John 3:16 "the world" or "world of Israel"?

[Roman Yuriel]

John 3:16. Probably the most popular scripture in the Bible.

With a first read of the verse having not read the stories prior? One would be made to believe that Christ was talking about All People when he said God so loved the World.

But when you read the stories prior (the old testament)? And read the whole chapter itself in it's context? It's hard to see how Christ was actually talking about the world as in all people.

It is my belief that Christ did not die for all people, ye rather. He died for the bloodline or aka the children of the house of Israel. I'm going to attempt to prove this.

Firstly. What is going on in the chapter? Let's paint a picture.

Christ is relaxing in his home for the time being, it's night time. A man by the name of Nicodemus comes to him by night against orders from his clique (scribes saducees and pharisees) who were not feeling what Christ was doing at the time to say the least. But curious? Nick wanted to see for him self what is the deal.

Nicodemus is a Jew. From the kingdom of Judah. (Which consisted of only Judah, Benjamin and Levi tribes of the nation of Israel. )

Truth: The term Jew only represented 3 tribes of the 12 tribes of Israel. It only represented a section of the Israelites. It is a nickname for JUDAH
(JEW-DAH) which is the tribe Christ descendant from in the flesh.

There's a huge misunderstanding that Jew is just another name for an Israelite. All tribes are jews. That couldn't be further from the truth.

The other section of Israelites (northern kingdom) which consisted of 9 tribes (or 10) but technically 9. If people know their bibles and they should if they're trying to debate doctrine of Christianity. Or prove their doctrine. One would know the history in Israel of a great split that divided the family of Israel into 2 nations and 2 kingdoms.

Northern and southern kingdom of Israel. Judah and Ephraim or Judah and Israel.. were their aliases at this time.

This info is found in the book of Hosea 1 which apostle Paul references in ROMANS 9 towards the end.

In a nutshell. You can read the chapter yourself. God would cut of the kingdom of Israel due to too much idolatry and forsaking his covenant he made with them. Resulting in him setting his face against them and being their enemy. He would cut Israel off (northern kingdom) and declare them no more his people.

Only a portion.... See some ignorantly believe God cut off all Israel and forsook all israel. No. He forsook a SECTION (granted a greater section) majority of the nation. But in Hosea 1 he cut off only the kingdom of Israel (Ephraim)) he did NOT cut off the kingdom of Judah. He declared he would remain with Judah and SAVE Judah but not by war. (Obviously referring to Christ) as God said I will raise up the tents of Judah FIRST.

This is why Christ only dealt with Jews while he was alive. And commanded to not go into the way of the gentiles. (Even Israelite gentiles)

Yes. Israelite gentiles. Come the time of Christ they had been cut off and had no God for centuries. While God only remained with Judah (The Jews)
The rest of Israel fell away and lost their name and heritage and had to go by the names of all the other nations where they dwelled or were born.

When God said "ye are not my people and I am not your God" those israelites at that day became SPIRUTUALLY Gentiles. Though Israel in the flesh? They were not in the covenant anymore.

Que Christ....

In Hosea 1 God had a plan after cutting off Israel he said that in the end after Judah was saved. The rest that was called not my people (gentiled Israelites) would then be called the sons of the living God. (Meaning God would allow them to be grafted back in in the new covenant once they accepted Christ)

Ok. So now Nicodemus and Christ. John 3:16.

These are 2 Jews who are a conversing and remeniscing about past events that happened to THEIR ancestors. Prior to John 3:16 Christ references a situation between God, Moses and Israel in the desert after the Great Exodus from Egypt. You can read the story in the book of numbers. Of them complaining and God sending poisonous snakes to attack them until they repented. In which God told Moses to make a brass serpent that whoso ever looked at it would be healed of their poison and sickness.

The ONLY people in the wilderness were ISRAELITES. So that "whoso ever" clearly was referencing the group of the Israelites "whoso ever" of Israel.

Christ told Nicodemus though that he would be raised up the same way for the people. Why?

Because God so loved the "world" that he gave his only son to die for THEIR sins. That "whoso ever" of that world would not die but receive eternal life.


Hmmmm. Ok it's time to play detective now. Let's break down the words in the verse carefully.

Starting with "For God so LOVED".

IN ALL the Bible the ONLY people God declared his "love" for was the house of Israel, they who he lead of Egypt to establish their own kingdom.

If God loved "all people" why did he have Israel ransack many nations in route to power and dominance? Why would God say anyone who messs with Israel he will destroy? That sounds exactly like favoritism. He destroyed Egypt nation for israels sake. For example.

Now let's examine what his "love" is. His love is his OATH is his PROMISE.

Dueteronomy 7:6-8 declares the nation of Israel is beloved by God above all people on the face of the earth. He said however he did not set his LOVE on Israel because of their number or size . For they were the minority. But because he swore an OATH to the father's of the Israelites. That he brought Israel out of Egypt.

God's love is his Oath (promise) and his choice. He chose Israel for his reasons and promised them an eternal promise.

Israel were the only nation God declared he loved. He did not love (choose and promise ) all people. Only the bloodline of Israel.

Amos 3. God Declares that Israel is the ONLY FAMILY that he KNOWS (deals with) therefore ISRAEL will be punished for THEIR sins.

AMOS 3:1-2

"Hear this word that the LORD has spoken against you, O children (descendants) of ISRAEL against the whole family (bloodline) which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You ONLY have I known (chosen) of all the families (bloodlines) of the earth: therefore I will punish you (Israelites) for all your iniquities (sins)."

God would punish Israel but his plan was to redeem Israel in the end.

"For God so "loved"(chose and promised) the "world" (the nation of Israel) that whoever (of the family) might not perrish but have eternal life.

Biblical proof that John 3:16 is about Israel. Christ was referencing this chapter from the old testament in the book of Isaiah.

ISAIAH 45:15-17

"Verily thou art a God that hides thyself, O God of ISRAEL, the Saviour. They shall be ashamed, and also confounded (confused), all of them: They shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.

But ISRAEL shall be SAVED in the LORD with an EVERLASTING SALVATION (everlasting life): Ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded WORLD without end."

See here God refers to the nation of Israel as a WORLD. A world without an end. He shall bring an everlasting salvation to. God was referred to as the GOD OF ISRAEL (not all people)....

So CLEARLY now in context? We get a better understanding of what Christ was saying. He was referring to the "world" of the house of Israel.

And one cannot spiritualize Israel neither based off Romans 9. Because Paul states it's ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. Not the "spirit"

ROMANS 9:1-6

"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my KINSMEN according to the FLESH (bloodline): Who are ISRAELITES; To whom pertains (belongs to) the adoption (the grafting in/gentiled Israelites/Ezekiel 37), "and the glory, (the kingdom of God) and the covenants (old & new), and the giving of the law (commandment enforcers), and the service of God (blessings & protection), and the promises (eternal kingdom); whose are the fathers (ancestors), and of whom as concerning the FLESH (bloodline) Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

See a regular gentile cannot become spiritually an Israelite. But Israelites at one point spiritually became "gentiles". And those israelites and even any Jew who does not accept CHRIST and the new covenant? Are NOT considered israelites to God. But they have to be an Israelite in the flesh first to even have that opportunity. Because the opportunity always was for the israelites in the first place.

So in conclusion? I know this will be heavily debated or attempted to be heavily debated. And I'm sure someone will bring up "go ye and teach all nations" which was referring to fishing out those gentiled Israelites from among all nations as they dwelled among all nations barring the names of all nations. As a result of being discontinued from the heritage of Israel and the old covenant.

But truth is Christ only died for the house of Israel.

MATTHEW 15:24-26

"But he answered and said, I am not sent (by God) but (ONLY) unto the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL.

Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not good to take the children's (Israel's) bread, and to cast it to dogs (gentiles)."

And yes he wound up blessing that woman of Canaan anyways because she actually was an Israelite from the northern kingdom. She bore the name of Canaan because her section of the israelite family were the ones cut off from the old covenant. But she had faith though and knew of the coming of the messiah and prophecy and Christ blessed her because of her faith. Even though his mission at the time was to only establish the Jews at that moment.

It wasn't until after he passed and went on that he would send the Jews to go and find the rest of Israel and bring them to the father with the new covenant.

The Samaritan woman was an Israelite from the northern kingdom..Her tribe Ephraim they inhabited the capital of northern Israel which was the city of Samaria that Jacob inherited in the pass. The Samaritan's we're Israelites.

The parable of good samaritan story was Jesus trying to tell the Jews that eventually this beef between you guys and northern kingdom will end and you will be united again as one nation. And he showed to not have hatred for them because one of them can help you in a bad jam and one of your own (the Jews) can forsake you..at the end of the day you're all one nation. At that time Judah and israel fought against each other and the Jews regarded the northern kingdom as GENTILES because God was not dealing with them at that time. But God's end mission with Christ was to unite the whole 12 tribes back together under Christ..

In conclusion this scripture below sums up the whole meaning of the new testament and the mission of Jesus Christ.

MATTHEW 1:21

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save HIS people (Israel) from THEIR sins."

EZEKIEL 37:15-23

"The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Moreover, thou son of man, take one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions:

(Judah and children of Israel here is referring to the tribe of Judah, and Benjamin and Levi) together they were known as the Jews of the southern kingdom of Israel.)

"Then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: (see now that's referring to the NORTHERN Kingdom of Israel which consisted of 9 tribes (or sometimes referred to as "10 tribes")

"and join them one to another into one stick; (Judah and Ephraim) and they shall become one in thine hand. (One nation)"

"And when the children (descendants) of your people (Israelites) shall speak unto you, saying, Will you show us what you meant by these?

Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand." (Ephraim 9 tribes joined with Judah 3 tribes makes the 12 tribes of Israel one nation)

"And the sticks whereon you write shall be in your hand before their eyes. And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen (gentiles), wherever they be gone, and will gather them (Israelites) on every side (of earth) and bring them into their own land:"

"And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king (JESUS) shall be king to them all: And they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:" (Judah and Israel or Judah and Ephraim)

"Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions (sins): but I will SAVE them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God."


HOSEA 1:10-11

"Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, "Ye are not my people", (GENTILES) There it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. (ISRAELITES)

Then shall the children of Judah (Jews) and the children of Israel (northern kingdom) be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, (Christ) and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

ROMANS 9:24-27, 30-33

"Even us, whom he has called, not of the Jews (Judah) only, but also of the Gentiles? (ISRAEL)

As he saith also in Osee, (HOSEA) I will call them my people, which were not my people; (Northern Kingdom) And her beloved, which was not beloved.

And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people? (gentiles); There shall they be called the children of the living God. (Israelites)

"Esaias (Isaiah) also cried concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel (northern kingdom) be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be SAVED:"

30-33
"What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, (northern kingdom) which followed not after righteousness, (committed idolatry) Have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith?. (the new covenant)

But Israel, (Judah/the Jews) which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; as it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: And whosoever (of Israel) believes on him shall not be ashamed." (Isaiah 45:17)

[Roman Yuriel]

I think the problem, here, Roman, is either a misunderstanding or just a communication difficulty with who actually makes up God's Israel. If you mean to say that those who are truly of the House of Israel include people of all nations, Jews and Gentiles, then... that's right.

Regarding John 3:16 specifically:

it is indeed the world in the sense that Christ's atonement was sufficient to achieve the salvation of all

it is also the world of Israel -- although that seems kind of a clumsy way to put it -- in the sense that Christ's atonement was only effectual for (and thus for) those whom God chose before the foundation of the world, His elect, those given to Christ by the Father. So yes, I agree that Christ did not die for all people.

When people say "Israelites," they are generally referring to Old Testament believers, or "Old Israel." That group of people was made up almost entirely of ethnic Jews. Since the advent of Christ, though, we are referred to as His Church and are called New Israel. But we are not a different people. Together, we all make up one people -- one Nation -- which has nothing to do with bloodlines. It has everything to do with whether one is elect of God or not. Those who are of the House of Israel -- God's Israel, true Jews as Paul talks about them at the end of Romans 2 -- include people of every tongue, tribe, and nation. Eventually, they (we) will number as the stars of heaven and the grains of sand on the seashore, just as God promised Abraham long ago.

Grace and peace to you.

With all due respect you're wrong. And what you said makes no sense. God's Israel has always been the bloodline. And the kingdom of God and new Jerusalem on every gate is the name of the TRIBES OF ISRAEL. Not all nations. 12 gates for 12 tribes. Which one will you be going through? Judahs? Gate? Manasseh's? Gate? Ephraim's gate? Benjamin's gate? Ect. I'd like to see you try.

Oh excuse me? You're not from the tribe of Gad? What are u doing here? Ummm uhhh well I thought? Yeah well you thought wrong. And if all nations are Israel now? What nation will you have as your servants in the kingdom?

Isaiah 14:1-2

"For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors."

So now , is Israel your own land? Whose captives were you? You mean to tell me all people for in this? No way. For your doctrine to hold up? You'd have to be saying the nations are non believers and their fate is to be servants to the believers in God's kingdom? Give me a break man, it says the HOUSE (bloodline) of ISRAEL will POSSESS the nations for servants and handmaid's in the land of Israel. The nation God says is ABOVE ALL PEOPLE in the earth.

this is all about the bloodline of Israel period. And yes God called the Israelites a WORLD without an end.

Isaiah 45:17

"But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end."

Israel.....World (nation) without an end. And this is the old testament before Christ so it's obviously talking about the bloodline. God doesn't play around with his words. He promised Israel the bloodline something forever. The gentiles are trying to weasel in and take it from them with lying doctrines. The gentiles place is servitude in God's kingdom IF they even survive Armageddon. But God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy and compassion on whom he will have compassion. Many gentiles will be in the kingdom of God (GOVERNED BY THR REDEEMED ISRAELITES and Christ) not all nations. The nations will serve that government and obey God's laws or suffer judgments. Which takes away the all people can be saved doctrine.


Isaiah 60:12, 14

"For the nation (gentile) and kingdom that will not serve thee (Israel) shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel."

How can all people be saved if God says the descendants of those who afflicted you will come bending and bowing to you at the soles of your feet? What happened to forgiveness and not suffering the sins of the father's? Exactly... It don't apply to the gentiles real gentiles. Salvation is for the nation of Israel period.

You're also wrong about the Jews. Again the Jews only made up 3 tribes of Israel. For some reason you guys just can't comprehend that as you think Jew represents all 12 tribes you couldn't be further from the truth on that and that's why you guys just can't understand the truth of the scriptures.

"Ethnic Jew" was 3 tribes. Judah Benjamin and Levi THATS IT. you still have 9 other tribes of Israel who were lost and cut off from the old covenant. Ethnic israelites. Who were NEVER regarded as Jews or anything other then "gentiles" after God cut them off.

But the plan was to bring them back through Christ and the Jews. And that they did. Before 70 ad.

In conclusion there is no such thing as a spiritual Israelite as in a real gentile taking on the spirit of Israel. Funny. All nations in the earth folks want to cleave to the Israelites nation. Lol I don't see no one saying I'm SPIRUTUALLY a ROMAN now (my name has nothing to do with the kingdom of Rome) it's originally a Hebrew word which means Strong and powerful).

But I don't see any saying I'm spiritually an EGYPTIAN now. Or a Babylonian. Why is that? Why is it every one wants to be an Israelite? But yet Israel isnt important? Lol you're gonna become an Israelite and just move the bloodline Israelites out the way? And think you're on the sane level with an Israelite in the flesh who is in Christ and trying to keep the commandments? You think God is going to set you up over him? No way. It makes no sense.

Again it's about the bloodline of Israel. And no you cannot become one of you are not one already.

So there is no such thing as spiritual Israel. But however there IS such thing as a Spiritually GENTILED Israelite in the flesh. Due to the fact God cut them off from the old covenant before Christ came. Those israelites were considered gentiles. Until they accepted Christ. Then they were GODS ISRAEL. but you have to be an Israelite in the flesh to even have that opportunity. A regular gentile that was NEVER apart of the covenant to begin with? Has nothing to do with this.

[1213]

...I explained to someone else on here those "all nations" was referring to ISRAELITE gentiles. Not actual gentiles. ...

There is nothing in the scriptures that would indicate Jesus didn’t mean what he said.

But, it is also interesting thing, what means true Jew. Bible says:

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:28-29

Those who receive Jesus and are born-again, as Jesus taught, can be called Jews, in Biblical point of view.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree; don't boast over the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in." True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don't be conceited, but fear;
Romans 11:17-20

[PinSeeker]

I think the problem, here, Roman, is either a misunderstanding or just a communication difficulty with who actually makes up God's Israel. If you mean to say that those who are truly of the House of Israel include people of all nations, Jews and Gentiles, then... that's right.

Regarding John 3:16 specifically:

it is indeed the world in the sense that Christ's atonement was sufficient to achieve the salvation of all

it is also the world of Israel -- although that seems kind of a clumsy way to put it -- in the sense that Christ's atonement was only effectual for (and thus for) those whom God chose before the foundation of the world, His elect, those given to Christ by the Father. So yes, I agree that Christ did not die for all people.

When people say "Israelites," they are generally referring to Old Testament believers, or "Old Israel." That group of people was made up almost entirely of ethnic Jews. Since the advent of Christ, though, we are referred to as His Church and are called New Israel. But we are not a different people. Together, we all make up one people -- one Nation -- which has nothing to do with bloodlines. It has everything to do with whether one is elect of God or not. Those who are of the House of Israel -- God's Israel, true Jews as Paul talks about them at the end of Romans 2 -- include people of every tongue, tribe, and nation. Eventually, they (we) will number as the stars of heaven and the grains of sand on the seashore, just as God promised Abraham long ago.

Grace and peace to you.

With all due respect you're wrong. And what you said makes no sense.

Okay, well, with all due respect, you're welcome to your opinion.

God's Israel has always been the bloodline.

Nope. If that were true, no Gentiles -- anyone other than ethnic Jews -- could or would be saved, which is antithetical to the Old Testament (there were foreigners included in Israel) and (of course) the New Testament as well, because that's what the New Testament is all about -- the opening of the Gospel to the Gentiles. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile now.

And the kingdom of God and new Jerusalem on every gate is the name of the TRIBES OF ISRAEL.

Right, which will include people that no man can number of every tongue, tribe, and nation.

Yeah well you thought wrong.

LOL! Well now that doesn't sound very respectful... Again, you're welcome to your opinion.

Again it's about the bloodline of Israel. And no you cannot become one of you are not one already.

Nope. We Gentiles are grafted in to Israel. It was never about bloodlines. It's about those whom the Lord calls. It always was, and always will be.

So there is no such thing as spiritual Israel.

Well, yes there is, and it's the only Israel that really matters; it's God's Israel, which includes people, as I said, from every tongue, tribe, and nation -- those whom God calls out of darkness into His marvelous light, as Peter says.

But however there IS such thing as a Spiritually GENTILED Israelite in the flesh.

Now THIS makes absolutely no sense. A "spiritually gentiled Israelite"... Perhaps you mean to say that some (many) ethnic Jews are not included in God's Israel. If that's what you mean, then I agree with you, because, as Paul says in Romans 9, "...not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."

Due to the fact God cut them off from the old covenant before Christ came. Those israelites were considered gentiles.

No Israelites were never "considered Gentiles." They were may not have been heart-regenerate and thus remained unsaved, and thus not part of God's Israel, but they were never "considered Gentiles."

Until they accepted Christ. Then they were GODS ISRAEL.

This I agree with. Yes, God brought them into His true Israel when He called them. Sure.

... but you have to be an Israelite in the flesh to even have that opportunity.

Absolutely not. Again, Gentiles who have been called are part of God's true Israel. They have been grafted in to the true vine, Christ Himself.

Grace and peace to you.

[2timothy316]

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:28-29

Might I add to this Acts 10:34, 35
“God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.”

[Roman Yuriel]

I think the problem, here, Roman, is either a misunderstanding or just a communication difficulty with who actually makes up God's Israel. If you mean to say that those who are truly of the House of Israel include people of all nations, Jews and Gentiles, then... that's right.

Regarding John 3:16 specifically:

it is indeed the world in the sense that Christ's atonement was sufficient to achieve the salvation of all

it is also the world of Israel -- although that seems kind of a clumsy way to put it -- in the sense that Christ's atonement was only effectual for (and thus for) those whom God chose before the foundation of the world, His elect, those given to Christ by the Father. So yes, I agree that Christ did not die for all people.

When people say "Israelites," they are generally referring to Old Testament believers, or "Old Israel." That group of people was made up almost entirely of ethnic Jews. Since the advent of Christ, though, we are referred to as His Church and are called New Israel. But we are not a different people. Together, we all make up one people -- one Nation -- which has nothing to do with bloodlines. It has everything to do with whether one is elect of God or not. Those who are of the House of Israel -- God's Israel, true Jews as Paul talks about them at the end of Romans 2 -- include people of every tongue, tribe, and nation. Eventually, they (we) will number as the stars of heaven and the grains of sand on the seashore, just as God promised Abraham long ago.

Grace and peace to you.

With all due respect you're wrong. And what you said makes no sense.

Okay, well, with all due respect, you're welcome to your opinion.

God's Israel has always been the bloodline.

Nope. If that were true, no Gentiles -- anyone other than ethnic Jews -- could or would be saved, which is antithetical to the Old Testament (there were foreigners included in Israel) and (of course) the New Testament as well, because that's what the New Testament is all about -- the opening of the Gospel to the Gentiles. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile now.

And the kingdom of God and new Jerusalem on every gate is the name of the TRIBES OF ISRAEL.

Right, which will include people that no man can number of every tongue, tribe, and nation.

Yeah well you thought wrong.

LOL! Well now that doesn't sound very respectful... Again, you're welcome to your opinion.

Again it's about the bloodline of Israel. And no you cannot become one of you are not one already.

Nope. We Gentiles are grafted in to Israel. It was never about bloodlines. It's about those whom the Lord calls. It always was, and always will be.

So there is no such thing as spiritual Israel.

Well, yes there is, and it's the only Israel that really matters; it's God's Israel, which includes people, as I said, from every tongue, tribe, and nation -- those whom God calls out of darkness into His marvelous light, as Peter says.

But however there IS such thing as a Spiritually GENTILED Israelite in the flesh.

Now THIS makes absolutely no sense. A "spiritually gentiled Israelite"... Perhaps you mean to say that some (many) ethnic Jews are not included in God's Israel. If that's what you mean, then I agree with you, because, as Paul says in Romans 9, "...not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."

Due to the fact God cut them off from the old covenant before Christ came. Those israelites were considered gentiles.

No Israelites were never "considered Gentiles." They were may not have been heart-regenerate and thus remained unsaved, and thus not part of God's Israel, but they were never "considered Gentiles."

Until they accepted Christ. Then they were GODS ISRAEL.

This I agree with. Yes, God brought them into His true Israel when He called them. Sure.

... but you have to be an Israelite in the flesh to even have that opportunity.

Absolutely not. Again, Gentiles who have been called are part of God's true Israel. They have been grafted in to the true vine, Christ Himself.

Grace and peace to you.

The children of the promise are the descendants of Jacob man. The children of the flesh is referring to the descendants of Ishmael and Esau....smh. Jacob got the promise remember? And no gentiles we're not included in Israel in the old testament. They would not let them into the congregation of the lord.
Once God established the covenant with Israel. They seperated themselves from the "mixed multitude".

NEHEMIAH 13:1-3

"On that day they read in the book of Moses in the audience of the people; and therein was found written, that the Ammonite and the Moabite (Gentiles) should not come into the congregation of God for EVER; because they met not the children of Israel with bread and with water, but hired Balaam (tried to curse them) against them, that he should curse them:

howbeit our God turned the curse into a blessing. Now it came to pass, when they had heard the law, that they "separated from Israel" "all the mixed multitude."

Sir with all due respect and (no saying you're wrong is not disrespectful. There is one truth here and one of us are wrong and it's ok to say so if you feel that way. But the thing is I have scripture proof backing up what I'm saying. With all due respect you don't. And you don't know the history of Israel.

Antiethical? Lol that's your opinion. God don't care about "ethics" he will have mercy and compassion on whom he chooses. Who are you to say his ways are antiethical? That's why you're having a hard time understanding this truth. I get it it's hard to believe something was for you all your life to one day find out wait a minute? This is referring to somebody else. That whole bible is the book of the hebrews and their relationship with God and their struggles with the nations who opposed them. Period.

Matter fact that's what the name ISRAEL means.

"He is a prince of power with God, though he wrestles with God? But with men (all people) he has prevailed)

Now again. The Israelites a large portion became GENTILES in the old covenant. You don't want to accept that because that changes the way you have to look at things. And you have to go back to the drawing board on what you believe and have been teaching. It's ok. It was prophecied to happen.

As it is written:

JEREMIAH 16:19

"O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto you from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers (ancestors) have inherited LIES, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit."

Now regarding your disagreement about Israelites being gentiles in the new testament.

Here's where it's PROVEN biblically where they became GENTILES in the old covenant. THIS chapter is what PAUL referenced in Romans 9 when he said "Jews and gentiles". He referred to the gentiles as "ye are not my people". He references OSEE (HOSEA) this chapter right here below. It's a significant chapter and key to the true understanding.

HOSEA 1:1-11

"The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.

(Notice there's a separation between Judah and Israel) there's kings of Judah and King of Israel. That's because at THIS time the nation of Israel was SPLIT into TWO NATIONS, TWO KINGDOMS. they were NOT one nation. Judah was the JEWS
(3 tribes) and Israel was the other 9 tribes.

Now keep reading and watch what happens to ISRAEL compared to JUDAH.)

"The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto you a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land has committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD."

(This is representation of idolatry)

"So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son. And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to "cease the kingdom of the house of Israel".

"And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow (strength) of Israel in the valley of Jezreel."

"And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Lo-ruhamah: for I will no more HAVE MERCY upon the house of Israel;

but I will utterly take them away. But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. "

(Ok now it's getting to the nitty gritty. See where God said he would no more have mercy on the house of Israel. But he would save Judah? (By Christ he's referring to, this is where the kingdom of Israel (the northern kingdom wound up cut off from God and his covenant. Thus becoming GENTILES (spiritually) it's funny you say it makes no sense to be an Israelite spiritually gentiled but it makes sense to be a spiritual Israelite? I'm sorry man but the truth is right here. Yes there were spiritually GENTILED ISRAELITES. It's not done keep reading it's going to be stone cold cut and dry)

"Now when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son. Then said God, Call his name Lo-ammi: for "ye are not my people", and I will not be your God".

(What does it mean when God says I will not be your God? That means you are A GENTILE. God said to that portion of the nation of Israel I will NOT BE YOUR GOD and you are NOT MY PEOPLE. That meant they became "lossed" at this point. They were no longer considered israelites and no longer apart of the old covenant. Thus "GENTILES" they became over the centuries. (This didn't happen over night. The kingdom of Israel had BEEN cut off for centuries before Christ came. This is why the Samaritan woman (an Israelite in the flesh, but gentiled from the old covenant) was perplexed a JEW (one of the kingdom of Judah) was talking to a "gentile". For centuries the Jews did not deal with them.

However.....God's plan was not to keep them cut off forever. It was only temporary until Christ came and ushered in the NEW covenant which granted forgiveness of all sins even idolatry which granted them a chance to be "GRAFTED BACK IN" to the family and the NEW covenant under Christ)

"Yet the number of the "children (descendants) of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, (gentiles) there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.(ISRAEL)

Then shall the children of Judah (JEWS) and the children of Israel (Northern kingdom) be gathered TOGETHER and appoint themselves one head, (Christ) and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel."

(Now lets get what Paul says in Romans 9. You said earlier how the gentiles are the number of sand of the sea? That's cuz you have Romans 9 in your head but ye know not that he was referencing the chapter I just posted and broke down to you in hosea. But in Romans 9 he refers to them as GENTILES where as in in Hosea 1 God referred to them as the kingdom and house of Israel.

But first let me address the Israelite in the flesh subject too that you are trying to refute. It's in the sane chapter. This whole chapter of Romans 9 proves it's about Israel in the flesh. When it says not all israel are Israel? That does not mean a non blood related israelite can be an Israelite. You have your own nation. Honor it. Leave israels alone. God's Israel is Israelites IN THE FLESH first , who try to keep his commandments and who accept Christ who fulfilled the law of sacrafice for their sins to be forgiven. An Israelite that does not accept Christ is not counted as an Israelite until they do.)

ROMANS 9:1-5

"I (PAUL) say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; (PAUL said my KINSMEN according to the FLESH (Bloodline) who are ISRAELITES) so this is about the bloodline man, open your eyes.)

"to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen"

(Paul just said CHRIST came CONCERNING THE FLESH (bloodline) of the Israelites. To whom belongs the adoption. (That's the grafting in man) the adoption belongs to ISRAEL ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. The glory which is the kingdom of God to inherit power over. Belongs to the Israelites according to the flesh. The covenants which is the old and new. Which the new is CHRIST. Belongs to Israelites according to the flesh. The law the commandments belong to Israel according to the flesh. The services of God, the promises, ect all belongs to the Israelites according to the FLESH.

That's what Paul JUST said. How can you possibly say otherwise? With proof? And not just your emotions. I'm proving my case with scripture.

Now back to the spiritually gentiled israelites topic.

Romans 9:23-27

"and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, (Jacob) which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, (which is us) whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, (Judah) but also of the Gentiles? (The house of Israel)

(Remember God said he would save Judah. But Israel he would not be their God. So that means ISRAEL NEEDED A SAVIOR because they were in hot water with God for he turned his back on that SECTION of the nation. The Jews thought he was only dealing with them though come Christ. But Paul is saying no. We have work to do it's not just about us, remember the prophet HOSEA what he said would happen to the house of Israel?)


"As he saith also in Osee, (HOSEA) I will call them MY PEOPLE, which were NOT my people; And her beloved, (Your God) which was not beloved. (Not your God)

"And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; There shall they be called the children of the living God.

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:"

See he even clarifies at the end who he's talking about. This whole chapter of Romans 9 started off about Israel according to the flesh. Then it went on about the story of Jacob and Esau saying Jacobs bloodline is a vessel of mercy glory and riches and Esau was a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction. Saying shall we say God has done evil? Cuz he chose Jacob already before they were born.

Paul says God forbid for he will have mercy and compassion on whom he will..the clay can't command the potter to do anything. The clay can't say "why am I this way?". That's what Romans 9 explains it is what it is. Just Accept it for it's a much easier road then rejecting the will of God.

Then later on down it gets into the "Jews and gentiles" which he references to HOSEA calling the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL (gentiles) In Romans 9.

So yes you stand corrected ISRAELITES were considered GENTILES in the new testament.

I said in am earlier post the tribe of EPHRAIM would become "a multitude of "nations".

Ephraim is who was cut off. Ephraim was the head tribe of northern kingdom of Israel like Judah is for the southern kingdom of Israel.

The aliases for the northern kingdom were "Israel, the kingdom of Israel, the house of Israel, Ephraim, Samaria, ye are not my people, gentiles. Those were the aliases of the northern kingdom of Israel which consisted of 9 TRIBES. So most of the nation had no God before Christ sacraficed himself granting them a chance to be forgiven of God. And be back in the family covenant.

So again.."I am not SENT but unto the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL" when he said that he was testing the gentiled Israelite "canaanite" woman. Of her faith. And she passed. Though his mission was to only establish Judah at that time. God said raise up the tents of Judah FIRST. So that's why he said don't go into the way of the "gentiles" "Galilee of the gentiles" this was where alot of those Israelites who had no God dwelled. It wasn't time for them to get the gospel yet. He had to establish the Jews first and get enough of them to buy into the new covenant and him.

ROMANS 3:1-2

"What advantage then has the Jew? (Kingdom of Judah) or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."

Jews are the leaders of all israel. An Israelite from the northern kingdom is NOT A JEW. Only an Israelite who descends from the tribe of Judah
(& Benjamin & Levi.)

ROMANS 1:16
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, (kingdom of Judah) and also to the "Greek." (Israelite gentiles)

Point of that last two scriptures was the fact that God wanted to establish the Jews FIRST with the new testament gospel. Christ did not deal with anyone but Jews primarily until he resurrected.

It was always a family matter. With the Jews first then a family matter with the rest of Israel.

I know that throws you off when you see Jews and Greeks. You're thinking Jew (all 12 tribes of Israel.....wrong) and then you're thinking Greek (non blood related Israelite, anyone out side the bloodline of israel.....wrong.)

Again APOCRYPHA. get you one man if you want to know the full story. I told you the history of the Israelites what they suffered through the greeks empire before Rome rose up. Many Israelites of the kingdom of Israel (Ephraim) were calling themselves Greeks. And Greek was another word for "gentile" which means "not God's people".

To the Jew first means (the kingdom of Judah first) as God said in HOSEA I will SAVE Judah and have mercy on Judah. Then later he would save the kingdom of Israel and call them the sons of the living God again. (The Greek) Israelite gentiles.

Romans 10:1
"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."

If you're a gentile a true gentile in the flesh. Then you can look forward to this when God's kingdom comes. You are considered a "stranger" to the Israelites and you will cleave to them and serve them in their land of Israel and new Jerusalem.

Isaiah 14:1-2

"For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set THEM in their OWN land: and the strangers (gentiles) shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors"

More then likely you descend from a nation who done evil to the Israelites. And oppressed them. THIS below is the coming kingdom of God. It does not sound like an all inclusive deal.

ISAIAH 60:12 & 14

"For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted."

"The sons (DESCENDANTS) also of them that afflicted you shall come bending unto you; and all they that despised you shall bow themselves down at the soles of your feet; and they shall call you, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel."

If Christ died for all? Why is God saying descendants of nations that done wrong to the Israelites? Will be made humble? And embarrassed. Imagine you hate someone then you're forced to bow down to them at their feet? That's a pride swallower. That's not a good feeling. These are people who will be shamed and begging for mercy.

More kingdom of God coming to earth.

ZECHARIAH 14:16-19

"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations (GENTILES in the flesh) which came against Jerusalem (the Israelites) shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, (Christ) the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

"And it shall be, that whoso will NOT (refuses to) come up of all the families (bloodlines) of the earth unto Jerusalem (Israel) to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain".

(Wait I thought if we all believe in Christ? When we die that's it were good in paradise forever? What's this? All families of earth? Being judged for refusing to obey a command of God in his kingdom? That they will suffer no RAIN in their land? This is a completely different heaven I was taught? Yikes. How come no pastor teaches this in Sunday school?

Hmmm........ You know what happens when your land has no rain? Oh yeah the redeemed Israelites will have DEVINE power backing them. You can be stubborn if you want and your life won't be pleasent in that day there will be many who will HATE being under the new regime of Christ and the Israelites with God backing them. They will STILL have a conscience to want to do against the commands of God. They will SIN.

They will be under the law in that day. The Israelites will not. They are redeemed. It is instilled in them they will be made perfect and cannot sin so therefore the kingdom will last forever. They will be the royal family and race of the earth ABOVE ALL PEOPLE as God said in DUETERONOMY 7:6)

"And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the PUNISHMENT of ALL NATIONS that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."

Dude and THATS the kingdom of God AFTER Armageddon. How can Christ possible be here to save all people if there's still punishment in God's kingdom for ALL NATIONS that don't obey his commands.

I think you need to go back to the drawing board. Today you are speaking to a real Jew. The oracles of God were committed unto me. And you gentiles will fall in line in that day. And give my people respect.

And no we are not "white" and wear "black hats and black suits". Our skin is black though

[JehovahsWitness]

Can you answer the following ?

I explained to someone else on here those "all nations" was referring to ISRAELITE gentiles. Not actual gentiles.

Define 'actual gentile' please.

... where did they live?

JW

[PinSeeker]

The children of the promise are the descendants of Jacob man.

Yes, I agree. But then the question is -- and this seems to be the difference between us... who the real descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are... man. And the answer to that is not blood descendants of Jacob, but rather those whom the Lord calls, His elect, among which are people from every tongue, tribe and nation.

He will have mercy and compassion on whom he chooses.

Absolutely.

Who are you to say his ways are antiethical?

LOL! Is that really what you understood me to be saying? Wow. No, Roman, I'm saying your "take" on His ways is largely antithetical to the Gospel.

Now again. The Israelites a large portion became GENTILES in the old covenant.

Yeah, no again, no, they did not.

You don't want to accept that because that changes the way you have to look at things.

No, I don't want to accept that what you say about "Gentiled Israelites" because it's a ridiculous thought. There is a partial hardening on Israel right now -- God's Israel. When the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in to Israel, then the partial hardening will be removed. And in this way, all of Israel will be saved. This is what Paul says in Romans 11.

Now lets get what Paul says in Romans 9. You said earlier how the gentiles are the number of sand of the sea? That's cuz you have Romans 9 in your head...

No, it's "cuz" I have God's covenant with Abraham in my head -- and heart.

But first let me address the Israelite in the flesh subject too that you are trying to refute. It's in the sane chapter. This whole chapter of Romans 9 proves it's about Israel in the flesh. When it says not all israel are Israel? That does not mean a non blood related israelite can be an Israelite. You have your own nation. Honor it. Leave israels alone. God's Israel is Israelites IN THE FLESH first , who try to keep his commandments and who accept Christ who fulfilled the law of sacrafice for their sins to be forgiven. An Israelite that does not accept Christ is not counted as an Israelite until they do.)

This is the crux of your misunderstanding -- just who God's Israel is. I get it; you're Jewish.

I think you need to go back to the drawing board. Today you are speaking to a real Jew.

Well, again, thank you for your opinion (and now advice). Noted. I think you need to understand what Paul -- who himself was very, very Jewish -- said at the end of Romans 2:
.

"For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter." (Romans 2:28-29)

The oracles of God were committed unto me.

To begin with, yes. This is what Paul says immediately after the above:
.

"To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God." (Romans 3:2)

.
But now the oracles of God are given to all of us. Now there is no difference between Jew and Gentile -- those who have been circumcised by the heart, by the Spirit -- which is exactly what Paul goes on to say near the end of Romans 3:
.

"...is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one -- Who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith." (Romans 3:29-30)

...you gentiles will fall in line in that day. And give my people respect.

I have great respect for all folks, and much more so the people of God, Israel, Jew and Gentile alike.

Grace and peace to you, Roman.

[Roman Yuriel]

...Matthew 15:24

"But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.- Jesus Christ.

...

I was speaking about this:

Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Mat. 28:19-20

I explained to someone else on here those "all nations" was referring to ISRAELITE gentiles. Not actual gentiles.

Define 'actual gentile' please.

The definition of Gentile means "nations". Biblically it's referring to nations that God is not dealing with according to his covenant. Gentile is in a nutshell "a nation that don't have a God". Yes God created all people but he is God to one people. He made a covenant to one people the nation of Israel. This people he chose to be above all people. And he wants them to rule the world in righteousness according to his will over all nations.

That's the israelites role in earth. The rest of the nations role is that of servants to God's government which are the israelites.

When I say actual gentiles? I mean non blood related israelites. Egyptians, (ham) romans (edom), ethiopians, (ham) babylonians, (ham) assyrians, moabites (shem), ammonites, (shem) person's, grecians(greeks) (edom) idumeans (edom) ect these are "actual" gentiles.

The ISRAELITES (only 9 tribes) at one point in time however BECAME Gentiles because God cut them off from him. He declared them no more HIS PEOPLE (but not forever though) just temporary as his plan was to send christ to SAVE the whole nation all 12 tribes not just the Jews (3 tribes)

He came to establish the Jews FIRST though yes. THEN God's plan was to send the Jews who are in christ now to go teach the rest of Israel which at that time now we're "a multitude of nations" (gentiles) Ephraim was prophesied to turn into a "multitude of nations". Ephraim was the head tribe of the northern kingdom of Israel. Under him was 9 tribes of israel. They were the larger section during the split in israel. God referred to them as "kingdom of israel" or "Ephraim". These are they he cut off from the OLD COVENANT. Because of their idolatry and mixing with the "actual" gentiles. God said you want to be like them so much? Ok. You are no longer apart of my covenant anymore.

I will remain with the Jews section though (Judah) which was Judah Benjamin and Levi tribes of Israel. And together those 3 made up the JEWS. He's means (Judah) (jew-dah)
He said he will save Judah. But not by war.

That meant he was sending christ. In the end God said he would not forget the kingdom of israel though and those he cut off from the old covenant. He would call them the sons of the living God AGAIN in the end.

Why? Because christ ushered In a NEW COVENANT. Meaning the old was no longer and that meant those israelites who had been cut off from the old one? Had a chance to be GRAFTED back in to the family and be apart of the new covenant which granted forgiveness of all those sins mainly of idolatry and forsaking their God. They now had a second chance through jesus to be apart of the children of promise again (The Israelites)
.
Sorry but it had nothing to do with "actual" gentiles. They never were apart of any covenant with God. Israel is the only nation he declared his "love" (oath) to. And established a covenant with. Israel is the only bloodline God gave his devine laws to. He didn't give the commandments to the gentiles. He gave them to Israel and stats in amos 3 that israel is the only FAMILY HE KNOWS therefore he will Judge israel according to their sins.

SO ISRAEL needed a savior and redeemer. By the time christ came? Israel was not on the blessed side of God. They were on the cursed side. Lost their power and kingdom and dominion. Israel fell. They went into captivity and oppression nation after nation God allowed them to get above them in society. When the promise was if israel abodes in my covenant? I will set them up in power and glory above all nations.

By the time christ came. Babylonians had them oppressed, assyrians, persians, medians, grecians (the greeks) and then time and the roman empire. Which gained governmental authority in israel (jerusalem) during the time of christ.

Israel was supposed to had suffered NONE OF THAT. They were cursed by God. They NEEDED Christ so they could be redeemed and put back on too which is their rightful inheritance from God. But now they have to wait until the gentiles time be fulfilled (the "actual" gentiles")

Jews wanted the kingdom restored to them when christ was there but he told them sorry you all have to wait and wait a long time too until the gentiles time be fulfilled and everything in daniel 7 is fulfilled.

We're in the last days now for sure. And the gentiles (nations) times in power are almost up. God said the earth was given into the hands of the wicked.

Look around. All the nations who are ruling? most of them are idolatrous societies. And even Catholicism and "christianity" are idolatrous and deceptive religions telling half truths and twisting other truths and causing us to celebrate ancient old pagan traditions that they put christ name on which is blasphemy, to help cover it up and make it appear acceptable. (Christmas and easter, I.E.) are pagan traditions not inspired by the God of Israel.

Point is God's bringing it all down and he will war with all nations to redeem his people israel and establish his government in the world over all nations. Which he wants israel to posses the power and control over with christ

That's their gift of salvation. Rulership in God's kingdom on earth. Eternal life and glory and to be served and respected and revered by all nations.

Yes that is the correct doctrine of the bible. And no it is not "All inclusive" that is a doctrine of devil's. Habakkuk 2 tells you bringing all nations together is not a good idea. God is about separation and organization and government believe it or not. What america and europe places of democracy are doing are not inspired by God.

His kingdom will be ran like this:

Israelites in the flesh who are in christ (and yes we do know exactly who they are today) will be redeemed. Tooken away from destruction in armageddon I believe christians call it "the rapture" like the end of the movie the knowing with nicholas cage? I loved that scene. The bible does not call if the rapture that word does not exist in the bible. It's referred to as the "taking up".

The chariots of the angels (ufos) (see ezekiel 1) or the "clouds" or "whirlwinds". These are vehicles of transportion for the angels. They will come and yes I know this isn't popular to say because we all have been brainwashed to believe this applies to all of us. Sadly it dies not as God said the gentiles will come from the ends of the earth admitting that they have inherited lies from their ancestors. Yeah that sucks but that's what happens when SATAN has power over the world he lies and decieves so now you have to do a complete 180 and turn back around from false doctrine . God will have mercy and compassion on whom he wills.

I do however believe that he will find favor in the nations they will be needed for his kingdom to build it up. So they will have plenty to do and plenty of life to live should they obey the laws of God in that day. They will enjoy life. I believe that good people in general who admit the truth and show respect to God and his people the israelites? And lead a primarily righteous life overall will have a place in God's kingdom.

The wicked will be destroyed in armageddon and those who refuse to obey the laws of God in his kingdom will be judged accordingly. Just like we are judged in america or anywhere else where we break the laws we suffer certain judgments . Same case in God's kingdom. Only it's God's laws that will be obeyed not man's.

Now as for the taking up? That only applies to the israelites in christ. The resurrection only applies to israelites in christ. Sorry but that's just what it is. The angels will gather the israelites from anywhere in earth even in outer space if they're out there according to scripture. And bring them to the wilderness during armageddon for protection. While christ the angels and some of the israelites will fight against the nations taking down their power and governments.

It's called "the year of my redeemed" (isaiah 63) this won't happen In a day this will be going on for a while destruction and chose. Many will give themselves up and surrender . But majority won't they will fight and be killed.

Then christ will orchestrate and give every one their rewards and set up government and organize the controlling and governing of all the people left in the earth after armageddon.

And then the new world will begin and new jerusalem will be built by the "actual" gentiles.

The streets of gold and all of that? Yeah that's ISRAELS thank you very much. And the real gentiles will build it up. Israel won't lift a finger they're done in that day they're curse has been fulfilled. It's all about peace and redemption in that day whatever work they do is cuz they WANT TO DO IT but they won't be commanded to work for other nations. They'll be sinless, perfect, apex in strength and speed. Glorious in apparel, and protected by angels, they will be revered. And a gentiles place if they're smart is to just bow and give respect and obey the commands if they want to continue living and enjoying their lives and have families and joy.

That's what's coming to earth.

So in conclusion to answer your question. Actual gentiles are non blood related israelites.

Gentiles in regards to salvation in christ? Was referring to israelites who had been cut off from the old covenant with God but in accepting christ they are no longer considered gentiles.

Folks are having a hard time accepting the israelites spiritual Gentile thing here. Because it challenges hardcore the whole christ died for all people false doctrine. I'm sorry I'm not trying to be "blasphemous" just real and telling it how it is. I feel it's blasphemy at this point to try and usurp the israelites and say you have a piece of their inheritance. No you do not. Live your lives respect God and christ and the israelites. Bless them. And you will be blessed. Curse them and you will be cursed.

But you do not have a piece of the inheritance of their bloodline God promised to THEM and THEIR ancestors.

Come out of "church" and teach the truth. That you might be blessed and have a place in God's kingdom as a servant. Humble yourself. You want to be apart of it. But you do have an authority figure In this world and no it's not JUST christ. The israelites are your superiors too. (Not at the moment, but In the day if redemption? Yes you will bow)

[JehovahsWitness]

The definition of Gentile means "nations". Biblically it's referring to nations that God is not dealing with according to his covenant. Gentile is in a nutshell "a nation that don't have a God".

Ok so in Jesus day (and later in the Apostle Pauls day) where did these people live?



JW

[Revelations won]

Dear Roman Yuriel,

Thank you for your opening post. While it may be quite lengthy, it does contain many very interesting points of doctrine and also poses many questions which need correct answers. I suspect you will observe a vast variety of responses, some which may be correct or otherwise.

I will try to respond on just a few at a time.

First you should remember that Israel or the "house of Israel" consists of twelve different tribes of which the tribe of Israel is but one tribe.

Second you should observe that almost all nations on the earth were idol worshiping nations. From what I observe it appears that Abraham was a faithful soul who made a sacred covenant with God or more correctly stated as far as I know he was the only one at that time who was willing to make this sacred covenant with the living God. He was promised in that covenant that all nations of the earth would be blessed through his lineage. That is very incredible! How and in what manner was or is this being accomplished? What are those blessings? Within the fourth generation from Abraham we have the 12 tribes of Israel.There were periods of faithfulness and periods of apostasy among the tribes. The kingdom was divided, and yet notwithstanding all this the Lord has shown in scripture that in the latter days he would set his hand agin the second time to gather all Israel. When was this work commenced? By whom?

Since Israel was scattered among all nations and there are 10 of those tribes of Israel who are lost from our knowledge at this time, I would ask how will all the be gathered or restored? How will they be identified as to which tribe they will be identified?

According to the Bible there will be 12,000 faithful men from each of the twelve tribes who will perform a specific mission. This certainly cannot happen until they have been gathered and identified.

One other thing you have clearly brought forth is that Christ was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Good point! Christ also declared that he had other sheep who were not of this fold (meaning those in the land of Israel). He further declared that He would visit them and that they would hear his voice and that they also would be gathered into one fold with one shepherd. Where is there a record of his vists to these other "lost sheep of the House of Israel?

Best wishes,
RW