This question, along with similar or associated ones, has been asked, from the Gospels onwards, to this day.
Various answers have been given.
Here is a key exchange Jesus had with Jewish leaders and teachers, from John 10:
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him,
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’ (Psalm 82:6)?
35 If He called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as His very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
This is an interesting back and forth, I think.
1). What do you think about the above passage, and its speakers?
2). Is Jesus Christ the Son of God but not God the Son?
3). Or is he neither?
4). Or is he both?
Last edited by Checkpoint on Wed May 19, 2021 7:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Many of the early Christian writers (including Origen, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Hippolytus, Clement of Alexandria, Theophilus, the writer of ‘The Epistle to Diognetus,’ and even super-trinitarians Athanasius and St. Augustine of the 4th and 5th centuries) continued to use the term theos (without the article) as John sometimes did (“a god”). They saw nothing wrong with calling certain men “gods” if they were sincerely trying to follow God and be his representatives or ambassadors. Just because it sounds strange to our ears today in modern English is no reason to ignore the facts!
This is a fact acknowledged by even most trinitarian experts:
Some of these trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, faithful Israelite kings, etc.) and God’s angels as gods (or a god) include:
1. Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, “Hints and Helps...,” Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;
2. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew & Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;
3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133, Tyndale House Publ., 1984;
4. Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208, Bethany House Publ., 1982;
5. Hastings’ A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;
6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;
7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;
8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; & p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;
9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; & Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;
10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7; 82:1; Jn 10:34; 1970 ed.;
11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;
12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;
13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, Baker Book House, 1992;
14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press, 1975;
15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 and Ps. 82:6);
16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);
17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown
(John 10:34-36);
18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);
19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).
20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), - p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.
21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.
22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.
23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.
24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.
25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.
26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.
27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.
(also John 10:34, 35 - CEV: TEV; GodsWord; The Message; NLT; NIRV; .)
And, of course, the highly respected and highly popular Jewish writer, Philo, had the same understanding for “God”/“a god” about the same time the NT was written.
And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus; the writer of “The Epistle to Diognetus”; and even super-trinitarians St. Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding for “a god.”
Last edited by tigger 2 on Tue May 18, 2021 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Checkpoint wrote: ↑Mon May 17, 2021 5:57 am
This question, along with similar or associated ones, has been asked from the Gospels to this day.
Various answers have been given.
Here is a key excange Jesus had with Jewish leaders and teachers, from John 10:
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him,
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’ (Psalm 82:6)?
35 If He called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as His very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
This is an interesting back and forth, I think.
1). What do you think about the above passage, and its speakers?
2). Is Jesus Christ the Son of God but not God the Son?
3). Or is he neither?
4). Or is he both?
He is clearly, by his own words, the Son of God. To say anything else is twisting and adding to what Jesus said.
.
The only reason that Yahashua is called or labeled or existing as a Son - is only and purely because of his humanity and fleshy nature that which God Spirit fully inhabited.
Spiritual Sons and daughters are not Born to Spirits = Spirits do not conceive children among themselves or of themselves
The natural, fleshly, and human sons are born to human beings as conceived children, not to Spirits. Sprits do not have sons. This simply is not a Biblical Godly aspect of God's nature.
Though Yahashua was conceived " O U T - O F " his father - The Holy Spirit
as - - Mat 1:20 Mary - that which is conceived in her is
εκ EX / OUT - - OF
" O U T - O F " the Holy Spirit.
The Greek word is - εκ - exiting out of...
- as both man and Gods spirit. - in Yahashua.
The Spirit of Yahashua, - his spiritual identity, this was not God's son - this was God himself. - The Holy Spirit. it was the human nature of the SON that was God's son.
The Spiritual nature was God's Holy Spirit himself. - The Anointing / Christ.
In other words - the Spiritual Identity of Yahashua was - ETERNAL LIFE / the Holy Spirit.
Yahashua simply breathed upon you - and you were filled with the Holy Spirit by breathing in his breath.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
The reason the Son and his followers have the same God is because the Bible says that God MORPHED himself into the MORPH of a man and though he judged and AUTHORIZED himself - no SEIZURE nor CAPTURING of the ability to be EQUALLY GOD.
Php 2:6 Yahoshua " who - being IN the form / MORPH of God.
though he judged and AUTHORIZED himself - NO SEIZURE nor CAPTURING of the ability and power to be EQUALLY GOD here on earth - as a human man.
But God literally CHANGED his form - he MORPHED / CHANGED himself and made himself EMPTY of the position and power of God and void of EQUALITY of being God and - made himself into a CHANGED, ALTERED, MODIFIED MORPH of God, manifesting - changing himself as a man and made himself as a servant of God / as a man - here on the earth.
UNTIL his enemies were defeated.
And this is where Trinitarians approach the steps leading to the door and they take one single step and declare they have entered through the door. But there are many steps to get to the door.
This is called Trinitarian " one step theology " they continually never never move beyond step one.
We have seen clearly that Trinitarians completely ignore the original manuscripts, as they go about FOCUSING ONLY upon a special few / select LIMITED list of altered and CHANGED verses.
They had to literally add and delete and alter many words in their translation.
They even left a number of the words in Greek and Italian and completely refused to translate many words over into the English language.
We see again another Trinitarian mistranslation here in Joh 5: verse 18.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Verse :18 BY THIS THEN MORE SOUGHT HIM, THE JEWS TO KILL, THAT NOT ONLY BREAKING THE SABBATH BUT ALSO THE FATHER IS HIS OWN, SAYING THE GOD EQUALED HIMSELF, MAKING HIM GOD.
This is how the Trinitarian Translators changed the verse.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal WITH God.
The word “ with “ was never in the manuscripts, it was added or inserted into the translation.
Joh_5:18 δια By - τουτο THIS - ουν THEN - μαλλον MORE - εζητουν SOUGHT - αυτον HIM - οι THE - ιουδαιοι JEWS - αποκτειναι TO KILL - οτι THAT - ου NOT - μονον ONLY - ελυεν BREAKING - το THE - σαββατον SABBATH - αλλα BUT - και ALSO πατερα THE FATHER - ιδιον - HIS OWN - ελεγεν SAYING - τον THE - θεον GOD - ισον EQUALED - εαυτον - HIMSELF - ποιων MAKING - τω HIM - θεω GOD.
If we simply look at John 5:17 - we find that these manuscripts - all of these Greek manuscripts are worded differently than the English Catholic and Protestant Copy Cat KJV translation.
Here is the way the wording is expressed in all of the Greek Manuscripts.
But the Trinitarian Translation says - Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal WITH God.
However - the word “ WITH “ _ with God _ was never in the manuscripts, it was added or inserted into the translation.
Here is the Greek Manuscripts layout of - John 5:18 - exactly word for word……
δ ι α By - τ ο υ τ ο THIS - ο υ ν THEN - μ α λ λ ο ν MORE - ε ζ η τ ο υ ν SOUGHT - α υ τ ο ν HIM - ο ι THE - ι ο υ δ α ι ο ι JEWS - α π ο κ τ ε ι ν α ι TO KILL - ο τ ι THAT - ο υ NOT - μ ο ν ο ν ONLY - ε λ υ ε ν BREAKING - τ ο THE - σ α β β α τ ο ν SABBATH - α λ λ α BUT - κ α ι ALSO π α τ ε ρ α THE FATHER - ι δ ι ο ν - HIS OWN - ε λ ε γ ε ν SAYING - τ ο ν THE - θ ε ο ν GOD - ι σ ο ν EQUALED - ε α υ τ ο ν - HIMSELF - π ο ι ω ν MAKING - τ ω HIM - θ ε ω GOD.
All of the manuscripts that exist are perfectly identical word for word.
(Greek NT - Apostolic Bible Polyglot ) δια τουτο ουν μαλλον εζητουν αυτον οι Ιουδαιοι αποκτειναι οτι ου μονον ελυε το σαββατον αλλα και πατερα ιδιον ελεγεν τον θεον ισον εαυτον ποιων τω θεω
(Greek NT - New Testament manuscripts ) διὰ τοῦτο οὖν μᾶλλον ἐζήτουν αὐτὸν οἱ ᾿Ιουδαῖοι ἀποκτεῖναι, ὅτι οὐ μόνον ἔλυε τὸ σάββατον, ἀλλὰ καὶ πατέρα ἴδιον ἔλεγε τὸν Θεόν, ἴσον ἑαυτὸν ποιῶν τῷ Θεῷ.
(Greek NT - Byzantine Text) δια τουτο ουν μαλλον εζητουν οι ιουδαιοι αποκτειναι οτι ου μονον ελυεν το σαββατον αλλα και πατερα ιδιον ελεγεν τον θεον ισον εαυτον ποιων τω θεω
(Greek NT - Textus Receptus) δια τουτο ουν μαλλον εζητουν αυτον οι ιουδαιοι αποκτειναι οτι ου μονον ελυεν το σαββατον αλλα και πατερα ιδιον ελεγεν τον θεον ισον εαυτον ποιων τω θεω
(Greek NT - Wescott Hort ) δια τουτο ουν μαλλον εζητουν αυτον οι ιουδαιοι αποκτειναι οτι ου μονον ελυεν το σαββατον αλλα και πατερα ιδιον ελεγεν τον θεον ισον εαυτον ποιων τω θεω.
The Greek word “ with “ was not in the original message to say Yahoshua had made himself equal with God and it is written originally as “ BUT ALSO THE FATHER IS HIS OWN, SAYING GOD EQUALED HIMSELF, MAKING HIM GOD “
G2398 - ἴδιος - idios / id'-ee-os - Meaning = To self, that is, one's own; by implication private or separate: - As - , when they were alone, apart, aside, - thine, your) own (business), private (-ly), proper, severally, their (own).
Yahoshua was not just saying that The father was simply his father but the word “ idios “ is used - Meaning == OWNERSHIP / private, separate belonging. Not just being a son of the father but the Father was literally “ Himself as his own production, his own belonging, ownership - the Father was his personality - belonging to him….. The Father is MY OWNERSHIP Belonging to me personally / MINE -
We see that the Greek word - G2398 - ἴδιος - idios / id'-ee-os - does not mean simply the meaning that God was “ HIS FATHER “ but THE FATHER WAS HIS OWN, as in ownership - belonging alone to him and HIM ALONE. - in this context ……
This is why they wanted to kill him.
Yahashua claimed to be God - not equal with God - this is a Trinitarian deception
in fact he declared his father was greater - because he was go to the Father. -
the throne - back to the Father from where he originated.
Trinitarians attempt to change so much of the bible to push the message to say that the SON is Eternal, Co Eternal, Co Equal and - Co Omnipresent.
While denying the Spiritual Identity that truly had exited out of God's Spirit as God himself.
God - the ONE deity morphed and manifested as a servant and son on earth was to return back again upon the throne - back to the Father - back into God the origin.
Jesus has been the same ALWAYS. He was not the equal of the Father when he returned to heaven. He remained the same as he always was.
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever." (Hebrews 13:8)
It is obvious when we read I Corinthians 11:3: "...The head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God." This was AFTER Christ returned to heaven. So he was not any higher when he went back. He was and is still under the superior headship of God, the Father, Jehovah.
