenging your premise, but I'm curious.
Miles wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:53 pm
Genesis 1:27 mentions a woman created at the same time as the man, but Adam's named wife, Eve, wasn't created until later in 2:21-22. According to the rabbinic story, the first companion fled Adam's abusive behavior and was cursed by God to become a demon.
This is like saying god didn't really create man after he created cattle (Genesis 1) because in Genesis 2 it says god created cattle after he created man.
Or that God created people (or cattle) twice, once before and once after. It's essentially the same apologetic harmonization as Jesus cleansing the Temple twice, visiting Peter's mother-in-law twice, or Peter denying Jesus six times.
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Re: Lilith

Post #7

Post by William »

Lilith appears to be someone Adam rejected because she had the attitude that he was not her boss. An independant woman which some mythology connects with the serpent...she is characterized as "a woman scorned" and focused upon the demise of Adam and Eves offspring through their own self destructiveness

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Re: Lilith

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Post by PinSeeker »

Difflugia wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:49 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:25 pm He speaks metaphorically about its desolation and that only "wild beasts" -- the unclean, unbelievers -- will dwell there.
And a goddess, apparently.
Nope.
Difflugia wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:49 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:25 pmAs for Genesis, there are not two stories of the creation of Adam or Eve. Genesis 1 presents an overview of the creation of the universe and the earth (including the creation of the human race) as a whole, while Genesis 2 is an up-close view of the creation of man (and woman).
While I recognize that this is TD&D and we have to treat the Bible as authoritative (contradictions and all), that doesn't mean that we have to accept any particular method of harmonization. I consider the ancient rabbinic explanation to be fanciful, but I also find that it engages with the text much more honestly than modern Christian theology does.
A good many people do. But no, Moses, inspired of course, but the Holy Spirit, purposely did both the macro view and the micro view in that order to show that God awesome far beyond what we can think or imagine and an intensely personal God at the same time, and this is a great theme throughout the Bible.

As for honesty, it is entirely possible to be -- concurrently -- honest and terribly wrong. :)

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Re: Lilith

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Post by 1213 »

Miles wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:53 pm ...
This is like saying god didn't really create man after he created cattle (Genesis 1) because in Genesis 2 it says god created cattle after he created man...
Actually Genesis 2 doesn’t say created, it says “Yahweh God formed every animal of the field” (Gen. 2:19). It is possible that animals were created already, but in the garden that God planted, He also formed those animals for Adam. Genesis 2 is really more planting and forming than creating.

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Re: Lilith

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Post by Miles »

Difflugia wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:12 pm
Miles wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:53 pmI only mentioned one Bible because one is all that's necessary. There are several Bibles that treat "Lilith" as a name.
Which ones? I'm not challenging your premise, but I'm curious.
Beside the Lexham English Bible I found:

Amplified Bible
Common English Bible
The Message
New Revised Standard Version
New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised
New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition
New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition
VOICE

All treat "Lilith" as a proper name. Oh yes, I overlooked the International Standard Version which treats "Lilith" as a plural:

"There also Liliths will settle, and find for themselves a resting place."......... Go figure.

Difflugia wrote:
Miles wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:53 pm
Genesis 1:27 mentions a woman created at the same time as the man, but Adam's named wife, Eve, wasn't created until later in 2:21-22. According to the rabbinic story, the first companion fled Adam's abusive behavior and was cursed by God to become a demon.
This is like saying god didn't really create man after he created cattle (Genesis 1) because in Genesis 2 it says god created cattle after he created man.
Or that God created people (or cattle) twice, once before and once after. It's essentially the same apologetic harmonization as Jesus cleansing the Temple twice, visiting Peter's mother-in-law twice, or Peter denying Jesus six times.
Considering the two Genesis accounts are saying vastly different things, I have to disagree.



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